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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 9:51:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I'd be grateful if you could explain your thinking

It's Bosco, why are you assuming that thinking plays any part in what he posts?

Bingo.


If you retard trolls aren't howling my name, I'm not doing it right

I see that you are still either unwilling or unable to explain why you chose to post that link to a story of some creep killing a TG woman.

I suppose that one possible reason is that you saw the murderer's actions as a reasonable post-coital response to having sex with a TG woman. I would hope that not even you would stoop that low, but unless you share your reasoning for posting the sordid tale people will have no option but to speculate about your possible motives. Given your reputation, it's inevitable that some of that speculation will attribute the worst possible motives to you.

So it really would be best for all if you could tell us why you chose to post that particular story

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 10:26:01 AM   
Lucylastic


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Victims are to blame for getting beaten up by testosterone fury????

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 10:27:43 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Victims are to blame for getting beaten up by testosterone fury????

Victims are always to blame: that's the American way.
(Unless the victim is a republican, of course, in which case it's everybody else on earth's fault rather than theirs. Great, innit?)

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 11:26:58 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Victims are to blame for getting beaten up by testosterone fury????

Yes. There was some research done here about 20 years ago that recorded a large number of assaults after sex with TG women.

The guys would have sex with them, then overcome by "guilt" at having sex with a "cock in a frock" would beat the TG up. The guys held the TG responsible for "duping" them, even though the women were up front about their status in most instances. For some reason it didn't occur to the thugs to decline to have sex with the TG. And it's odd, to say the least, that their unique senses of 'right and wrong' only surfaced after they had had sex.

The case that Bosco posted seemed to replicate this finding. I have a sneaking suspicion that Bosco posted it as he thinks this is an indication of how 'normal' men react to TG women. Despite requests to share with us why he chose to post this story, Bosco has thus far declined to do so.

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 2:29:18 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR

The key reason for the transgender ban is that they are disruptive to the military if they are transiting.


Cite please



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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 2:30:38 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BoscoX




Military experts agree that TGs in the military is bad policy.



Your cite does not substantiate your lie...wanna try again sweetie?

Here's what polls say about a transgender military ban

A poll conducted less than one month prior to President Trump's decision on Wednesday to reverse an Obama-era policy that allowed transgender individuals to serve openly in the military found more people opposed than supported it.

Rasmussen surveyed 1,000 likely voters on the topic in late June, almost exactly one year after then-Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced the shift last summer.

"The U.S. Department of Defense now allows transgender people, those who identify with and want to live as the opposite sex, to serve openly in the military," the survey said. "Is this decision good for the military, bad for the military or does it have no impact?"

Only 23 percent of people surveyed responded that it was good, while 31 percent said it was bad. The largest bloc of respondents, 38 percent, said it has no impact.



Why do you think civilians should have a voice in military policy?


As the Washington Examiner reported earlier today, a Military Times poll conducted last December found 41 percent of active-duty troops believed the policy hurt military readiness, while only 12 percent said it helped.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/heres-what-polls-say-about-a-transgender-military-ban/article/2629746

Since you feel that the military should get a vote in this should the troops also be allowed to elect their officers and non-coms?


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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 2:34:49 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Greta75


Typical Liberal Logic.

So just because trans chose a career that could mean their death is an argument?

You are one of the gutless punks who refuses military service so we look upon your opinions with that in mind.

This wasn't an emotional decision for Trump but a pragmatic one.


Cite please

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 2:41:37 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BoscoX


Implementing the best policy for the military "discriminates" against all kinds of people, but that doesn't make anyone associated with such policy "haters" or whatever.

Some are too old, some are too fat. Some, like you, are far too stupid. There are many legitimate reasons to "discriminate"



Would the discrimination against blacks,mexicans, indians and women fall under your same rubric?

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 2:55:27 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Aylee


The military's job is to kill people and break stuff.


How the phoque would a rem (rear echelon motherphoquer) know anything about killing or breaking shit up.
The heel to toe ratio in the army is 10:1. which means that it takes 10 rems to support one rifleman. You sit down to pee so the army designates you as a rem. You have no clue what the infantry does and your opinions confirm this.


Can you please explain to me how having people with gender diaspora enlist is going to further that mission?


Can you explain to me how having women in the military is going to further that mission?

yes, I would love to hear how having transgenders serving openly is going to increase the effectiveness of the military.


