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RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 6:36:05 AM   
MasterJaguar01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
House MUST re-vote tomorrow.
Awaiting Senate to vote tonight.
They must be in a hurry to run home for a couple of weeks.
Listening to the news is making me nervous.
It looks like it is going to pass.
It looks like the rich are going to get richer, and the middle class will be screwed.
Thoughts, on the tax bill?


The rich are going to get richer, tax bill or not. It's what they do. It's how they got rich in the first place (more often than not).

The Middle Class is still going to get richer.

CPA's might not get richer. CPA's might realize a cut in pay.




If the middle class get richer, then it will be in SPITE of this tax bill. It is a disaster for the middle class. Particularly my own tax situation.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 6:50:58 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
the tax bill ensures the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer.
the question is
why?

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\(•_•)
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 7:05:04 AM   
servantforuse


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How does a tax cut make the poor poorer ?

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 7:36:11 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
You havent seen the tax bill? or read it?
why am I not surprised.
but as you arent poor, dont worry about it.
keep on.


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:14:59 AM   
servantforuse


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That doesn't answer my question. Explain to me how a tax cut makes the poor poorer.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:26:17 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
They might, if they felt that demand would support it. Regardless of what their tax rate is. Ksep in mind, large businesses are flush with capital now. Investment in new machinery has taken place and will continue to take place. None of this has anything to do with tax policy.

The whole reason corporate tax cuts are permanent is so the actions businesses take as a result of the tax changes, will also be permanent. Businesses may not be actively investing in their infrastructure because of the current tax rates.
Plus, individual tax cuts don't have the same impact on the economy as corporate tax cuts have, and the GOP had to comply with the Byrd Rule, so individual tax cuts were sunset. Much like with the Medicare reimbursement cuts that used to have a "Doc Fix" Bill passed every year to prevent it, the tax increases will likely not happen. It's political gamesmanship (aka bullshit) that both parties use to game the system.

Contrary to what the libs want to pretend, it was Sanders and another Dem who brought up the Byrd rule
and keep the individual tax cuts from being permanent.


If the Byrd Rule has to be followed, it doesn't matter who points it out, imo.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:32:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
anyone besides me finding the democrats in general, and the comrades in here's argument of "it raises the deficit/adds to the debt" disingenuous? as if all of a sudden, they are concerned with fiscal responsibility?


Yes, it's disingenuous.

I also want to point out, it's disingenuous when the the GOP argues about increasing deficits/debt when Democrats are leading Congress and/or in the White House.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:36:24 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
you need to distance yourself when you discuss this, Butch. I work for my healthcare, and I pay a portion of my healthcare. I am earning my healthcare. I will not give it up, especially not for someone I have no connection with whatsoever.

She works ...she pays what she can... she does not want to take your healthcare away... why do you want to take hers? I now see we are very different. I don't have to know someone to have compassion for them... I don't have to know someone to give them aid... I am willing to give up some of my hard earned money to help the less fortunate and all I ask is my money is not wasted or used by someone that does not need it. I am very fiscally conservative and I am careful where money goes and what it buys... But I cannot think of a better use for money than to help my fellow man in need. It fills the heart... you should try it now and then.
We do not serve ourselves or God by distancing ourselves from suffering humanity.
Butch


You get to decide whatever you want for you, Butch. At least have the decency to let others decide for themselves.

And, go fuck yourself for implying that I don't help my fellow man. You have no idea (and I know you don't really give a shit about how much I give; you're just posturing to try and score points).




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:40:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Bama, we could go round and round, on this as usual.
Sliding scale, means people would pay for insurance, based on income.
You can be healthy at 25, and not healthy at 75.
You could be healthy all of your life, and have family members who are sick all their lives.
I think it all comes out in the wash.
I would rather see my tax money spent on free/or affordable health care, than the way it is almost always spent/squandered now.
In fact, outside of the military, I can't think of a better use of federal and state tax money.

The government can always bail out corporations, banks, everyone in other countries, yet can't subsidize health care for its own citizens?

THAT makes no sense!


