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December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 5:13:43 AM   
DaddySatyr


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By Michael The Libertarian


A date that will live in infamy.

Seventy-six years ago a swarm of Japanese zeros launched from their carriers with only one desire: wipe out the American Pacific fleet (PacFlt).
This would accomplish two goals.

First, obviously, it would reduce the U.S.'s ability to defend itself from Japanese attack to territories in the South Pacific.

Second, it would mean the United States would have to reinforce the PacFlt with ships and resources from the Atlantic fleet (AtFlt.) which would greatly reduce our ability to make war against the Nazis on that front.

It was a move that was meant to defeat us as swiftly as possible because the Nazis knew they didn't want us entering into the war in Europe. In fact, the pacifist movement not with-standing, had we not been sucker-punched by Hirohito and Hideki Tojo, we might have entered into the war in Europe earlier, saving a few more lives than we did.

It's interesting to note: the architect of the battle plan at Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto, was not eager to attack the U.S. and was horrified to find out the declaration of war was delivered late, turning his “master stroke” into nothing more than what he considered a dishonorable exercise.

In "The Reluctant Admiral", Hiroyuki Agawa gives a quotation from Admiral Yamamoto to Ogata Taketora on January 9, 1942, which stated: "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."

It's difficult not to believe that since Japan was allied with Germany, this foolhardy strategy might have been hatched in Berlin; rather than Tokyo. Hitler was not known for his military prowess and a good portion of Japanese commanders realized that if the slightest thing went wrong with the plan and the PacFlt wasn't wiped out, Japan would have found themselves in a perilous situation much earlier on than eventually ensued.

When I was a wee scad and lived in New York, I lived next-door to a Japanese family. I won't give their last name, but I think I once read that its commonality in Japan puts it on a par with “Johnson” here, in the U.S.

This was a proud family. The father, “Ken” had been born in Japan. His wife, “Sally” had been born in the U.S. They met in an internment camp in Oklahoma.

In this country's history, certainly slavery and how we treated Africans is our biggest sinful shame, but the treatment of the Japanese, during this period in history, has to rank a close second (arguably, but this is “Pearl Harbor Day” so give me a break).

I was lucky enough to be able to hear first-hand stories from Ken and Sally about the state of this country from the perspective of people who weren't in the military, but who were still affected in a major way by WWII. Some of the stories I heard were down-right awful, but none were horrifying. We're not talking Nazi Concentration Camps, here, but neither are we talking a weekend in the Borscht Belt.

What has always amazed me was that thirty years after the fact, these people were staunch supporters of the U.S. and even defended the treatment they received, while not defending the actions that brought them to the camp.

I mention this because, while I might despise the tactics of December 7, 1941, when I think about Ken and Sally and their children (one of whom was a dear friend of mine), I find my anger and rhetoric are natural tempered.

When it comes to issues surrounding our war in the Pacific, neither side can claim to have walked with the angels after that horrible day in Hawai'i.

So, on a day like today, as I remember the honored dead, laying on the floor of Pearl Harbor, I also tend to give a thought to Ken and Sally and thousands like them who paid a price for looking a certain way, but also went on to live the American dream.



- Michael


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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 7:28:25 AM   
jlf1961


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while the gist of your post is correct, I must, just for historic accuracy, point out that the zero, or Mitsubishi A6M5 was but one of the aircraft used.

The Zero was a fighter.

Aichi D3A Val, an obsolete type of dive bomber, was quite effectively used, and one of these dropped the bomb (a modified 16 inch armor piercing shell) that blew up the USS Arizona.

Nakajima B5N (Kate) was the torpedo bomber used by the Japanese at Pearl harbor, along with a horizontal high altitude bomber version used for attacks on the various air fields.

And while your points were insightful, and even, unfortunately, all too familiar considering some actions in modern history, we must consider some parallels between Pearl harbor and other more recent attacks on US soil.

1) Navel Intelligence in Washington DC had been decrypting the Japanese diplomatic code for over a year, and had come to the conclusion that an attack on US installations was planned and had been set in motion, even going so far as to get the chairman of the Joint Chiefs to send warnings to US bases in the Philippines, Guam, Wake and Pearl Harbor three times before 7 Dec.

2) Five hours prior to the attack, the intercept team had decoded the final message proving that an attack was imminent for that morning, however due to atmospheric conditions, radio transmission was impossible so the warning was sent to Pearl Harbor by telegram, without the "Urgent" rider, which meant it was actually delivered during the attack.

