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Fantasits v realists - 7/18/2017 12:55:49 PM

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What is the difference?

And try and keep it sensible please :)

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wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/18/2017 2:10:00 PM

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The difference to me is that the realists lifestyle is sustainable in the long run - as in, over months and years.

Yep - I might want to be a slave and locked up in a cage while not being used sexually - but for me, this is basically a fantasy, because who is going to clean the toilet, cook the veggies and earn an income that pays health insurance? Not me if I'm locked in a cage - which by the way - has no access to a toilet, so who gets to clean the mess. Not me because I'm just there to serve sexually - right?

Or for a bit less extreme example - if I wanted to be a submissive who stayed at the house, serving the dominants every need, who is contributing to my retirement account, and paying for my blood pressure medicine? It sounds fabulous, but completely not sustainable. I don't want to end up homeless with no way to serve my health needs, or help my kids or husband if he becomes unable to work any more.

There are things I want from my life, and unless there is a significant other who can afford to provide these things in the long term, even if we aren't together, then some scenerios aren't going to happen. I'm submissive - but not stupid. And I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of people in this life are the same way.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/18/2017 5:06:09 PM

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Realists... are being true to themselves and in living in the lifestyle they are actually living as their authentic self 24/7/365.

Fantasists try to act out something that is foreign to them, but they want to experience a character outside of their true self so they develop 'scenes' and basically play a 'role' for an agreed upon length of time.

(in reply to kiwisub22)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/18/2017 5:19:34 PM

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I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

If you are a realist and have all your shit together you can afford fantasy, as long as you understand its limitations.

We can all enjoy periods of fantasy where we don't concentrate on real life. Much of BDSM is a necessarily a fantasy, not in the sense that it is imaginary, but in the sense that there have to be limits, so that we can be functioning, productive human beings. No matter how "lifestyle" you are, unless BDSM is your job, taking your dynamics/kinks fully into the world of work or even raising children/keeping a roof over a family's heads just doesn't entirely work. That is where the compromises come in.

Living your whole life with nothing real to ground you, or expecting someone else to do reality while you live in your fantasy, is another thing entirely. If you have someone provide for you completely and micro-manage your life, if that is your thing, there are possibilities but that is risky/abusive taken to extremes and someone has to be "responsible" and a realist.

Beyond that there are a bunch of people who fantasize about BDSM but are too anxious to take risks in their life, or people with particular fetishes that they can't find someone else to indulge. You could call these people fantasist but that might be harsh and depends on whether they are realistic about their predicaments or feel entitled. People who cannot scratch their kink but understand why are very different from people who blame everyone else for the fact that they are not getting the kink they think they deserve.

Having fantasies does not of itself make you a fantasist. Insisting everyone else lives in your fantasy world does.

(in reply to kiwisub22)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/18/2017 5:39:03 PM

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If you are a realist and have all your shit together you can afford fantasy, as long as you understand its limitations.

care to elaborate?

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wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to longwayhome)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/18/2017 9:00:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

who is going to clean the toilet, cook the veggies and earn an income that pays health insurance? Not me if I'm locked in a cage - which by the way - has no access to a toilet, so who gets to clean the mess. Not me because I'm just there to serve sexually - right?

His slave!

And she doesn't want to be locked up in the cage 24/7 anyways, so it works out beautifully. I'm with you on the 'no access to a toilet though'. The litter box thing doesn't sound that appealing, but oh well, can't have everything.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to kiwisub22)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/19/2017 4:41:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

What is the difference?

And try and keep it sensible please :)

In all seriousness, I was a fantasist for a good number of years.
My previous D/s dynamics were contrived, most of them were short-lived.
Many of them started on line in chatrooms where I enjoyed amusing the dommes with whom I interacted.
If it meant doing the furries thing, then that is what I did, for example.

It was not until after serving two tours of duty where I ended up without a domme for four years that I realized I wanted much, much more.
More as in a serious, exclusive D/s relationship dynamic.

Then I met my Mistress, and the rest is history.
With Lisa, everything became real right away, as in real-life real.
We conducted a long-distance relationship for a couple of years before I relocated from Ohio to be with her five years ago.
We got engaged last year and life could not be better in my wildest dreams, is all I can say.

-- Cub

_____________________________

"The most precious possession that ever comes to a man in this world is a woman's heart."-- J.G. Holland

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 4:53:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

If you are a realist and have all your shit together you can afford fantasy, as long as you understand its limitations.

care to elaborate?

I think it is easy to over-simplify this.

Some people might call someone a fantasist if they dream about something happening and a realist if they are "hardcore" 24/7 lifestylers. Being a fantasist however implies that you don't live in the real world.

