RE: Libertarian (Full Version)

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WhoreMods -> RE: Libertarian (12/5/2017 7:33:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
It seems that there is a YUUUUGE misconception about what a Libertarian believes in.

A certain hard RW poster even calls himself a Libertarian on his blog.
Several LW posters seem to think that Libertarian is something to the Right of a Nazi.


Which LW posters think Libertarian is something to the Right of a Nazi?

The big left wing criticism of libertarianism is that under such a system, there are few/extremely weak safeguards to prevent the well-off from doing whatever they want-- polluting, exploiting, plundering, etc.
It has nothing to do with comparing any libertarians to Nazis, where the government uses military power to enforce its own will and the cronies control all industry.



The bits that worry me about it put me more in mind of feudalism with notions about birthright replaced by economic control than fascism.
Of course, people who claim to be libertarians, but are only interested in not paying taxes and being able to buy a rocket launcher if they fancy one and won't even pretend to be in favour of freedom to practice religion, limiting government powers (so long as the government is republican, at least), or making women's reproductive rights their own business do come pretty close to the nazi thing in some cases, because they're all for statism and a corporate/government marriage. I think those are the guys that Hill's complaining about in the OP.




heavyblinker -> RE: Libertarian (12/5/2017 7:46:17 AM)

When it comes to abortion, they forgo all pretense of valuing individual rights and freedoms and emphasize that local law must be paramount, no matter how draconian.
This is followed by an 'if you don't like it, leave' type argument.

It's the same thing for jobs-- if you don't like your libertarian utopia job where you make $2.50/hr, just quit!

Then you get to go find another job that pays $2.50/hr until finally you can go to a college you can't afford and use your hard work skills to become just as rich as everyone else who works hard... oh sorry, I mean 'works smart'.

Notice how we've gone from saying that rich people deserve their wealth because they work hard to saying that they deserve it for being smarter than everyone else?




Lucylastic -> RE: Libertarian (12/5/2017 8:06:23 AM)

that sounds like Orrin Hatch, and the CHIP program debacle from yesterday




WhoreMods -> RE: Libertarian (12/5/2017 8:38:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Notice how we've gone from saying that rich people deserve their wealth because they work hard to saying that they deserve it for being smarter than everyone else?

It's particularly conspicuous when it's people who think anti-intellectualism is something to brag about saying that...




DesideriScuri -> RE: Libertarian (12/6/2017 7:45:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
It seems that there is a YUUUUGE misconception about what a Libertarian believes in.
A certain hard RW poster even calls himself a Libertarian on his blog.
Several LW posters seem to think that Libertarian is something to the Right of a Nazi.
Let's just solve the debate.
https://www.lp.org/platform/
This is the OFFICIAL platform of the Libertarian party.
Please note a few highlights.
1.1 Self-Ownership
Individuals own their bodies and have rights over them that other individuals, groups, and governments may not violate. Individuals have the freedom and responsibility to decide what they knowingly and voluntarily consume, and what risks they accept to their own health, finances, safety, or life.
In other words end the war on drugs


Yup.

quote:

1.3 Privacy
Libertarians advocate individual privacy and government transparency. We are committed to ending government’s practice of spying on everyone. We support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, property, and communications. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records.
Repeal Homeland security


Yup. But even further, it also brings up the NSA's actions, repealing the Patriot Act, etc.

quote:

1.5 Abortion
Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.
PRO FUCKING CHOICE]


Not necessarily. Libertarians simply believe you have the right to choose for yourself, and they do not have the right to make that choice for you. Ron Paul is an avowed Pro-Lifer, but still feels it's not government's place (nor his) to make that decision for anyone else.

quote:

1.9 Self-Defense
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights—life, liberty, and justly acquired property—against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
Pro Gun


Yup.

quote:

2.2 Environment
Competitive free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Governments are unaccountable for damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights and responsibilities regarding resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Where damages can be proven and quantified in a court of law, restitution to the injured parties must be required.
Stop Corporate Welfare for big oil and coal


Actually, it's stop Corporate Welfare. Period.

quote:

2.3 Energy and Resources
While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.
See above


See my above, too. lol

quote:

2.5 Government Employees
We favor repealing any requirement that one must join or pay dues to a union as a condition of government employment. We advocate replacing defined-benefit pensions with defined-contribution plans, as are commonly offered in the private sector, so as not to impose debt on future generations without their consent.
Get rid of the fuckin YOONYUNS


Get rid of Public Unions. If you're going to make analyses, at least make sure you're accurate.

