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[Poll]

Are cakes art?


No: thinking that they are is really gay
  35% (10)
No: of course they're not
  3% (1)
Don't know
  0% (0)
Don't care
  17% (5)
Maybe if they're really good cakes
  7% (2)
Yes: anybody who can charge for a made to order cake is an artisan
  28% (8)
Yes: if Haring and Koon's smug whiffle is art, so's a fancy cake
  7% (2)


Total Votes : 28


(last vote on : 9/27/2017 6:35:01 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 8:37:27 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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I am dead serious... guns and my conscience do not go together and I am not alone. If it is ok to deny service because of religious conscience then you will not eat cake from my bakery... If I had one.

Or do you believe that only the religious have a conscience?

Can you not see!

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 8:44:49 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am dead serious... guns and my conscience do not go together and I am not alone. If it is ok to deny service because of religious conscience then you will not eat cake from my bakery... If I had one.

Or do you believe that only the religious have a conscience?

Butch


No i don't believe only the religious have a conscience. I am not religious and i have a conscience. I don't think anyone should be forced to do anything that goes against his/her conscience.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 8:50:03 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am dead serious... guns and my conscience do not go together and I am not alone. If it is ok to deny service because of religious conscience then you will not eat cake from my bakery... If I had one.

Or do you believe that only the religious have a conscience?

Butch


No i don't believe only the religious have a conscience. I am not religious and i have a conscience. I don't think anyone should be forced to do anything that goes against his/her conscience.



Will I am religious ...very... and I do not think I have the right to force my beliefs on you and it should not be sanctioned in law. There is no good conscience that deny basic human rights to equality under the law.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 8:55:21 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am dead serious... guns and my conscience do not go together and I am not alone. If it is ok to deny service because of religious conscience then you will not eat cake from my bakery... If I had one.

Or do you believe that only the religious have a conscience?

Butch


No i don't believe only the religious have a conscience. I am not religious and i have a conscience. I don't think anyone should be forced to do anything that goes against his/her conscience.



Will I am religious ...very... and I do not think I have the right to force my beliefs on you and it should not be sanctioned in law. There is no good conscience that deny basic human rights to equality under the law.

Butch


No one should be able to force their personal beliefs on someone else. I should not be able to force you to do something that goes against your personal beliefs and vice versa.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 9:11:41 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief.

Butch


As a fellow Atheist, pretty sure Atheism beliefs does not include "being against guns".

The pre-requsite to be Atheist is only believing that God does not Exist. Other than that. There is no official guideline on what beliefs an Atheist needs to subscribe to.

Whereas a Christian has more long list of Christianity rules. Like Marriage is between a man and woman only as clearly stated in the bible. No where in the bible does it mention marriage is between husband and husband.

It boils down to whether we want to allow people to practice their religious beliefs or not.

If an Atheist baker refuses to sell cake to Christians as they are offended in their belief in their God, which many Atheist may be see it as the equivalent of worshiping Hitler.

Of course that should be okay! Atheist are offended by people who believe in God.

I mean, I personally don't care about Christians being Christians as much as I care about Muslims being Muslims, because no where in Christianity states that God wants people to execute punishment on his behalf.

Whereas Muslims are more scary as their God commands them to execute punishment on others on his behalf. And infact made it sooo mandatory that Muslims are told they will go to hell if they do not do it.

The God in Christianity is as scary as the God in Islam. But at least the God in Christianity forbade the Christians to take matter into their own hands. And Christians taking matter into their own hands is risking going to hell themselves. That's the good part.

That's why I also say the baker who refuse gay people. Maybe he will go to hell, maybe he will not. It's unclear whether Jesus approves of Gay.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 9:18:47 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief.

Butch


As a fellow Atheist, pretty sure Atheism beliefs does not include "being against guns".

The pre-requsite to be Atheist is only believing that God does not Exist. Other than that. There is no official guideline on what beliefs an Atheist needs to subscribe to.

Whereas a Christian has more long list of Christianity rules. Like Marriage is between a man and woman only as clearly stated in the bible. No where in the bible does it mention marriage is between husband and husband.