You can afford to have fantasies and act them out if you have made sure that all of your daily living stuff is covered, which could include a roof over your head, looking after your family, being on top of your finances and making sure you stay physically and mentally healthy.

Some people however take no responsibility for making sure the daily living stuff is sorted out and mess around with a BDSM fantasy, leaving someone else to pick up the pieces. On the other hand someone who has strong kinks and well developed BDSM fantasies but decides for whatever reason not to engage in them (like wanting to stay with their partner and children) is a realist with BDSM fantasies, not a fantasist, because they understand reality and live their lives in accordance with that. They may feel unfulfilled but that is another matter. No-one promised us that life was always going to be a ball.

There are however a large number of self-entitled individuals, who are not living the BDSM filled life that they want to, and hold other people or the real world responsible for their predicament. They don't go and out and look for what they want and don't try to make connections with others, and just sit behind their computers hoping that their fantasy will fall into their laps. They are fantasists because they imagine that they are living in a world which works differently to reality and they fail to do something about it.

I don't go for the old cliche that if you are not a self-professed lifestyler, you are just a BDSM fantasist. Almost no-one can live a BDSM life 100% of the time, partly because of the need to interact competently with the rest of the world and to look after yourself. Furthermore I am not entirely convinced that you can really be someone's master or slave in true sense of the word, partly because it is illegal, apart from anything else. BDSM, particularly D/s is so full of paradoxes that there can be no one twue way with everything else being fantasy. All of it is fantasy to an extent and things that seem natural to one person can feel contrived to the next.

BDSM, unless it is just an occasional sexual kink for when you are getting bored, has to be therefore woven carefully into your life combining fantasies with reality, whilst staying realistic enough to look after yourself and avoid abusive situations just continually break you down.

In short being a fantasist isn't just about not getting any and wanting it. It's about not living in the real world, which is quite a different thing.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 9:58:19 AM

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I have fantasises too, but I am a little busy just now to type out a couple of the more basic type of fantasises that most well certainly I have had.

For a bit of your last post (and thanks for all that) I tend rightly, or wrongly, to refer to some of those you speak ill about as bad stereotypes, and it worries me where they get their ideology from. And they start propagating it as the norm to an extent it, their ideology cascades itself to all sites and forums – that’s been going on for years now, and its getting worse imo.

Abuser, and abused; to be enabled or to enable someone trapped in a lifetime of abuse. I see a lot of that.

Again ive left my thoughts open to encourage debate thoughts and opinions - look I am trying to add two half decent threads to this forum a week as the sweary forum is not for most but its great for a right good swear :)

To the original question do you think people can tell the difference or when the line becomes blurred. What if their thoughts, ideology, fantasies and wants are founded on incorrect premises and information?

_____________________________

wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to longwayhome)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 4:25:50 PM

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Thanks mate. I've got to admit that the sweary forum gets to me every now and again - now there are plenty of fantasists on there who seem to live online because the real world wont engage with their unedited views.

There's a very fine but important line between understanding someone's needs and abusing them in a way which addresses deep and dark needs while making them more whole on one hand, and just kidding yourself that you are always right and abusing them in a way that diminishes them and damages them on the other.

We all understand the fantasy stereotype of the haughty, harsh, uncaring Dom/me who makes sure that everything is all about them and breaks down their whimpering subjects who are lesser human beings in a 24/7 cycle of punishment and abuse. This is great on both sides as a fantasy but no use for the continued mental and physical health of both parties.

From a sub's point of view there is a big difference between wanting a Dom/me to care about your well-being, and topping from the bottom or looking for a "fetish delivery system". There are plenty of fantasist subs who discover too late the difference between an overbearing, abusive bully, and a Dom/me with their best interests at heart. Most of us will know someone who consciously or sub-consciously seeks out abusive partners and gets part of what they are looking for but also gets a whole lot more shit that they didn't really sign up for.

Can people always tell the difference?

I honestly don't think so, but that's not to be judgemental, both because the fantasy can be so strong and it can take time for a relationship to become obviously abusive by which time people can be in too deep. The "abuser" may also find the line between addressing someone's D/s needs and damaging them a difficult tightrope to walk, assuming of course they are not just an inadequate, nasty bastard.

We've all ignored warning signs about relationships in the past, but equally we have to guard against seeing them everywhere. Making a mistake in one direction can end in disaster, whilst making a mistake in the other can leave us being lonely all our lives.

The balance isn't always easy.