quote:

2.7 Marketplace Freedom
Libertarians support free markets. We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of entities based on voluntary association. We oppose all forms of government subsidies and bailouts to business, labor, or any other special interest. Government should not compete with private enterprise.
End corporate Welfare


Yup.

quote:

3.1 National Defense
We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.
Defense, not Oil Wars


Yup.

quote:

3.3 International Affairs
American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by political or revolutionary groups.
See above


Yup.

quote:

3.4 Free Trade and Migration
We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.
Immigration anyone?


Supportive of robust Legal immigration. See above regarding defense, as illegal immigration might just constitute an invasion.

quote:

3.5 Rights and Discrimination
Libertarians embrace the concept that all people are born with certain inherent rights. We reject the idea that a natural right can ever impose an obligation upon others to fulfill that “right.” We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should neither deny nor abridge any individual’s human right based upon sex, wealth, ethnicity, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Members of private organizations retain their rights to set whatever standards of association they deem appropriate, and individuals are free to respond with ostracism, boycotts and other free-market solutions.
Pro Gay Marriage, etc


Yup.

quote:

Think about this those of you on the Right who CLAIM to be Libertarians who are just fucking ignorant hypocrites.


There are those of us who tend to vote Right, and claim to be Libertarians, who ARE Libertarians according to these planks.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Libertarian (12/6/2017 7:47:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
Hmmm... I agree with far too much of that.


Welcome to the Party. [:D]




Wayward5oul -> RE: Libertarian (12/6/2017 8:14:16 AM)

Honestly, there is a great deal of the Libertarian platform that I have always agreed with, but as I don't really discuss politics with people in my circle of friends, most of my interactions with people openly professing to be Libertarians have been in these boards, and my experiences with them have left me wary of what the party looks like in real life.

Desi, you are the exception to that. Your posting history seems to reflect what is stated here as the platform. But you seem to be the exception, not the rule.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Libertarian (12/6/2017 8:57:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Honestly, there is a great deal of the Libertarian platform that I have always agreed with, but as I don't really discuss politics with people in my circle of friends, most of my interactions with people openly professing to be Libertarians have been in these boards, and my experiences with them have left me wary of what the party looks like in real life.
Desi, you are the exception to that. Your posting history seems to reflect what is stated here as the platform. But you seem to be the exception, not the rule.


Thank you for the kind words. [:)]





cloudboy -> RE: Libertarian (12/7/2017 4:13:31 PM)



It is hard for me to understand how private individuals and corporations etc. have the wherewithal to monitor, track, and prevent external pollution costs. You probably can't point to one example of a free-market society that addresses issues of climate change, air-water-land pollution in an extra-government fashion.

There are other sticky issues like who pays for public education? How would the individuals cope without medicare and social security? What kinds of gun regulations are in the "individual interest?"

Where would a libertarian stand on net neutrality?




cloudboy -> RE: Libertarian (12/8/2017 7:26:49 AM)


The U.S. has spent $4.3 trillion on war since 9/11.




WhoreMods -> RE: Libertarian (12/8/2017 8:39:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
Hmmm... I agree with far too much of that.


Welcome to the Party. [:D]


The tea party?




MercTech -> RE: Libertarian (12/9/2017 2:14:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

When it comes to abortion, they forgo all pretense of valuing individual rights and freedoms and emphasize that local law must be paramount, no matter how draconian.
This is followed by an 'if you don't like it, leave' type argument.

Please explain believing that a large federal government has no business making decisions for an individual is not valuing rights and freedoms.

quote:


It's the same thing for jobs-- if you don't like your libertarian utopia job where you make $2.50/hr, just quit!

Ignoring that we were not functioning under the whim of a federal agency that believes 6% per annum inflation is good for the country avoids the libertarian thesis altogether. That $2.50 an hour in 1970 dollars, without the decades of inflation, would be the equivalent of over $30 an hour in the money we have today.
The concept of returning to specie instead of fiat currency is to put a hard check on engineered inflation that only serves to aid corporations showing a quarterly report and the very rich that can leverage a >10% return on any investment.
The common fellow gets max 4% on investments while the engineered inflation rate runs around 6%... everyone loses but the top 1% able to leverage their money.
quote:


Then you get to go find another job that pays $2.50/hr until finally you can go to a college you can't afford and use your hard work skills to become just as rich as everyone else who works hard... oh sorry, I mean 'works smart'.