It boils down to whether we want to allow people to practice their religious beliefs or not.

If an Atheist baker refuses to sell cake to Christians as they are offended in their belief in their God, which many Atheist may be see it as the equivalent of worshiping Hitler.

Of course that should be okay! Atheist are offended by people who believe in God.






No but each person could establish their own religion for his/her own beliefs so.... what we are really discussing underneath the guise of 'religion' is individuals' rights to have their own conscience and not be forced to act against themself/their conscience.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 9:22:16 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

No but each person could establish their own religion for his/her own beliefs so.... what we are really discussing underneath the guise of 'religion' is individuals' rights to have their own conscience and not be forced to act against themself/their conscience.



But being against guns is not universal for atheists.

I can tell you that being against gay marriage is universal for ALL Christians in my country.

I can't find a Christian who thinks that gay marriage is permitted in their religion around here.

But the majority Buddhist population here are also against gay marriages. So unlikely gay marriage will be legalise soon in this country. At least the Buddhist/Christians/Muslims are united as one in being against gay marriages in my country.

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 9:33:59 PM   
Made2Obey


Posts: 357
Joined: 8/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
No but each person could establish their own religion for his/her own beliefs so.... what we are really discussing underneath the guise of 'religion' is individuals' rights to have their own conscience and not be forced to act against themself/their conscience.


There are certain conditions that must be met for a religion to be legally recognized by the courts. I can't recall them off the top of my head, but there are things like needing a minimum membership count, and there has to be some form of formal record that lays out the principles and beliefs of your faith.
So I couldn't just decide that I belonged to the "Fire Ants Are God" religion all by myself and then claim that I couldn't provide a wedding cake for a same sex marriage because fire ants don't believe in anything but straight wedding cakes.
However I could if I could show, say a dozen other believers, and a Fire Ant bible, and maybe a record of church meetings over a period of time to show that this was a legitimate faith.
You can make up your own religion, but if you want to use it as an excuse in court there are conditions to be met.

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 9:36:59 PM   
DommeinRochester


Posts: 80
Joined: 2/9/2012
Status: offline
So Greta, you have asked every single Christian in Singapore if they support/believe in Gay Marriage?


As for the question - are there any Christian denominations that support Gay Marriage - The answer is quite a few.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 9:50:36 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeinRochester

So Greta, you have asked every single Christian in Singapore if they support/believe in Gay Marriage?


As for the question - are there any Christian denominations that support Gay Marriage - The answer is quite a few.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT


If you notice, there is no Singapore Church in that List.

There one church but it is set up by LGBT Christians specifically among themselves. Because regular churches won't accept them.

And my stances on LGBT is I don't care what they do in the bedroom. To me, it's just a sexual orientation, a sexual kink.

Sexual kinks are from birth too. My kinks were all from birth and will be with me till I die.

But I don't see it as a valid marriage reason. As I do not think it is the in the best interest of children to be denied the balance of one male and one female parent.

It's denying their own children of what is best for their children. But providing what is second best.

The argument is always for example, "Adopted kids are better with LGBT parents than no parents."

Precisely...., not the best. Settling for better than not having parents at all.

(in reply to DommeinRochester)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:01:33 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
No but each person could establish their own religion for his/her own beliefs so.... what we are really discussing underneath the guise of 'religion' is individuals' rights to have their own conscience and not be forced to act against themself/their conscience.


There are certain conditions that must be met for a religion to be legally recognized by the courts. I can't recall them off the top of my head, but there are things like needing a minimum membership count, and there has to be some form of formal record that lays out the principles and beliefs of your faith.
So I couldn't just decide that I belonged to the "Fire Ants Are God" religion all by myself and then claim that I couldn't provide a wedding cake for a same sex marriage because fire ants don't believe in anything but straight wedding cakes.
However I could if I could show, say a dozen other believers, and a Fire Ant bible, and maybe a record of church meetings over a period of time to show that this was a legitimate faith.
You can make up your own religion, but if you want to use it as an excuse in court there are conditions to be met.