3) US Army radar picked up the incoming flight at almost 200 miles out, but was informed it was a flight of B17 bombers enroute from the mainland on the way to Clarke AFB in the Philippines.

4) The USS Ward detected and sank a Japanese midget sub trying to enter the harbor some 3 hours prior to the attack, and because it was unconfirmed, the base did not go on alert.

While Adm Kimmel and General Short were held responsible for the failures of the US forces, the truth is that the fault lay in Washington, the fact that none of the over all field commanders were given access to the decrypted code intercepts.

General Short's mistake was being more concerned with sabotage, and thus moving all the aircraft to a central area to make it easier to guard them.

Adm. Kimmel, wisely sent his carriers to ferry aircraft to Midway, Wake and other outlying bases, but kept the slower battleships and and the bulk of the Pacific Fleet in harbor.

The Sunday morning commanders of the modern era tend to agree that had the ships sortied on that morning and had been caught leaving the harbor, more would have been killed and fewer ships would have been salvageable.

However, they also agree that if these same ships had been dispatched with the carriers, the Japanese would have found a basically empty harbor and the war might have actually been shorter over all.

However, as you pointed out, the true cost to the Americans were the Japanese Americans interred for the duration, the little known and heroic actions of Japanese Americans serving in the European theater of operations during the war against the Germans, trusted to fight there, against the enemies of their country, but not trusted to fight in the Pacific.

Those units have yet to be celebrated in movies, and in truth it only took forty years for the African Americans to be recognized for their actions as fighter pilots and soldiers in a segregated army.

_____________________________

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 7:51:13 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
while the gist of your post is correct, I must, just for historic accuracy, point out that the zero, or Mitsubishi A6M5 was but one of the aircraft used.

The Zero was a fighter.

Aichi D3A Val, an obsolete type of dive bomber, was quite effectively used, and one of these dropped the bomb (a modified 16 inch armor piercing shell) that blew up the USS Arizona.

Nakajima B5N (Kate) was the torpedo bomber used by the Japanese at Pearl harbor, along with a horizontal high altitude bomber version used for attacks on the various air fields.


The gist of my post was not to give an accurate accounting of the aircraft used in the attack. In fact, the only attempt at "history" was the quote from Yamamoto and that was just to bolster my contention that he wasn't gung ho on the idea. The gist of my post was my reflections (being a full generation and more, removed from the attack) acquired by knowing some wonderful people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And while your points were insightful, and even, unfortunately, all too familiar ...

2) Five hours prior to the attack, the intercept team had decoded the final ...


And the Japanese embassy representatives delivered the declaration forty-(seven?)some minutes after the attack began, which is why Yamamoto felt shame. I don't remember "blaming" anyone for the nature of the attack.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
However, they also agree that if these same ships had been dispatched with the carriers, the Japanese would have found a basically empty harbor and the war might have actually been shorter over all.

However, as you pointed out, the true cost to the Americans were the Japanese Americans interred for the duration, the little known and heroic actions of Japanese Americans serving in the European theater of operations during the war against the Germans, trusted to fight there, against the enemies of their country, but not trusted to fight in the Pacific.

Those units have yet to be celebrated in movies, and in truth it only took forty years for the African Americans to be recognized for their actions as fighter pilots and soldiers in a segregated army.


Oy gevalt.





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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 10:42:33 AM   
jlf1961


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Never said you did blame anyone for the attack.

What I mean with the all too familiar statement was the current trend to classify all of a group of people with the ones that carry out heinous acts of terror or violence.

For example:

All Muslims want to kill non Muslims

or

The only reason anyone wants to buy a gun is to kill

And I could go on.

The Japanese Americans were interred due to the actions of the Japanese Empire, many of those interred were 2nd, or even 4th generation Americans. I read George Takai's writings on his experiences at a Japanese internment camp as a child.

I personally think that the book 'Unlikely Liberators' should be required reading in US High Schools.

As for the shame Yamamoto felt, he was not the only one. Many of the air crew who flew in that raid felt the same. Interviews with the men who flew that raid on History Channel specials bare that out.

The one thing about Pearl Harbor that I found hypocritical, at least on the part of the US, was that Yamamoto's efforts to dissuade the Japanese military leaders against attacking the United States and bringing the US into the war was known by the United States Intelligence and Military high command. For example, the US war department knew exactly the reasons he was demoted and placed in command of the combined fleet.

Still, a special mission was set up to send US fighters after Yamamoto's plain and shoot it down when it was discovered he was on a tour of Japanese bases in the Solomons, which was successful.