Having to have a college degree in order to be able to count change is a modern dumb down education standard.
Contracting ginormous debt in order to get a meaningless degree while learning nothing useful is a very modern liberal concept.
Performance and ability should be rewarded not "paper certifications" that bear no relationship to ability that has become the politically correct way of running things today. Test abilities instead of giving certifications based on attendance would be a libertarian thesis.
quote:


Notice how we've gone from saying that rich people deserve their wealth because they work hard to saying that they deserve it for being smarter than everyone else?

I hear you saying that. I really do. Never heard a spokesman for a libertarian party group ever say it though.




bounty44 -> RE: Libertarian (12/9/2017 2:28:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
When it comes to abortion, they forgo all pretense of valuing individual rights and freedoms and emphasize that local law must be paramount, no matter how draconian.
This is followed by an 'if you don't like it, leave' type argument.


unless ive missed something in the thread and youre no longer talking about libertarians---not that I don't already think youre an intellectual wannabe who lacks integrity, but I suspect more evidence along those lines is good. from the first page of the thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

1.5 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

PRO FUCKING CHOICE]



whaaaaaaaaat, pro-life libertarians:

(from another past post, one in which you were in on. see my point about "learning"

because of course the baby has no right to liberty. %(*@&%& idiot.

Libertarians for Life - Official Site

Libertarian and Pro-Life Too

Libertarians for Life

quote:

Opposition to legal abortion[edit]

The anti-abortion libertarian group Libertarians for Life argues that humans in the zygotic, embryonic, and fetal stages of development have the same rights as humans in the neonatal stage and beyond. Doris Gordon of the group notes that the principles of both the U.S. Libertarian Party and Objectivist ethics require some obligation to children and counter with an appeal to the non-aggression principle:

Non-aggression is an ongoing obligation: it is never optional for anyone, even pregnant women. If the non-aggression obligation did not apply, then earning money versus stealing it and consensual sex versus rape would be morally indifferent behaviors. The obligation not to aggress is pre-political and pre-legal. It does not arise out of contract, agreement, or the law; rather, such devices presuppose this obligation. The obligation would exist even in a state of nature. This is because the obligation comes with our human nature, and we acquire this nature at conception.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_abortion

"PRO-FUCKING LIFE"


that look anything like "foregoing individual rights" to you??




MercTech -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 4:16:44 PM)

The consideration that a human life begins at conception is a religious tenet and not a political one.
Yep, some very religious people support Libertarian doctrines. And many of the very religious like the libertarian idea of large government staying the hell out of their lives to the greatest extent possible.

That the radius of concern with different hot button issues intersect doesn't mean they are the same circles.




bounty44 -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 4:25:05 PM)

in so much as an atheist or secular humanist or anyone can (and they do) believe it, no, its not a "religious tenet."

im not sure what else youre saying really.

my point in sharing what i did was just a vehement retort to blinker concerning what he dismissively said libertarians do with the abortion issue.







Lucylastic -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 4:32:02 PM)

individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.




MercTech -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 4:39:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

in so much as an atheist or secular humanist or anyone can (and they do) believe it, no, its not a "religious tenet."

im not sure what else youre saying really.

my point in sharing what i did was just a vehement retort to blinker concerning what he dismissively said libertarians do with the abortion issue.






I'm saying that the insistence that life begins at conception had its origins in religious dogma and not in political theory. Saying "libertarians believe ..." a point that has not been a plank in any libertarian platform deserves ridicule just like any statement that begins "women believe...." or "blacks believe ...".

My personal opinion is more that as legal test for person-hood; the "independent viability" standard has been a good place to begin the debate. That gives a ban on third trimester abortions but leaves first and second trimester as a matter of conscience and medical practice.




Lucylastic -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 4:45:28 PM)

I dont disagree with that, except that once a woman hits the third trimester, most abortions are for medical reasons, the life of the woman or fetal anomalies, not a last minute decision to abort for "convenience"
Of course there are exceptions, but it is a tiny tiny fraction of even third trimester abortions, let alone all abortions.
Education, sex ed and birth-control access would help with a lot of that.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 5:03:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
Hmmm... I agree with far too much of that.

Welcome to the Party. [:D]

The tea party?


The Libertarian Party. You know, the subject of the OP?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Libertarian (12/10/2017 5:07:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
individual liberty
(a fetus is not an individual till born)
Forcing your liberty over my body doesnt work, religious, or political
edited to add
YOUR liberty and YOUR religious freedom, has nothing to do with mine.


Not everyone agrees with that statement. That's a huge part of the issue, Lucy. I'd even be willing to bet that it's the biggest part of the issue.




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