The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The first part of this provision is known as the Establishment Clause, and the second part is known as the Free Exercise Clause. Although the First Amendment only refers to Congress, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Fourteenth Amendment makes the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses also binding on states (Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 60 S. Ct. 900, 84 L. Ed. 1213 [1940], and Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, 67 S. Ct. 504, 91 L. Ed. 711 [1947], respectively). Since that incorporation, an extensive body of law has developed in the United States around both the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause.To determine whether an action of the federal or state government infringes upon a person's right to freedom of religion, the court must decide what qualifies as religion or religious activities for purposes of the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has interpreted religion to mean a sincere and meaningful belief that occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to the place held by God in the lives of other persons. The religion or religious concept need not include belief in the existence of God or a supreme being to be within the scope of the First Amendment.

As the case of United States v. Ballard, 322 U.S. 78, 64 S. Ct. 882, 88 L. Ed. 1148 (1944), demonstrates, the Supreme Court must look to the sincerity of a person's beliefs to help decide if those beliefs constitute a religion that deserves constitutional protection. The Ballard case involved the conviction of organizers of the I Am movement on grounds that they defrauded people by falsely representing that their members had supernatural powers to heal people with incurable illnesses. The Supreme Court held that the jury, in determining the line between the free exercise of religion and the punishable offense of obtaining property under False Pretenses, should not decide whether the claims of the I Am members were actually true, only whether the members honestly believed them to be true, thus qualifying the group as a religion under the Supreme Court's broad definition.

In addition, a belief does not need to be stated in traditional terms to fall within First Amendment protection. For example, Scientology—a system of beliefs that a human being is essentially a free and immortal spirit who merely inhabits a body—does not propound the existence of a supreme being, but it qualifies as a religion under the broad definition propounded by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has deliberately avoided establishing an exact or a narrow definition of religion because freedom of religion is a dynamic guarantee that was written in a manner to ensure flexibility and responsiveness to the passage of time and the development of the United States. Thus, religion is not limited to traditional denominations.

The First Amendment guarantee of freedom of religion has deeply rooted historical significance. Many of the colonists who founded the United States came to this continent to escape religious persecution and government oppression. This country's founders advocated religious freedom and sought to prevent any one religion or group of religious organizations from dominating the government or imposing its will or beliefs on society as a whole. The revolutionary philosophy encompassed the principle that the interests of society are best served if individuals are free to form their own opinions and beliefs.

When the colonies and states were first established, however, most declared a particular religion to be the religion of that region. But, by the end of the American Revolution, most state-supported churches had been disestablished, with the exceptions of the state churches of Connecticut and Massachusetts, which were disestablished in 1818 and 1833, respectively. Still, religion was undoubtedly an important element in the lives of the American colonists, and U.S. culture remains greatly influenced by religion.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:15:54 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief.

Butch


As a fellow Atheist, pretty sure Atheism beliefs does not include "being against guns".

The pre-requsite to be Atheist is only believing that God does not Exist. Other than that. There is no official guideline on what beliefs an Atheist needs to subscribe to.

Whereas a Christian has more long list of Christianity rules. Like Marriage is between a man and woman only as clearly stated in the bible. No where in the bible does it mention marriage is between husband and husband.


It doesn't matter what your interpretation of the Bible is, all that matters is that other Christian denominations practice gay marriage, therefore gay marriage is a religious freedom. I tried to make this point in the other thread but it was dismissed as a 'distortion' for absolutely no reason.


Refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, refusing to serve gay couples, refusing to issue a marriage license to a gay couple... all of these things are you imposing your own beliefs on other people. If you want to run a business, you need to be able to separate your business life from your religious life and not do things that will interfere with anyone else's ability to freely practice their beliefs.

This is why bigoted Christians should simply not be bakers... because they are putting themselves in a situation where their own fucked up beliefs will interfere with the beliefs of others.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:17:58 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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I guess you cant read maybe thats why you get everything upside down and inside out, has nothing to do with 'christain' religion practicing anything.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:19:50 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I guess you cant read maybe thats why you get everything upside down and inside out, has nothing to do with 'christain' religion practicing anything.


