RE: Are cakes art?

RE: Are cakes art? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Are cakes art?

No: thinking that they are is really gay

35% (10)

No: of course they're not

3% (1)

Don't know

0% (0)

Don't care

17% (5)

Maybe if they're really good cakes

7% (2)

Yes: anybody who can charge for a made to order cake is an artisan

28% (8)

Yes: if Haring and Koon's smug whiffle is art, so's a fancy cake

7% (2)

Total Votes : 28

(last vote on : 9/27/2017 6:35:01 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

bounty44 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:16:19 PM)
there is no "imposing" involved---the customers are not required to accept the Christian faith. the only imposing that occurs is when the states comes in and says, by force of law, you have to violate your religious principles in order to stay in business/not face a fine, etc.

MercTech -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:27:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Cup holders were common in the 60's The car would have had to have been 30 years old. I find it strange that whatever country she lived in at the time mentioned more than we got here when I lived within 100 miles of the incident. On the contrary, cup holders were an extra option on only the high dollar luxury cars in the 1960s. You bought a 49 cent plastic cup holder that slid into the side window slot if you needed a cup holder. Cup holders didn't become a common thing until the 1990s when they started leaving out ash trays and had to have SOMETHING to enable the fashionable caffeine addiction.

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:32:23 PM)
Explain to me how a person is violating their faith by providing a product. The same product that would have been provided by the business owner who was doing the same for a het couple.

bounty44 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:42:47 PM)
this has been discussed over and over. its not "just" a product. its a lending of their services to an act with which they disagree on religious principles. the implication of which is, its a violation of their faith.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:49:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Explain to me how a person is violating their faith by providing a product. The same product that would have been provided by the business owner who was doing the same for a het couple. Well, if a person's faith dictates that marriage is a union of a man and a woman, and a man and a woman ONLY, then forcing that person to provide a product that celebrates/symbolizes such unions for a couple that is not male and female, then yes, that would violate his/her faith. The baker is obviously deeply committed to his faith since he shut down his bakery and his source of income rather than violate the tenants of his faith. In the end all the gay couple accomplished was to deny the baker's service to anyone.

BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:49:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Cup holders were common in the 60's The car would have had to have been 30 years old. I find it strange that whatever country she lived in at the time mentioned more than we got here when I lived within 100 miles of the incident. On the contrary, cup holders were an extra option on only the high dollar luxury cars in the 1960s. You bought a 49 cent plastic cup holder that slid into the side window slot if you needed a cup holder. Cup holders didn't become a common thing until the 1990s when they started leaving out ash trays and had to have SOMETHING to enable the fashionable caffeine addiction. But we are talking about an 89 so it doesn't matter.

BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:52:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Made2Obey quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Explain to me how a person is violating their faith by providing a product. The same product that would have been provided by the business owner who was doing the same for a het couple. Well, if a person's faith dictates that marriage is a union of a man and a woman, and a man and a woman ONLY, then forcing that person to provide a product that celebrates/symbolizes such unions for a couple that is not male and female, then yes, that would violate his/her faith. The baker is obviously deeply committed to his faith since he shut down his bakery and his source of income rather than violate the tenants of his faith. In the end all the gay couple accomplished was to deny the baker's service to anyone. Walmart refuses to do a cake with a Confederate Flag, that discriminates against some people.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:53:19 PM)
My 89 Subaru had cup holders, and it certainly wasn't a high end car, just a daily driver type.

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:55:20 PM)
But it's not a "violation of faith" for other things. When a person goes into business, collecting state tax for their "art," they accept that they must treat people equally.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Walmart refuses to do a cake with a Confederate Flag, that discriminates against some people. Good point, and that doesn't even involve religion. And you don't see anyone suing them over it either.

BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 2:58:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Made2Obey My 89 Subaru had cup holders, and it certainly wasn't a high end car, just a daily driver type. And since that is the car she was in any reasonably intelligent person would have used it. My 84 colt had them to as did my 90 ranger and both had ash trays.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:00:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact But it's not a "violation of faith" for other things. When a person goes into business, collecting state tax for their "art," they accept that they must treat people equally. According to that logic, if I ran a ballet school for little girls I would have no choice but to accept a middle-aged known predator as a student because the state demands that I charge tax, or I am violating his rights.

bounty44 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:02:07 PM)
lost me on that one---youre suggesting that the presence of a sales tax that goes to the state necessitates treating people equally? the essential question is---when there is conflict, who is best to solve it? the parties in question, the free market, or the government. if we want religious liberty, the best options are going to be the first two. from my perspective, businesses should be free to decline business with whomever they will. the end of that is not a return to jim crow. as an aside, I remember years ago Christian landlords getting into trouble by refusing to rent to unmarried couples.

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:04:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Walmart refuses to do a cake with a Confederate Flag, that discriminates against some people. No, it doesn't. The difference is that such a design isn't available to ANYONE. The shop refuses to make that kind of cake AT ALL. It's not "we'll make it for you, but not for YOU." I said this pages ago. An item not available is not discrimination. An item that is for sale, only for certain customers is a violation of law.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:06:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Made2Obey My 89 Subaru had cup holders, and it certainly wasn't a high end car, just a daily driver type. And since that is the car she was in any reasonably intelligent person would have used it. My 84 colt had them to as did my 90 ranger and both had ash trays. My Subaru had both ashtrays and cup holders front and rear in 89. However the 89 Ford Probe she was in did not have them. However it DID have a very nice flat shelf on top of the dashboard and directly in front of her, that had plenty of clearance from the windshield to leave room for a Big Gulp cup, much less a normal coffee cup. I put a pic of an 89 Probe in post # 154 of this thread that shows the interior.

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:15:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Made2Obey quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact But it's not a "violation of faith" for other things. When a person goes into business, collecting state tax for their "art," they accept that they must treat people equally. According to that logic, if I ran a ballet school for little girls I would have no choice but to accept a middle-aged known predator as a student because the state demands that I charge tax, or I am violating his rights. No, now you're just being an idiot. To use your own example, what law was the gay couple breaking in getting married? Where is the "known predator?" We're not talking about criminals, dude. We're talking about a couple who wanted a wedding cake.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:17:48 PM)
But criminals have rights too, and you just said if I collect state tax money, then I am violating the law if I don't serve everyone Also, this happened in Oregon in 2013, where same sex marriage was not legal until 2014.

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:23:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Made2Obey But criminals have rights too, and you just said if I collect state tax money, then I am violating the law if I don't serve everyone Actually, that's not true. You can deny services to anyone who has infringed on your business. Like bad checks, etc. Stop trying to impose the idea that gay folks are criminals! That's YOUR discrimination at work. The couple who was trying to order the cake didn't violate any business practice.

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:25:24 PM)
Except an illegal marriage. At that time, they actually WERE criminals.

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/23/2017 3:35:00 PM)
Y'all are on a kink site. If you are ACTUALLY engaging in kink, how does that work?

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