Government shouldn't be bailing anyone or anything out. There is no authority granted for it to do so. I'd support a Constitutional Amendment authorizing the Federal Government to provide universal care (modeled after the NHS, I'd say), but I don't see that happening, and it would be a clusterfuck for years while everything that would need to be done got taken care of and the dust settled.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:52:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
I'm old fashioned enough to think that if you've paid for something, then receiving it is a right rather than a privilege, but obviously that's not how libertarians look at public funded and state owned services they want to sell off to the private sector.


The argument being put out is that it's a right, first and foremost. I completely disagree with that. And, if it's not an "inalienable human right," government isn't there to secure that right. Having health care is a privilege that can be provided by government, as long as that's the choice of those being governed (and authority is official granted to the government). That authority has not been granted.

When you're taking part in the market for some thing (and that thing can be anything, including health care), the agreement between the one who provides (or creates) the thing and you (ie. the price) does include transfer of the right of use. In that sense, you have a right to it.

In the scenario of health care, until there is mutual agreement between the care provider, you, and the NHS, you have no right to the care. That there is an agreement already in place between the NHS and the provider means you do have a right to the care. But, it's not a human right. It's a civil right.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:57:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX
If healthcare is a "right" then it follows that to some degree healthcare provides are slaves because they cannot be free agents providing a service on the terms they willingly agree to, so long as bureaucrats control their compensation etc
And the further a system delves into the leftist ideology the more slave-like they (and everyone else) become


This is something that flies over the heads of those that think healthcare is a basic human right.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:59:34 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
You havent seen the tax bill? or read it?
why am I not surprised.
but as you arent poor, dont worry about it.
keep on.


How about answering the question and explaining how you think the poor getting a tax cut is going to make them more poor?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 9:13:56 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
anyone besides me finding the democrats in general, and the comrades in here's argument of "it raises the deficit/adds to the debt" disingenuous? as if all of a sudden, they are concerned with fiscal responsibility?


Yes, it's disingenuous.

I also want to point out, it's disingenuous when the the GOP argues about increasing deficits/debt when Democrats are leading Congress and/or in the White House.




I agree...and im always disappointed when republicans don't act with the fiscal responsibility they purport to hold to.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 9:17:34 AM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2323
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
anyone besides me finding the democrats in general, and the comrades in here's argument of "it raises the deficit/adds to the debt" disingenuous? as if all of a sudden, they are concerned with fiscal responsibility?


Yes, it's disingenuous.

I also want to point out, it's disingenuous when the the GOP argues about increasing deficits/debt when Democrats are leading Congress and/or in the White House.




I agree...and im always disappointed when republicans don't act with the fiscal responsibility they purport to hold to.



Like with this tax bill?

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 9:26:24 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
anyone besides me finding the democrats in general, and the comrades in here's argument of "it raises the deficit/adds to the debt" disingenuous? as if all of a sudden, they are concerned with fiscal responsibility?


Yes, it's disingenuous.

I also want to point out, it's disingenuous when the the GOP argues about increasing deficits/debt when Democrats are leading Congress and/or in the White House.




I agree...and im always disappointed when republicans don't act with the fiscal responsibility they purport to hold to.



Like with this tax bill?

Well we've been hearing practically from the roof tops, repubs are the small govt., fiscally responsible party, until they aren't...like for 40 years since Reagan.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 3:15:54 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2323
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX
If healthcare is a "right" then it follows that to some degree healthcare provides are slaves because they cannot be free agents providing a service on the terms they willingly agree to, so long as bureaucrats control their compensation etc
And the further a system delves into the leftist ideology the more slave-like they (and everyone else) become


This is something that flies over the heads of those that think healthcare is a basic human right.




The whole concept of healthcare as a right is rather silly. I think the left (e.g. Bernie Sanders) is confusing good policy with rights.

Healthcare is one product, that if certain people don't get it, we ALL end up paying for it one way or another. Therefore, it is good policy to have some kind of access to basic healthcare for everyone.

That does NOT make it a right.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 4:31:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
They might, if they felt that demand would support it. Regardless of what their tax rate is. Ksep in mind, large businesses are flush with capital now. Investment in new machinery has taken place and will continue to take place. None of this has anything to do with tax policy.