Much of what we know about Yamamoto's feelings about the attack and his shame comes from his son, Yoshimasa, who released a number of letters his father had written to him and his mother prior to his father's plane being shot down.

Consider this, Admiral Yamamoto was a military leader who believed the less complicated a planned operation was the better. Yet he approved the plan to attack the Aleutians and Midway simultaneously.

The stated goal for that was to lure the US carriers north to Alaska so that when they responded to the attack on Midway, the Japanese would 'know' from what direction they would approach Midway.

Considering both the Japanese command and the US military considered the Aleutians as having zero tactical value other than as a source for weather information, he would have known Nimitz would not risk but a small portion of his carrier forces to respond to that part of the plan, even if he couldnt have known Navel intelligence had broken the Japanese operational code.

For that matter, how could Yamamoto at least no suspect that the code had been compromised? His operation in the Coral Sea had been thwarted by a, for the time immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack, a substantial US carrier force.

Yamamoto was a man that did not believe in luck or coincidence.

While it cannot be proved that he approved the plan with the idea that the US forces would be waiting for him, it is still a question why a man who was so cautous in his tactics approve such a plan with the idea that the US would respond in force to an attack 2,418 miles from Pearl Harbor?

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 11:56:07 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Never said you did blame anyone for the attack.

What I mean with the all too familiar statement was the current trend to classify all of a group of people with the ones that carry out heinous acts of terror or violence.



I did that? Where?





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 5:53:04 PM   
Greta75


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FR
Oh wow, I didn't know Dec 7 was the date of Pearl Harbour bombing.

No wonder an American friend of mine was watching Pearl Harbour for the first time and telling me it's an awful movie ha. I was wondering WTF was he doing watching Pearl Harbour, such an ancient movie bizarrely out of no where.

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 7:44:49 PM   
DocStrange


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I can only give my deepest sympathies to the families affected by that attack
I can only give the greatest praise to the people who fought to protect our freedom. If not for them, we might live in a very different world today.

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 8:19:16 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Never said you did blame anyone for the attack.

What I mean with the all too familiar statement was the current trend to classify all of a group of people with the ones that carry out heinous acts of terror or violence.



I did that? Where?







You didnt, I was referring to the America of today in general.

In other words, nothing has changed, it is still common in the US to blame who groups for the acts of some, in 1941 it was ALL Japanese.

Considering the service of Japanese American soldiers in WW2, you would have thought that the United States government would have figured out that Japanese Americans were Americans first, but they didnt.

And look how long it took for someone in DC to say we were wrong.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/7/2017 8:22:12 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR
Oh wow, I didn't know Dec 7 was the date of Pearl Harbour bombing.

No wonder an American friend of mine was watching Pearl Harbour for the first time and telling me it's an awful movie ha. I was wondering WTF was he doing watching Pearl Harbour, such an ancient movie bizarrely out of no where.



Have you ever read a history book? took a history class?

Not only did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, they attacked the Philippines, launched operations in Borneo, Malaysia and Indonesia, all within days of Dec 7.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/8/2017 4:59:45 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Have you ever read a history book? took a history class?

Not only did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, they attacked the Philippines, launched operations in Borneo, Malaysia and Indonesia, all within days of Dec 7.

Why would we want to learn about Pearl Harbour in school? That's American history.

And we also don't study about when Japanese attack other Asian countries. Kinda not relevant to us.

I guess in my country, we don't value history as a valuable subject to help you make money when you actually apply for a job. Like being a history major is not exactly seen as useful in life.

History knowledge unless you want to be a history professor is not gonna earn you big bucks in the practical world. I mean, what are the choices in life for jobs IF you are like the world's greatest history expert? Pretty limited. Few niches only. It's not even a compulsory subject over here, as it's not significant for University entry.

It's only good for bonding with friends with the same interests in history.

And the other thing is, why is it so important to remember dates of major historical events? What is the relevance to the future to remember these dates?

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/8/2017 5:11:48 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Have you ever read a history book? took a history class?

Not only did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, they attacked the Philippines, launched operations in Borneo, Malaysia and Indonesia, all within days of Dec 7.

Why would we want to learn about Pearl Harbour in school? That's American history.

And we also don't study about when Japanese attack other Asian countries. Kinda not relevant to us.

I guess in my country, we don't value history as a valuable subject to help you make money when you actually apply for a job. Like being a history major is not exactly seen as useful in life.

