RE: Consent 2 (Full Version)

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Milesnmiles -> RE: Consent 2 (11/19/2017 5:06:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
It's probably because there are just too many strawmen that you have chosen to put into this thread.
Strawmen? Do even know what a Strawman argument is?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
You've said repeatedly that you are concerned about the direction "the government" is going. From there, you went to the premise of illegal sex between two men in other countries which, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't a real concern of yours unless you intend to be boffing people outside of the USA any time soon.
Yes, I’m concerned about the direction "the government" is going and mentioning what other governments in this world are doing about what they consider “illegal sex”, shows how far governments can go, which is a concern of mine.

As for this whole “premise of illegal sex between two men in other countries which … isn't a real concern of yours unless you intend to be boffing people outside of the USA any time soon”, this is a Strawman argument because it has nothing to do with what governments can do and is just a meaningless diversion from the discussion at hand.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
You've complain that I don't know the future.
Actually I complained that you keep acting like you know the future, which neither of us know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Are you assuming in the next few decades there is going to be some massive change in the criminal justice system that a complainant is going to be missing from this equation?
No, I’m not assuming anything. I merely said I was concerned about the direction the government seems to be headed and history shows that it doesn’t have to take decades for a government to go from reasonably good to very bad.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
In my opinion, the greatest concern about this are those situations where you have violated the law in some way. The person that you have engaged with makes a formal complaint because, for some reason, they believe they were not capable of giving informed, non-impaired consent. The other person was intoxicated, they aren't actually capable for consent by mental defect, the person is not of age to consent, or something along those lines. Any of these takes the person walking into a law enforcement agency to make a complaint against you.
You seem to think that somehow I disagree with what you say here but I don’t. This is pretty much how things work in the USA as we speak.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
(I'm not willing to play out Orwell's "1984" with you about 'Big Brother' bringing charges against you because I find that kind of nonsense too far into the ridiculous.)
This is why I brought up the situation in other countries, just to show you that such things are not "nonsense too far into the ridiculous" and are being practiced as we speak in other countries and that perhaps you should open your eyes, because just saying “it can’t happen here” won't stop it from happening here.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I'm going to say something about third party reports as it relates to adults. As I said earlier, I do believe in the Good Samaritan theory. These are decent people who will call LEO because they think what they have witnessed is wrong and they don't want to see somebody get hurt. I've also seen it bastardized. Stupid crap like a certain person calling in false reports because they were banned from club X, or because person A chose to date person B, rather than person C, so person C called the cops, or person D didn't approve of the consensual activities of other adults, and they decided to stick their nose in other people's bedrooms. I'll agree with you that some people do that kind of thing out of jealousy, envy, or spite.
Okay but that’s not what I was talking about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Do you know what fixes the latter category? The person you are actually engaging with being willing to say that they want to do whatever it is that you're doing. It's going to suck and it's going to be embarrassing, but it can be done, and it's a real easy way to get an investigation closed.
Okay but that’s not what I was talking about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I'm going to say something else, too. I take this stuff just as seriously as I think any male top should. I hold myself to the same standard that I think you should be doing. It takes me just as long to touch somebody's junk without their consent as it does you.
Okay but that’s not what I was talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If I do so, I'm just as guilty as you.
I not sure what you’re implying I’m “guilty” of but unless it is a ticket for parking, you have no idea what in the world you’re talking about.




LadyPact -> RE: Consent 2 (11/19/2017 8:29:51 PM)

For what it's worth, I don't think most people on the forum know what you're talking about. [;)]

(Never say leather folks don't have a sense of humor.)

Let's straighten out one thing first. What you're calling the government, I'm calling the criminal justice system.

quote:

I not sure what you’re implying I’m “guilty” of but unless it is a ticket for parking, you have no idea what in the world you’re talking about.

Are you a kinky dude? As a top, I'm rather cognizant of the stuff I could be arrested for. My driving/parking habits would be the least of my worries.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Consent 2 (11/20/2017 4:32:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
For what it's worth, I don't think most people on the forum know what you're talking about. [;)]

Thanx for the heads up. ;-)
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
(Never say leather folks don't have a sense of humor.)