The whole reason corporate tax cuts are permanent is so the actions businesses take as a result of the tax changes, will also be permanent. Businesses may not be actively investing in their infrastructure because of the current tax rates.
Plus, individual tax cuts don't have the same impact on the economy as corporate tax cuts have, and the GOP had to comply with the Byrd Rule, so individual tax cuts were sunset. Much like with the Medicare reimbursement cuts that used to have a "Doc Fix" Bill passed every year to prevent it, the tax increases will likely not happen. It's political gamesmanship (aka bullshit) that both parties use to game the system.

Contrary to what the libs want to pretend, it was Sanders and another Dem who brought up the Byrd rule
and keep the individual tax cuts from being permanent.


If the Byrd Rule has to be followed, it doesn't matter who points it out, imo.


I know that but too many people were acting like it wasn't part of the rules,the
repubs just thoughtit would be fun to cut off the tax break.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 8:20:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I know that but too many people were acting like it wasn't part of the rules,the
repubs just thoughtit would be fun to cut off the tax break.


As with most things politics anymore, the whole truth isn't necessarily important if partial truths can win political points.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 10:46:37 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

"some other "fool" at mises spouting "childish crap""

[or "uninformed bullshit"]

quote:

How Government Regulations Made Healthcare So Expensive

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," declared philosopher George Santayana.

The U.S. “health care cost crisis” didn’t start until 1965. The government increased demand with the passage of Medicare and Medicaid while restricting the supply of doctors and hospitals. Health care prices responded at twice the rate of inflation (Figure 1). Now, the U.S. is repeating the same mistakes with the unveiling of Obamacare (a.k.a. “Medicare and Medicaid for the middle class”).

Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman wrote that medical price inflation since 1965 has been caused by the rising demand for health-care coupled with restricted supply (Friedman 1992). Robert Alford explained the minority view: "The market reformers wish to preserve the control of the individual physician over his practice, over the hospital, and over his fees, and they simply wish to open up the medical schools in order to meet the demand for doctors, to give patients more choice among doctors, clinics, and hospitals, and to make that choice a real one by public subsidies for medical bills" (Alford 1975)…

Since the early 1900s, medical special interests have been lobbying politicians to reduce competition. By the 1980s, the U.S. was restricting the supply of physicians, hospitals, insurance and pharmaceuticals, while subsidizing demand. Since then, the U.S. has been trying to control high costs by moving toward something perhaps best described by the House Budget Committee: “In too many areas of the economy — especially energy, housing, finance, and health care — free enterprise has given way to government control in “partnership” with a few large or politically well-connected companies” (Ryan 2012). The following are past major laws and other policies implemented by the Federal and state governments that have interfered with the health care marketplace (HHS 2013)

•In 1910, the physician oligopoly was started during the Republican administration of William Taft after the American Medical Association lobbied the states to strengthen the regulation of medical licensure and allow their state AMA offices to oversee the closure or merger of nearly half of medical schools and also the reduction of class sizes. The states have been subsidizing the education of the number of doctors recommended by the AMA.

•In 1925, prescription drug monopolies begun after the federal government led by Republican President Calvin Coolidge started allowing the patenting of drugs. (Drug monopolies have also been promoted by government research and development subsidies targeted to favored pharmaceutical companies.)

•In 1945, buyer monopolization begun after the McCarran-Ferguson Act led by the Roosevelt Administration exempted the business of medical insurance from most federal regulation, including antitrust laws. (States have also more recently contributed to the monopolization by requiring health care plans to meet standards for coverage.)

•In 1946, institutional provider monopolization begun after favored hospitals received federal subsidies (matching grants and loans) provided under the Hospital Survey and Construction Act passed during the Truman Administration. (States have also been exempting non-profit hospitals from antitrust laws.)

•In 1951, employers started to become the dominant third-party insurance buyer during the Truman Administration after the Internal Revenue Service declared group premiums tax-deductible.

•In 1965, nationalization was started with a government buyer monopoly after the Johnson Administration led passage of Medicare and Medicaid which provided health insurance for the elderly and poor, respectively.

•In 1972, institutional provider monopolization was strengthened after the Nixon Administration started restricting the supply of hospitals by requiring federal certificate-of-need for the construction of medical facilities.