That was the same question that was asked about you because you sit down to pee....your opinions are both ignorant and disingenuous.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 6:08:36 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

TG's need hormone pills every day. How many pints of blood in the logistics train do you want to exchange for these prescriptions when these individuals are deployed?

Actually, no, you need to tell me why an exception to the pre-existing conditions policy needs to be made for transgender individuals.

The military is an instrument of the people via the State. As such it should reflect the people it is set up to defend. So the make up of the military should mirror broader society in all its diversity. Other countries have been able to integrate TGs into the military seamlessly. There's no reason to believe the US military should be an exception in this case, despite the howls of outrage from some bigots.


So why stop at trans. Why not diabetics, cancer patients, overweight/obese, scitzophrentic, criminal, AHAD, 4 year olds, drug addicts, 80 year olds, midgets, those with lupus. . . the list goes on.

The military is not fair. The military discriminates.

The Military has finite resources (its budget) and accepting marginal groups for service reduces those resources for its core mission. The point is the Military can not accept everyone for enlistment. And trying to change that just destroys its ability to perform its core mission. For every non deployable individual, you on average need two personnel to replace them. One individual to fill their slot in their original unit and another person to cope with the additional training, log, and medical of now supporting not one individual but two.


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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/28/2017 6:19:05 PM   
mnottertail


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they like to do that after to save on healthcare for vets. this is just a small savings up front and out in the open that can incite the feebleminded nutsuckers. Cuz nobody is looking at fixing and funding veterans healthcare, at all.

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/29/2017 6:19:30 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Could she have done all of this while taking hormones that would make her physically weaker? Also, how would needing to take medication daily have affected her service? Deployed 13 times? Seal teams? Pharmacies were not just around the corner.

You're assuming that a person would be 'weaker' taking hormones or not able to live up to the standard of service. We could argue about the latter until we're blue in the face because I know transgender persons that would be more than qualified physically to pass the required PT (physical training) standards for service.

I have a bit of a hang up with the pharmacy comment as well. If a person isn't associated with the military in any way, they probably don't know how this gets handled. When it comes to military service members being sent from one place to the other, whether that be PCS, (sorry, permanent change of station) deployments, schools, field exercise, whatever, they get this neat list of stuff they have to do in anticipation of where they will arrive. One of the things on that list is a requirement for the service member to have a certain number of day's supply for any maintenance meds that are currently prescribed. How many day's worth depends on where the person is going and how long it is expected before that person will have regular access to a pharmacy or to set up meds to be mailed to their unit if they aren't at an established base. It would be the same as it would for any service member that is on high blood pressure meds, pills for high cholesterol, antidepressants, or anything else.


General comment.

Some of the posts on this thread kind of make me wonder if people really understand how this thing would work. It's not like trans* persons would be able to go to the recruiter, take the ASVAB, and once they hit in-processing for basic, the military is just going to start handing out meds like candy. There was nothing in the Obama plan that said anything about people getting a short cut to transitioning from the medical aspect that would be any different from the civilian world.

What would be different:

1) Any active duty military member would be addressed and treated as the gender they are transitioning TO. That included health care, facilities, accommodations, etc. This would be regardless of where they were in transition, including anatomy.

2) Training of service members, including health professionals and those involved in CoC, would be in motion as of July 1, 2017. It would be required quarterly, at minimum. (This is a part of what Kristen Beck said in the interview about leadership and cohesion.)

Cost.

This is just my impression. I think there are some folks who really don't understand how military medical benefits work. There's this amazing leap being made that anybody who ever serves has medical coverage for life, including prescriptions, and it just doesn't work that way. How it does work goes something like this:

1) You've done the full boat, meaning you have been a full time service member (or spouse) until retirement. To obtain retiree status, anybody joining today has to do the full thirty years. Some retirees are under what is known as the grandfather clause, which means when they joined, the requirement was twenty years.

2) You have a military caused condition that puts you at medical disability that is CAUSED by your service. This can mean a malady proven by time in service, from order of Command, etc. Skip the obvious. Think about something like what a big deal it was that Agent Orange was proven to cause cancer. It had to be linked to a person's time in service, and responsibility, for the military to give people coverage.

Mental Health Issues.