They do? I must be in the wrong place.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Let's straighten out one thing first. What you're calling the government, I'm calling the criminal justice system.

Thanx, I was kind of getting the impression that there was a slight disconnect between us.

At this time, in the US, there also seems to be a "slight disconnect" between the Government (Trump) and the "criminal justice system". I'm kind of waiting to see if the American people will win or not.
quote:

I not sure what you’re implying I’m “guilty” of but unless it is a ticket for parking, you have no idea what in the world you’re talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Are you a kinky dude? As a top, I'm rather cognizant of the stuff I could be arrested for. My driving/parking habits would be the least of my worries.
A kinky Dude? After 70 Years I've begun to realize that might be the case, Yes.

And I know we've discussed this before but I tend to believe that there is a wee bit of prejudice in the "criminal justice system". So being a Dude rather than a Dudette, I feel the need to be a wee bit more this side of the kink stuff I could be arrested for than some others.

That being said, I don’t feel “guilty” about anything I’ve done, although with new precedents being set and the selection of new Supreme Court Justices, who knows what I’ll be “guilty” of tomorrow.




LadyPact -> RE: Consent 2 (11/26/2017 10:13:42 PM)

<FR>

Ya know, this stuff isn't that hard...

I engage in enthusiastic consent. Whether I engage in rape play, forced anything, whatever.

It's you JOB to get the Yes.



LadyPact -> RE: Consent 2 (11/26/2017 10:44:17 PM)

#MeToo.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 12:14:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

<FR>

Ya know, this stuff isn't that hard...

I engage in enthusiastic consent. Whether I engage in rape play, forced anything, whatever.

It's you JOB to get the Yes.



Ditto, this is spot on and this stuff is not that damn hard.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 4:27:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

<FR>

Ya know, this stuff isn't that hard...

I engage in enthusiastic consent. Whether I engage in rape play, forced anything, whatever.

It's your JOB to get the Yes.


I've never said it was hard, in fact I've never said one way or another.

In fact I started this thread, not because I don't know or understand what "consent" is but because I wanted to listen to what others have to say on the subject.

What I've found out so far is that there are a lot of very angry people here that have very little to say on the subject and have given very little thought to the it.

I believe I've already said that I like your concept of "enthusiastic consent".

As for it being my job to get a yes, No it isn't, it is not my job to get anything from anyone. As Jackson Browne put it I'm just looking for the heart that's looking for mine and I don't think "consent" even enters into the picture when you are doing that.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 4:29:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
#MeToo.


Hi Ditto head, glad to see you are still being agreeable.



LadyPact -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 5:10:20 AM)


The #metoo thing is about being sexually assaulted. That "implied" consent you want to talk about? That's how I was assaulted in the spring of 2013. To my great regret, I fell asleep in my own home... On the couch... "Cause I was watching tv.

You're going to have to excuse me that I don't believe in "implied consent" much.




Greta75 -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 7:21:16 AM)

FR
There is no such thing as "implied consent".

Men can feel convinced a woman is interested in having sex with them by simply dirty dancing with them in a club. That's it. That would be implied consent already.

I know too many girlfriends who can grind against a guy at clubs and be all over him but is not interested in sex at all. But the guy will think that she got the hots for him and is dying to be fucked. She just likes to dance sexy and have fun. But quite a prude about actual sex and were actually virgins waiting for marriage to fuck. Infact, it's super common here that some women can be extremely flirtatious and dress in very little clothings but leave sex till after marriage.

Which is exactly why foreign guys come here and get the wrong idea and then get arrested for touching them inappropriately. They don't understand the culture that although they are very sexy and flirtatious and love to have fun, seemingly friendly and inviting, but it's still very conservative in terms of actual touching and sex.



bounty44 -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 7:43:43 AM)

greta, of course there is "implied consent"---saying there isn't in some instances doesn't deny its existence in others. we simply do not ask permission for every single romantic/sexual touching we do in the context of relationships.

if youre married, you simply kiss your wife. you don't ask if she consents to it.