Enjoying being locked up in a cage and treated badly might be fun (not my particular favourite as it happens but it is topical) but so is having a warm shower and knowing someone loves you. Fantasy and reality woven together in one life of enhanced reality. It can happen.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 6:19:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Can people always tell the difference?

I honestly don't think so, but that's not to be judgemental, both because the fantasy can be so strong and it can take time for a relationship to become obviously abusive by which time people can be in too deep. The "abuser" may also find the line between addressing someone's D/s needs and damaging them a difficult tightrope to walk, assuming of course they are not just an inadequate, nasty bastard.

We've all ignored warning signs about relationships in the past, but equally we have to guard against seeing them everywhere. Making a mistake in one direction can end in disaster, whilst making a mistake in the other can leave us being lonely all our lives.

The balance isn't always easy.

Enjoying being locked up in a cage and treated badly might be fun (not my particular favourite as it happens but it is topical) but so is having a warm shower and knowing someone loves you. Fantasy and reality woven together in one life of enhanced reality. It can happen.

Maybe I will sound naive, but couldn't abuse bring about the desired result?
Does everyone really need or want to feel cared for and loved?

(in reply to longwayhome)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 6:33:04 PM

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why am I out there? that was you who said that about me wasnt it

Due me an explanation

_____________________________

wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to heavyblinker)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 6:49:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Can people always tell the difference?

I honestly don't think so, but that's not to be judgemental, both because the fantasy can be so strong and it can take time for a relationship to become obviously abusive by which time people can be in too deep. The "abuser" may also find the line between addressing someone's D/s needs and damaging them a difficult tightrope to walk, assuming of course they are not just an inadequate, nasty bastard.

We've all ignored warning signs about relationships in the past, but equally we have to guard against seeing them everywhere. Making a mistake in one direction can end in disaster, whilst making a mistake in the other can leave us being lonely all our lives.

The balance isn't always easy.

Enjoying being locked up in a cage and treated badly might be fun (not my particular favourite as it happens but it is topical) but so is having a warm shower and knowing someone loves you. Fantasy and reality woven together in one life of enhanced reality. It can happen.

Maybe I will sound naive, but couldn't abuse bring about the desired result?
Does everyone really need or want to feel cared for and loved?

Actually, abuse actually is the vehicle through which some people feel cared for and loved.

(in reply to heavyblinker)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 7:28:09 PM

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But if you are abused without feeling cared for or loved?

(in reply to tamaka)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 7:36:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

But if you are abused without feeling cared for or loved?

Some people feel that their role is simply to suffer. They need to feel suffering... not love or caring, just suffering.

(in reply to heavyblinker)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/20/2017 8:08:06 PM

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pussy

_____________________________

wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to heavyblinker)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/21/2017 2:15:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
<snip>
I don't go for the old cliche that if you are not a self-professed lifestyler, you are just a BDSM fantasist. Almost no-one can live a BDSM life 100% of the time, partly because of the need to interact competently with the rest of the world and to look after yourself. Furthermore I am not entirely convinced that you can really be someone's master or slave in true sense of the word, partly because it is illegal, apart from anything else. BDSM, particularly D/s is so full of paradoxes that there can be no one twue way with everything else being fantasy. All of it is fantasy to an extent and things that seem natural to one person can feel contrived to the next.

BDSM, unless it is just an occasional sexual kink for when you are getting bored, has to be therefore woven carefully into your life combining fantasies with reality, whilst staying realistic enough to look after yourself and avoid abusive situations just continually break you down.

In short being a fantasist isn't just about not getting any and wanting it. It's about not living in the real world, which is quite a different thing.

Pardon me if I misconstrue any part of what you have posted. The hour is late and this is basically a fast reply.

You can be a self-professed lifestyler and still be a fantasist who has unrealistic expectations in terms of one's personal belief system. Fantasist, not fantasizer.

My Mistress and I have both met plenty of those. Frankly, IMHO you can blame porn for contributing immensely to this sorry state of affairs, including poorly written erotica.

Take femdom porn where dominant women are portrayed as man-hating Amazon bitch goddesses, and where submissive men are portrayed as sniveling lowly worms and insufferably weak fools.

Then there is the fantastical notion that somehow dominants are imperviously superhuman beings who must be the perfect this and the perfect that at all times or else they will lose the respect of their submissives.

Or that slaves are a subhuman species unworthy of humane treatment. Surely you must be acquainted with a few folks who have expressed the desire to be treated inhumanely, who would not dare to treat an animal in the same fashion.

-- Cub

_____________________________

"The most precious possession that ever comes to a man in this world is a woman's heart."-- J.G. Holland

(in reply to longwayhome)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/21/2017 5:23:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Can people always tell the difference?