A decent portion of the military's spending on 'health' has been about mental health issues, especially PTSD, anti-anxiety, depression, and a variety of other causes. A report published just last year by the RAND Center for Military Health Policy Research says that a full 20% of people returning from duty in Iraq, Afghanastan, and similar deployments, require mental health treatment. What transgender persons would add to this is a drop in the bucket compared to the one in FIVE that need mental health care. The Army has spent more on the legal defense of people killing their intimate partners than they could ever the projected costs from trans* individuals.




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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/29/2017 6:28:08 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Donald Trump's Trans Military Ban Walks Back Promises To LGBTQ Community NBC News


Explain that to me all

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 3:49:01 AM   
tweakabelle


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Thank you LP for an informative post.

Further to your comments about costs, this is the only estimate of the cost of supplying TG specific medical services to TGs serving in the military I have seen:

"The same study estimated that medical care for individuals who transition would cost roughly $2.4-$4m annually. Every year, the Pentagon spends approximately $6bn on medical care for active members of the armed forces."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/26/trump-says-us-military-will-not-accept-or-allow-transgender-people-to-serve.

The cost of supplying appropriate medical services to TG service people is minimal. It's obvious that cost is not a serious factor. The actual costs are so insignificant they are trivial compared to the military's budget for medical services.

The whole argument about costs is a re-run of precisely the same argument that bigots trotted out against womens and gay inclusion in the military. With the benefit of several years experience, we know now that the medical costs attached to womens' and gays inclusion are not and never have been a real issue. Given the cost estimates above, there is no reason to suppose that that this spurious argument is any more valid in the case of TGs.

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 5:51:17 AM   
LadyPact


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I appreciate that. I'm not really sure of how informative it really is considering the scope of the topic.

(Unfortunately, your link only led me to a 404 error from The Guardian. Do you have another, perhaps?)


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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 5:58:23 AM   
tweakabelle


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Sorry about the link. It seems I somehow added a full stop (period) at the end. I hope this one works for you:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/26/trump-says-us-military-will-not-accept-or-allow-transgender-people-to-serve

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 7:10:42 AM   
LadyPact


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Very informative. Thank you. (I should have figured out the full stop issue, myself. My computer twit status reigns.)




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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 10:44:29 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Could she have done all of this while taking hormones that would make her physically weaker? Also, how would needing to take medication daily have affected her service? Deployed 13 times? Seal teams? Pharmacies were not just around the corner.

You're assuming that a person would be 'weaker' taking hormones or not able to live up to the standard of service. We could argue about the latter until we're blue in the face because I know transgender persons that would be more than qualified physically to pass the required PT (physical training) standards for service.

I have a bit of a hang up with the pharmacy comment as well. If a person isn't associated with the military in any way, they probably don't know how this gets handled. When it comes to military service members being sent from one place to the other, whether that be PCS, (sorry, permanent change of station) deployments, schools, field exercise, whatever, they get this neat list of stuff they have to do in anticipation of where they will arrive. One of the things on that list is a requirement for the service member to have a certain number of day's supply for any maintenance meds that are currently prescribed. How many day's worth depends on where the person is going and how long it is expected before that person will have regular access to a pharmacy or to set up meds to be mailed to their unit if they aren't at an established base. It would be the same as it would for any service member that is on high blood pressure meds, pills for high cholesterol, antidepressants, or anything else.


General comment.

Some of the posts on this thread kind of make me wonder if people really understand how this thing would work. It's not like trans* persons would be able to go to the recruiter, take the ASVAB, and once they hit in-processing for basic, the military is just going to start handing out meds like candy. There was nothing in the Obama plan that said anything about people getting a short cut to transitioning from the medical aspect that would be any different from the civilian world.

What would be different:

1) Any active duty military member would be addressed and treated as the gender they are transitioning TO. That included health care, facilities, accommodations, etc. This would be regardless of where they were in transition, including anatomy.

2) Training of service members, including health professionals and those involved in CoC, would be in motion as of July 1, 2017. It would be required quarterly, at minimum. (This is a part of what Kristen Beck said in the interview about leadership and cohesion.)

Cost.

This is just my impression. I think there are some folks who really don't understand how military medical benefits work. There's this amazing leap being made that anybody who ever serves has medical coverage for life, including prescriptions, and it just doesn't work that way. How it does work goes something like this:

1) You've done the full boat, meaning you have been a full time service member (or spouse) until retirement. To obtain retiree status, anybody joining today has to do the full thirty years. Some retirees are under what is known as the grandfather clause, which means when they joined, the requirement was twenty years.