Owner4SexSlave -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 8:44:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR
There is no such thing as "implied consent".

Men can feel convinced a woman is interested in having sex with them by simply dirty dancing with them in a club. That's it. That would be implied consent already.

I know too many girlfriends who can grind against a guy at clubs and be all over him but is not interested in sex at all. But the guy will think that she got the hots for him and is dying to be fucked. She just likes to dance sexy and have fun. But quite a prude about actual sex and were actually virgins waiting for marriage to fuck. Infact, it's super common here that some women can be extremely flirtatious and dress in very little clothings but leave sex till after marriage.

Which is exactly why foreign guys come here and get the wrong idea and then get arrested for touching them inappropriately. They don't understand the culture that although they are very sexy and flirtatious and love to have fun, seemingly friendly and inviting, but it's still very conservative in terms of actual touching and sex.


That is consent for clothed sexual contact, but it's limited to that. Consent for anything past that should not be assumed to automatically come along with it.

I've actually had some extremely sexualized dance partners (female friends) which I would dance with, and that was the limit to anything sexual between us. There were times when we were dirty dancing so hard, that we had people staring at us like we should go get a motel room. That was a big part of an associate thrill of it too, was seeing the reactions of other people. It sort of overlaps with exhibitionism because a display is also being put on.

Even with Dirty Dancing, there are different levels of crazy with various boundaries of who you are dancing with. There's a natural progression of testing these boundaries and limits. But, if you are dancing with somebody with less boundaries you damn well quickly figure it out when on the dance floor.

I've been a Dance Club whore myself. Whore for Dancing. It's a great outlet for keeping the clothes on and getting lost in the music and releasing sexual energy and having a load of fun with it all. But one should never assume that it's anything more past than what it is.

At the end of the night, people are all figuring out where they are going afterward. This is where the true dangers of implied consent come into play. "Come to my place" may or may not be a code word invitation to fuck. Going to a party afterward may or may not be a good idea.

It's best to party with friends and people you know after-hours, because you know what kind of crazy you are or are not getting yourself into. I'm not just talking about sex.

There still is a major risk involved, when you are doing things with complete strangers. Drunk people don't always know what the fuck they are doing. Some people are pure crazy trouble. If any doubt, best to find out as much as you can from mutual friends while you're still at the club or where ever.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 4:41:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The #metoo thing is about being sexually assaulted. That "implied" consent you want to talk about? That's how I was assaulted in the spring of 2013. To my great regret, I fell asleep in my own home... On the couch... "Cause I was watching tv.

You're going to have to excuse me that I don't believe in "implied consent" much.

Let me see, hmm, what did I call this thread, Consent, not "implied" consent but Consent and that is what I wanted to talk about, of course "implied" consent would be part of discussion but not particularly what I wanted to talk about.

In any case, sad to hear about what happened to you.

PS I'm assuming #metoo has something to do with twitter. I don't have a twitter and have no future plans to do so and so if it has to do twitter I not going to get the picture.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Consent 2 (11/27/2017 4:49:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR
There is no such thing as "implied consent".

Men can feel convinced a woman is interested in having sex with them by simply dirty dancing with them in a club. That's it. That would be implied consent already.

I know too many girlfriends who can grind against a guy at clubs and be all over him but is not interested in sex at all. But the guy will think that she got the hots for him and is dying to be fucked. She just likes to dance sexy and have fun. But quite a prude about actual sex and were actually virgins waiting for marriage to fuck. Infact, it's super common here that some women can be extremely flirtatious and dress in very little clothings but leave sex till after marriage.

Which is exactly why foreign guys come here and get the wrong idea and then get arrested for touching them inappropriately. They don't understand the culture that although they are very sexy and flirtatious and love to have fun, seemingly friendly and inviting, but it's still very conservative in terms of actual touching and sex.

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of men in general, not all men have such a low standard of what they consider implied consent to be.



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