quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm not sure that it's a clever argument to claim that it's better to believe in "something". There's a long list of murderous ideologues who all believed in "something" when the entire world would have been far better off had they believed in nothing. Self proclaimed believers in ideologies and belief systems that claim to be absolutely right have far more blood on their hands than nihilists.

I fail to see any merit in the argument that it's better to believe in one version of a fairy tale than to with hold judgement until the question is resolved. I do see a lot of potential dangers in this position, and am reminded of those dangers every time a religious fundamentalist (of whatever hue) insists against all reason that their particular fairy tale is the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth and threatens to kill anyone who disrupts their childish certainties.

Sure there is a "long list of murderous ideologues who all believed in "something"" but then what about the even longer list of those who believed in "something" and were not "murderous ideologues" and whose belief changed the world for the better? An inconvenient truth?

Examples ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making.

The distinction is that the Big Bang is based on empirical evidence and measurement which leave an open ended possibility as and when new data comes in. Whereas Creationism(acknowledging your concerns about the word but you gave me no alternative) is derived from the thoughts and perceptions of desert wanderers circa ten centuries BCE, and in competition with other creation mythologies from other parts of the world. The original conjurers of Genesis are not likely to come back and provide us with new data, not that they had any to begin with. So, Genesis is at a dead end. But we do not yet know the end of the story of the Big Bang. Bottom line is that you are unable to defend your position without pivoting off Evolution of the Universe and Evolution of Life in the Universe. Both are continuing adventures at the moment. In trying to defend your position you are obliged to either criticize science or borrow from science. That is an intellectually dishonest endeavor and no longer worthy engaging. Until you stop depending on the "god of the gaps" or the "god who could also do that" your arguments are no longer interesting. I hope we meet again in a different thread. I am convinced you are a pleasant enough fellow but we have exhausted the topic here. Cya!!![:)]

You ever stop to think how those “desert wanderers circa ten centuries BCE” without all your “empirical evidence and measurement“ and when all the other competing creation mythologies were talking about the backs of turtles, crocodiles and elephants and such, were able to come up with an order of creation that took “scientists” with all their “empirical evidence and measurement”, thousands of years to come up with and call “Evolution”? A lucky guess?

As for having to “either criticize science or borrow from science” to “defend my position”, you fail to realize that if God hadn’t put it there, there would be nothing for your “scientists” to measure, thus you and they are borrowing their “science” from God. Didn’t you say that was an “intellectually dishonest endeavor”?

As for; “Until you stop depending on the "god of the gaps" or the "god who could also do that" your arguments are no longer interesting.”; so, you want me to stop believing in God so I can be interesting to you?

Thanks but no thanks, being interesting to you is not that important

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm not sure that it's a clever argument to claim that it's better to believe in "something". There's a long list of murderous ideologues who all believed in "something" when the entire world would have been far better off had they believed in nothing. Self proclaimed believers in ideologies and belief systems that claim to be absolutely right have far more blood on their hands than nihilists.

I fail to see any merit in the argument that it's better to believe in one version of a fairy tale than to with hold judgement until the question is resolved. I do see a lot of potential dangers in this position, and am reminded of those dangers every time a religious fundamentalist (of whatever hue) insists against all reason that their particular fairy tale is the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth and threatens to kill anyone who disrupts their childish certainties.

Sure there is a "long list of murderous ideologues who all believed in "something"" but then what about the even longer list of those who believed in "something" and were not "murderous ideologues" and whose belief changed the world for the better? An inconvenient truth?

Examples ?

You're kidding right? [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making.

Well then you make our point too. With observable phenomena, with measurable distinctions of its nature always being researched, we have a cause to celebrate...the scientific research into the origin of existence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
When stipulating instead that a god created all of this (6000 years ago ?) and as told only by historical hearsay, then there is little cause to celebrate. Nothing to see...observe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Wait, I just thought. A whole new profile 'God of kinky pleasure'..yea, that's the ticket. I'll be Phallus, the God of kinky, sexual pleasure. Thoughts already spring to mass quantities of virginal nuns coming to my neighborhood for 'spiritual' gatherings to learn the pleasures of God. (me)
Better to believe in something...rather than nothing. It just might work.

quote:

As for; “Until you stop depending on the "god of the gaps" or the "god who could also do that" your arguments are no longer interesting.”; so, you want me to stop believing in God so I can be interesting to you?

Thanks but no thanks, being interesting to you is not that important.