•In 1974, buyer monopolization was strengthened during the Nixon Administration after the Employee Retirement Income Security Act exempted employee health benefit plans offered by large employers (e.g., HMOs) from state regulations and lawsuits (e.g., brought by people denied coverage).

•In 1984, prescription drug monopolies were strengthened during the Reagan Administration after the Drug Price Competition and Patent Term Restoration Act permitted the extension of patents beyond 20 years. (The government has also allowed pharmaceuticals companies to bribe physicians to prescribe more expensive drugs.)

•In 2003, prescription drug monopolies were strengthened during the Bush Administration after the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act provided subsidies to the elderly for drugs.

•In 2014, nationalization will be strengthened after the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010 (“Obamacare”) provided mandates, subsidies and insurance exchanges, and the expansion of Medicaid…

The search for alternative economic systems should include free markets through a closer reexamination of the health care marketplace before 1980 to 1990 to determine whether prices offered by physicians and hospitals were ever set by the laws of supply and demand.

Economist Henry Hazlitt provides the following description:

Prices are fixed through the relationship of supply and demand. ... When people want more of an article, they offer more for it. The price goes up. This increases the profits of those who make the article. Because it is now more profitable to make that article than others, the people already in the business expand their production of it, and more people are attracted to the business. This increased supply then reduces the price…

Since 1965, medical prices have exploded with physician fees (Figure 6). From 1965 through 1993, the price for medical care increased by 699% and physician fees 675% compared to only 359% for all goods and services measured in the Consumer Price Index. Today, medical prices and physician fees continue to grow at about twice the rate of inflation. Hospital prices have increased at almost four times. U.S. health-care spending has increased from 6% of the Gross Domestic Product in 1965 to 18% ($3 trillion) today…

The lack of competition between hospitals and other health care institutions also limited cost control incentives placed on executives. The lack of competition between both medical institutions and the doctors that control most of their spending could explain why hospital costs have been inflating twice as fast as even physician fees. Hospitals are loaded with waste and inefficiency. For example, a hospital stitch costs more than $500 today.

The U.S. health-care market appears to behave according to laws of supply and demand (at least until the 1980s). Assuming government subsidy of the elderly and poor serves the public good, the cause of the “U.S. health care cost crisis” appears to be that government didn’t allow the supply of doctors and hospitals to respond to increased consumer demands. Politicians from both major political parties created a self-fulfilling prophesy by assuming markets couldn’t work in health care.

The obvious solution is to increase the supply of physicians and hospitals to meet demand. Unfortunately, if medical schools doubled their class sizes by next year, it could still take over 20 years to achieve the number of doctors relative to population found in continental Western Europe. Competition could be achieved quicker by relaxing the licensing requirements placed on para-medicals (e.g., nurses), and possibly also foreign educated doctors, to compete with U.S. physicians to the degree to which they are qualified.


https://mises.org/blog/how-government-regulations-made-healthcare-so-expensive




Yea, you and Friedman are right, it's foolish for people to think they should want to live. Never mind that it has been 100 years of a culture of monopoly from Edison to Gates.

The alternative to Milton's ridiculous postulation is to be cost-effective for everybody else, not yourself, lower demand for your health care and do the right thing...just die.

Yea Americans let's go for the best diamond-studded health care we can have...for the rich.

There you have it all right here kinkroids, you are to turn down your own health care and rather than be a burden on society and provide billion$ in profits taking care of them...you are to die.

Why am I not surprised ?

One of the best primers on the callousness, greed and corruption of the most crucial capitalist endeavors causing in fact among the shortage life terms in the industrialized world. A country that spends $10,000 per year for every man, woman and child by far the highest in the world that without Medicare, would have us still dying in our 60's.

Isn't that precious ?

The high cost of govt. regulations is very often in the interest of the providers and that 'high cost' is almost always...high profit.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/25/2017 10:51:44 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDrakk

You had a gander at the debt lately? Massive Failure by the fiscally irresponsible, factless, rightist communist conspiracy comrades


Obama just doubled it

.....after W doubled it $5 trill...$10 trill.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/25/2017 11:01:07 PM >


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 220
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