History knowledge unless you want to be a history professor is not gonna earn you big bucks in the practical world. I mean, what are the choices in life for jobs IF you are like the world's greatest history expert? Pretty limited. Few niches only. It's not even a compulsory subject over here, as it's not significant for University entry.

It's only good for bonding with friends with the same interests in history.

And the other thing is, why is it so important to remember dates of major historical events? What is the relevance to the future to remember these dates?



I don't agree with Jif too often, and being an isolationist, myself, I can kind of appreciate, the Japanese attacking other Asian countries as "kinda not relevant" to you, but on the whole, WWII was kind of a big event in world history. You'd think it might get an honorable mention in your educational system?





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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/8/2017 5:14:19 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I don't agree with Jif too often, and being an isolationist, myself, I can kind of appreciate, the Japanese attacking other Asian countries as "kinda not relevant" to you, but on the whole, WWII was kind of a big event in world history. You'd think it might get an honorable mention in your educational system?


It's a very brief mentioned. More details on from the time they landed in SG and the British surrendered us to them. But what happens in the rest of the world, is very very brief and super brief with no pearl harbour bombing mentioned at all.

I actually literally only heard of Pearl Harbour from the Michael Bay Movie, and not from our WW2 class which was only more detailed on what happened in Singapore during WW2.

Maybe it was a damn long time ago, WW2 history. I was 13.

But the super brief was, Japan attack US and US bomb Japan. And the war ended. That's the gist of it. Didn't go into specifics. The only thing I remembered was US pretty much stayed out of the war, until Japan went to bomb them. Then they muscled up and got involved. USA ended WW2 by bombing Japan. (Which now as an adult, I see even US folks debating this version of history, so the worst thing about history is, people can't even agree on the official version!)

And I remember in my secular history class, my teacher who is christian insist Jesus was a real living historical figure verified by history, which now I know that is not true and pretty sure that is illegal for her to be teaching that in a secular school ha as that was not a content in our exams or textbooks.

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RE: December 7, 1941 - 12/8/2017 12:24:58 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


History knowledge unless you want to be a history professor is not gonna earn you big bucks in the practical world. I mean, what are the choices in life for jobs IF you are like the world's greatest history expert? Pretty limited. Few niches only. It's not even a compulsory subject over here, as it's not significant for University entry.


And the other thing is, why is it so important to remember dates of major historical events? What is the relevance to the future to remember these dates?




There is an axiom that is all too true, "those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."

For example part of the situation that led to the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire under Julius Caesar was the fact the Republic had developed a top heavy corrupt bureaucracy, and failed the citizens.

Now the United States, especially in the last few decades has developed a corrupt top heavy bureaucracy, escessive government regulations, a fucking huge government, elected officials that could care less about the will of the people and added to that we can add a large percentage of the voting population who are xenophobic and quick to blame everyone else for the countries ills and completely ignore their own part and participation in making it that way, so not only are we following the example of the Roman republic, but we are also following the example of the last years of The Weimar Republic.

The only real difference is that the collapse of both of those government did not have near the long term ramifications as the collapse of say the American Republic, simply because it was a pre nuclear age. Now the US government could collapse, be replaced with a dictatorship and exterminate the population of the planet.

Another point about knowing history, even if it is just a overall view, history teaches us not to be complacent, even seemingly trivial political or cultural events and trends can and more often than not, do have long lasting impacts on cultures, societies and civilizations.

Finally, the events that led to the collapse of great civilizations can happen to the modern world.

To give two examples:

The Maya of central America developed a civilization that, even without the technology present in Europe was equal to the old world and, in some cases exceeded it.

Yet, the move of the people to the cities over stressed local resources to the point an extended drought led to the fall of the entire empire.

The same reason was the basic cause of the fall of the Anasazi, who built the great settlements of the type seen in Chaco Canyon, a long drought brought a collapse of the society which led to desperate measures to survive, including cannibalism. This led to the abandonment of the Chaco Canyon and similar settlements and the move to cliff dwellings in an effort to protect themselves from each other.

In recent years we have seen the collapse of various governments and societies as a direct result of localized and extended famine. Somalia, and other countries.

Just because the first world countries are technologically advanced, technology does not grow food in extended droughts, and while water wells is an option, people tend to forget the aquifers are replenished by rain.

And while I do not believe in biblical 'signs' and such, I do believe in historic respondent trends to cultural, political and climatic shifts.

And unfortunately, while the actions of a one person or even a small group of people are anything but predicable, historically speaking, large groups, like a country's population, are very predicable.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Greta75)
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