You're barely coherent and not so bright, so I'm just going to assume you don't understand what I'm saying or even what you yourself are posting, and then ignore you for the rest of the thread.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:29:52 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, refusing to serve gay couples, refusing to issue a marriage license to a gay couple... all of these things are you imposing your own beliefs on other people. If you want to run a business, you need to be able to separate your business life from your religious life and not do things that will interfere with anyone else's ability to freely practice their beliefs.

This is why bigoted Christians should simply not be bakers... because they are putting themselves in a situation where their own fucked up beliefs will interfere with the beliefs of others.


Can you please complain about Muslims refusing to serve me Pork then, please? It's business. They should keep religion out of it, according to you.

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:31:01 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief.

Butch


How would it affect your conscience?



So you are saying that we are not all equal in the US... the Religious are privileged? As an atheist would I not have the same right to follow my beliefs as say a Catholic?

In this free country is your belief any more meaningful than mine? Believe me my conscience is telling me Republicans in Congress trying to take away healthcare from the poor are against my deeply held beliefs... can I deny service to all Republicans.

Can you not see?

Butch



if you are a brainless fucking dim wit and you are stupid enough to stand in front of a court bellaring that you are an atheist and you have no religion and from what I have seen of your posts its exactly what I would expect from you the court would hand you your ass and say get the fuck out of here.

On the other hand if you grew some balls and stood in front of the judge and declared you are an atheist and atheism is your religion, you would probably win if in fact your case could be classified as a religion


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:36:01 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, refusing to serve gay couples, refusing to issue a marriage license to a gay couple... all of these things are you imposing your own beliefs on other people. If you want to run a business, you need to be able to separate your business life from your religious life and not do things that will interfere with anyone else's ability to freely practice their beliefs.

This is why bigoted Christians should simply not be bakers... because they are putting themselves in a situation where their own fucked up beliefs will interfere with the beliefs of others.


Can you please complain about Muslims refusing to serve me Pork then, please? It's business. They should keep religion out of it, according to you.


And around and around we go.


Where are they refusing to serve you pork? Is this something that is happening in a non-Islamic food restaurant in America?

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:39:29 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Where are they refusing to serve you pork? Is this something that is happening in a non-Islamic food restaurant in America?

Why does it have to happen in "Non-Islamic restaurants"?

The baker is a Christian Bakery. So that's why they don't serve cakes to gay people.

Islamic restaurants is a Islamic Restaurant. That's why they don't serve pork to non-muslims.

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:49:48 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


If people honestly think they are being discriminated against, the idea isn't supposed to be shut up about it and shop somewhere else. The idea is to be treated equally. The same as any other couple ordering a cake.


However, nobody is actually asking the man to change his mind or his beliefs. He's being asked not to discriminate based on them. Something SCOTUS has already ruled isn't legal.

In my opinion, this case is a case at all because the baker is trying to use his definition of "art" as the difference than cases that have already been lost. Similar cases have already been heard, and anti-discrimination tends to be how they've been ruled on. I expect it to happen again.

It's also supposed to be about treating people equally.

The chance existed before. We, as a society, could have chosen not to discriminate, but we didn't do a great job. If we had, we wouldn't need cases like these.





No thats not the idea between private parties, it is the idea and the law for gubmint.

The baker is being forced by da gubmint to do something that is in violation of his religion, the force to change religion is on the baker NOT the gays ffs.

Where did scotus rule what?

I agree art is not a good argument and most likely will not survive, religion on the other is and would survive if properly briefed.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Are cakes art? - 9/24/2017 10:56:24 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, refusing to serve gay couples, refusing to issue a marriage license to a gay couple... all of these things are you imposing your own beliefs on other people. If you want to run a business, you need to be able to separate your business life from your religious life and not do things that will interfere with anyone else's ability to freely practice their beliefs.

This is why bigoted Christians should simply not be bakers... because they are putting themselves in a situation where their own fucked up beliefs will interfere with the beliefs of others.


Can you please complain about Muslims refusing to serve me Pork then, please? It's business. They should keep religion out of it, according to you.


And around and around we go.


Where are they refusing to serve you pork? Is this something that is happening in a non-Islamic food restaurant in America?


like so many of your ilk you are in over your head on this topic.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 300
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