I honestly don't think so, but that's not to be judgemental, both because the fantasy can be so strong and it can take time for a relationship to become obviously abusive by which time people can be in too deep. The "abuser" may also find the line between addressing someone's D/s needs and damaging them a difficult tightrope to walk, assuming of course they are not just an inadequate, nasty bastard.

We've all ignored warning signs about relationships in the past, but equally we have to guard against seeing them everywhere. Making a mistake in one direction can end in disaster, whilst making a mistake in the other can leave us being lonely all our lives.

The balance isn't always easy.

Enjoying being locked up in a cage and treated badly might be fun (not my particular favourite as it happens but it is topical) but so is having a warm shower and knowing someone loves you. Fantasy and reality woven together in one life of enhanced reality. It can happen.

Maybe I will sound naive, but couldn't abuse bring about the desired result?
Does everyone really need or want to feel cared for and loved?

I think that question goes really deep into the paradoxes of BDSM and D/s in particular.

There is the old experiment where there were three groups of mice - one which was fed and stroked every day, one which was fed and ignored and one which was fed and given an electric shock. The mice who were ignored died significantly earlier with there being less difference in the life expectancies of the other two groups.

What no-one was able to do was to ask the shocked mice about how happy their life was, but the lesson taken from it was that unpleasant treatment is preferable to isolation.

The fact that there is a difference between a genuinely abusive relationship and BDSM is an important, if sometimes subtle, distinction however. Otherwise we stray into territory where domestic abuse is fine as long as you can play a BDSM card.

I personally love the idea of someone hurting the one they love and all the messed-upness of that, however I do think that people who believe in or receiving abuse and nothing else emotionally are going beyond SSC in what they are doing. It's akin to people with a snuff fantasy to go out and find a real murderers, people with a rape fantasy to go all out to get themselves raped for real, masochists looking for genuine sadists with no off switch, amputation fantasists meeting up with real cutters who will remove their limbs and leave them by the side of the road, age players grooming real children etc, etc.

BDSM is surely at least partly about creating a relatively safe space to do edgy things, without the sanction of intentional permanent mental or physical harm, disfiguration or death. Even for the most ardent 24/7 lifestyler there have to be some limits and some safe areas. Wanting to be "raped" is not the same as wanting to live with a rapist and if someone thinks it is they probably need help.

I'm all for YKIOK and YKINMK but condoning certain kinds of criminal behaviour (accepting that much of BDSM is technically illegal) or abuse, or encouraging someone to look for those is not my thing.

I'm not telling another adult how to live their life, but there are things I am not going to cheering on or supporting from the sidelines.

(in reply to heavyblinker)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/21/2017 5:39:14 AM

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I would be interested in reading that study... I also think that being ignored is probably much much worse than any other form of abuse.
I also remember reading a disturbing tale about a girl who would intentionally get drunk and vulnerable in sketchy areas, and whatever happened happened.

Sometimes that whole 'loving, caring' thing can be a turnoff.

(in reply to longwayhome)

RE: Fantasits v realists - 7/21/2017 6:46:28 AM

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It was referenced in a psychology book I read many years ago but it stuck with me because it felt intuitively correct. The book is in the shed unfortunately. I would have though the study was carried out in the fifties or sixties but that is just a guess. I asked my friend Google but he gave soo many mice/electric shock experiments that I fear tracking it down is too big a project - I had no idea that shocking the hell out of mice was so popular.

I get the whole "loving, caring" thing being a turn-off but that is as much style or character as opposed to intention. A fluffy/lovey-dovey type relationship with someone would be sweet enough to make me sick. I don't however want to stray into the why do some women like bastards and some men love bitches type territory. it's just too fraught with smugness and sexism.

There is a big difference between having a very direct, robust BDSM relationship that does not have obvious public displays of affection or fluffiness, and having a relationship with someone who genuinely doesn't give a shit about your health and well being. There are unusual ways to show you care, like making someone more whole by giving them the abuse they crave, whilst making sure they are healthy and in one piece. That is very different to just being a bastard. Somewhere in the small crack between the two lies the difference between BDSM and actual abuse.

Despite being told by many psychologists that BDSM is damaging stuff, carried out by damaged people, we know that it is really differently wired people seeking a non-standard sort of meaning and satisfaction in their lives with other complementary people (unless you just want a quick sexual kick which can be different thing altogether).

That doesn't mean that there isn't damaging stuff carried out by damaged people. Genuinely not giving a shit about the well-being of the people you play or live with is a red flag for me, and is quite different from consensual abuse which you both understand and know makes both of you happy and more fulfilled in your own twisted way.

(in reply to heavyblinker)

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