2) You have a military caused condition that puts you at medical disability that is CAUSED by your service. This can mean a malady proven by time in service, from order of Command, etc. Skip the obvious. Think about something like what a big deal it was that Agent Orange was proven to cause cancer. It had to be linked to a person's time in service, and responsibility, for the military to give people coverage.

Mental Health Issues.

A decent portion of the military's spending on 'health' has been about mental health issues, especially PTSD, anti-anxiety, depression, and a variety of other causes. A report published just last year by the RAND Center for Military Health Policy Research says that a full 20% of people returning from duty in Iraq, Afghanastan, and similar deployments, require mental health treatment. What transgender persons would add to this is a drop in the bucket compared to the one in FIVE that need mental health care. The Army has spent more on the legal defense of people killing their intimate partners than they could ever the projected costs from trans* individuals.






I did not realize that they were enlisting/commissioning those on "high blood pressure meds, pills for high cholesterol, antidepressants, or anything else." Let alone sending them to Ranger, Seal, AST, or other specialized courses.

What is the cost in military readiness to adding further "sensitivity training" to the schedule? We already know that the amount of mandatory training of this type is damaging readiness in a terrible way. What more needful training are you willing for the military to forgo?

Mental health - Trans folk have terrible mental health outcomes. The suicide rate is abnormally high. So are depression and other co-morbities with gender dysphoria. Whose mental health care gets reduced so that trans people in the military get the mental health care they need? What suicide level for military members are you comfortable with?

Again, how does enlisting/commissioning transgenders improve military readiness and effectiveness?

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RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 1:11:07 PM   
kdsub


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I did not read every post so my view is most likely already been presented...so Just another opinion.

I believe a set of physical and mental requirements should be set for the service in general and occupational specialty in particular. Anyone who can meet those requirements should be accepted... That said....

I do not believe it should be the obligation of our armed forces to provide assignment surgery or provide hormone treatments for the transgender. If they should forgo such treatments while serving then I see no reason they could not serve as long as they meet the requirements for their job.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Trump's transgender military ban 'not worked out yet' - 7/30/2017 4:18:52 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
I did not realize that they were enlisting/commissioning those on "high blood pressure meds, pills for high cholesterol, antidepressants, or anything else." Let alone sending them to Ranger, Seal, AST, or other specialized courses.

MP's actually been on high blood pressure meds for 75% of his career. It's why I knew a bunch of the stuff that I put in the prior post. He's also far enough up the non-com chain that he's overseen his soldiers in-processing/out-processing more times than I can count, so even though it's the soldier's responsibility to do their crap, it's the unit that hears the flack when they don't.

quote:

What is the cost in military readiness to adding further "sensitivity training" to the schedule? We already know that the amount of mandatory training of this type is damaging readiness in a terrible way. What more needful training are you willing for the military to forgo?

This is something MP and I talked about at length when we were going over what was originally scheduled to be implemented on July 1. It's also why I'm not terribly hyped up about any of these various sources that are talking about costs, because cost has to be looked at overall, and how the costs relate. Training has to be included in those cost estimates or they really aren't worth much.

Some of the training costs, in my opinion, should already be implemented when we start talking about certain sections of the military, if for nothing else because certain personnel deal with dependents. Medical and support personnel (plus certain civilian contractors) have to have it whether trans* individuals can openly serve or not. It's related to standard of care.

quote:

Mental health - Trans folk have terrible mental health outcomes. The suicide rate is abnormally high. So are depression and other co-morbities with gender dysphoria. Whose mental health care gets reduced so that trans people in the military get the mental health care they need? What suicide level for military members are you comfortable with?

People need to put their bias aside for this. It's not going to be 'we favor people with mental health issues who happen to be trans' vrs 'military service member with depression from being deployed'. Does it ever occur to anybody that, if we didn't treat trans* people like sh^t in the first place, they wouldn't have the higher suicide rate to begin with? Nurture has a part to play in that.

quote:

Again, how does enlisting/commissioning transgenders improve military readiness and effectiveness?

The same way it did when people had the same debates when it came to race, cis-gender, and sexual orientation. It's what Kristen Bell was talking about.

Effectiveness is about who can do the job. We already have people doing the job. They just can't be 'out' as trans*. It's not that different than when we went from 'don't ask, don't tell' to gay people being allowed to openly serve. Personally, I thought there was going to be a lot of BS over that, but there wasn't. It was way smoother than I predicted.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 80
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