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Christian bashing is a big sport for many non-believers.
I wish one of the non-believers would tell me why they love to bash and trash Christians, but not Muslims.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Christian bashing is a big sport for many non-believers.
I wish one of the non-believers would tell me why they love to bash and trash Christians, but not Muslims.

Because, Marini, in the history of the United States and continuing even today, non-believers have been bashed and thrashed by Christians. You didn't know? Really? You have to be kidding.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

So ... you have mo more forgiveness than Christians... no moral high ground for you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Christian bashing is a big sport for many non-believers.
I wish one of the non-believers would tell me why they love to bash and trash Christians, but not Muslims.

Because, Marini, in the history of the United States and continuing even today, non-believers have been bashed and thrashed by Christians. You didn't know? Really? You have to be kidding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
...
In fact, usually the opposite is true. It is the 'god-fearing' allegedly devout practitioners that all throughout history, have been violent subscribers to such spiritual despotism and fascism.
...

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ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
...
In fact, usually the opposite is true. It is the 'god-fearing' allegedly devout practitioners that all throughout history, have been violent subscribers to such spiritual despotism and fascism.
...

You must know that there have been atheists that have been violent despots as well.

The problem is not religion or atheism the problem is that mankind is rotting at the core and something has to be done about it.

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

So ... you have mo more forgiveness than Christians... no moral high ground for you?

Butch, that's what they all do on here!!
They lump us all together, and try to blame shit that happened hundreds of years ago on us.

What makes it even crazier, is we are all different.
Christians run the gamut---the possibilities are limitless.

They throw us all in the same pot.

The only thing, MOST of us have in common, is we BELIEVE in a higher power.

Newsflash!
ALL BELIEVERS ARE NOT THE SAME!!!!!
We are not a monolithic group!!

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

So ... you have mo more forgiveness than Christians... no moral high ground for you?

Butch, that's what they all do on here!!
They lump us all together, and try to blame shit that happened hundreds of years ago on us.

What makes it even crazier, is we are all different.
Christians run the gamut---the possibilities are limitless.

They throw us all in the same pot.

The only thing, MOST of us have in common, is we BELIEVE in a higher power.

Newsflash!
ALL BELIEVERS ARE NOT THE SAME!!!!!
We are not a monolithic group!!

hmmm but its ok to lump
ALL non believers....in the same 'pot'?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Most if not all of the non-believers/atheists/etc. here do not want to really discuss why we ARE believers.
They just want to either put believers down, ask for proof, or ridicule believers.
It is a tad fascinating.
Why do so many non-believers get upset over believers?
Often the mantra is, "There is no GOD, there is no GOD, you must PROVE there is a GOD to me."
At that point, I just laugh.

I am not going to get upset because someone does not "believe", why should I?
I for one, could not make it without my faith in GOD.
Keep the faith.
[sm=mrpuffy.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Marini I understand some of the animosity... When I hear hypocrites like Trump and conservative politicians and religious leaders using Christianity as an excuse to discriminate against innocents it turns my stomach. But i know there are good, kind, compassionate, Christians that do not deserve the same disdain.

Then you have people that like to call our beliefs fantasy and do their best to hurt us... for no reason. They are the true assholes that do not deserve to be acknowledged in any serious discussion.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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As for; “Until you stop depending on the "god of the gaps" or the "god who could also do that" your arguments are no longer interesting.”; so, you want me to stop believing in God so I can be interesting to you?

Thanks but no thanks, being interesting to you is not that important.

Ha!Ha!Ha! . . . I love it. Wonderful answer Mr, Miles. [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Most if not all of the non-believers/atheists/etc. here do not want to really discuss why we ARE believers.
They just want to either put believers down, ask for proof, or ridicule believers.
It is a tad fascinating.
Why do so many non-believers get upset over believers?
Often the mantra is, "There is no GOD, there is no GOD, you must PROVE there is a GOD to me."
At that point, I just laugh.

I am not going to get upset because someone does not "believe", why should I?
I for one, could not make it without my faith in GOD.
Keep the faith.
[sm=mrpuffy.gif]

It is interesting how it seems a discussion that involves a belief in God will eventuality get atheists upset.

Also, I was thinking about proof the other day and I thought it is a little like trying to prove that there is such a thing as color to someone totally blind from birth.

For those who can see, they need no proof and for those who are blind, at best they can only understand intellectually but there will never be enough proof for those who will not see.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Christian bashing is a big sport for many non-believers.
I wish one of the non-believers would tell me why they love to bash and trash Christians, but not Muslims.

Because, Marini, in the history of the United States and continuing even today, non-believers have been bashed and thrashed by Christians. You didn't know? Really? You have to be kidding.