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It is time to face reality - 1/13/2018 10:11:04 AM   
jlf1961


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The human race is going down the toilet at speeds that defy the light speed barrier, and for proof you need to go no further than facebook or any show that has to put the "Do not try this at home" disclaimer.

Seriously, perfectly innocent comments or a 'remember when' photo posted to social media can be twisted into some meaning that was never intended.

When a statue is considered so powerful that it is the cause of racial tensions or 'offends the morals' due to who it was or what it depicts.

A school teacher is fired for having his art students look at flash cards of works by the great masters because of the offensive nature of the works, and he got the damn set of cards out of the school's own library!

When an orange 69 charger with a confederate flag from a comedy tv show is called racist. Clearly they never watched the tv show.

Hell, I recently heard a young woman publicly demean another middle aged woman who was wearing a Betty Boop tshirt as promoting sexist treatment of women.

I thought that was funny as hell since a tshirt with Lucy Van Pelt (google it) who constantly insulted, demeaned and injured a male in a comic strip is considered 'good taste.'

A white person using the term nigger is a racist, an African American using the term in reference to one of his own is perfectly acceptable.

A woman calling another woman a bitch is fine, a man doing it is being sexist or worse.

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/13/2018 10:21:49 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
When an orange 69 charger with a confederate flag from a comedy tv show is called racist. Clearly they never watched the tv show.

I thought part of the reason it was removed from the telly was because it had an all white cast, which some did think was a bit off for a show that was set in Georgia?
It's irritating that the neo nazis and white supremacists have usurped possession of the confederate flag, but until such time as something's done about that, it's going to get associated with the KKK and the rest of the alt right rather than the history of the civil war or the more appealing bits of Southern culture.

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/13/2018 3:23:59 PM   
DesFIP


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It’s not really possible to extol the advantages of the confederacy without acknowledging that it was based on slavery.

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/13/2018 5:20:12 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
When an orange 69 charger with a confederate flag from a comedy tv show is called racist. Clearly they never watched the tv show.

I thought part of the reason it was removed from the telly was because it had an all white cast, which some did think was a bit off for a show that was set in Georgia?
It's irritating that the neo nazis and white supremacists have usurped possession of the confederate flag, but until such time as something's done about that, it's going to get associated with the KKK and the rest of the alt right rather than the history of the civil war or the more appealing bits of Southern culture.



Actually the reason it went off the air was the two original stars left the show.

As far as an all white cast, at the same time Dukes of Hazard was on the air, there were sitcoms with all black or mostly black casts, in some instances based in metropolitan areas that were if not 50/50, white was the majority, and no one said anything about those.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It’s not really possible to extol the advantages of the confederacy without acknowledging that it was based on slavery.



Actually, while everyone hammers home that point, I must point out that before the US Army got all prime and proper, combat personnel could sew state patches and even the stars and bars on their BDU's. My unit was pretty equally mixed as far as minorities go, but I saw just as many black troopers with the OD stars and bars on their arms as whites, since the more modern idea behind the 'rebel philosophy' is basically thumbing your nose at the bullshit that people accept as 'normal.'

Personally, when they take down the statues to General G. A. Custer who led his vaunted 7th cavalry on an attack on a 'hostile' village of Indians that a) were on the reservation, and b) were unarmed, I might actually agree to the removal.

Oh, and U.S. Army Col. John Chivington, and Col. Forsythe who commanded the 7th at Wounded Knee and when congress rescinds the Medals of Honor awarded to 20 soldiers who took part in the massacre at wounded knee, again I might support the removal of those statues.

As for the Stars and Bars, I will agree to its banning when congress passes a law redesigning the flag that flew at the head of the columns of troops that were charged with the elimination or subjugation of the natives of this continent. Oh, and get rid of the Statues of Grant and Sherman and Sheridan while you are at it, since the supported the whole sale slaughter of Native Americans.

I mean, 133 years of what amounts to US supported genocide versus five years of the CSA?

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/14/2018 11:44:48 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Actually the reason it went off the air was the two original stars left the show.

My mistake: I thought the two ringers only lasted for one season and were then ousted to bring back the original leads and the viewing figures had recovered by the time the plug was pulled.

As for Chivington, his involvement at Wounded Knee isn't even the worst bit of Indian abuse he has on his resume, is it? He was responsible for the Sand Creek massacre as well.

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/14/2018 12:43:37 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Actually the reason it went off the air was the two original stars left the show.

My mistake: I thought the two ringers only lasted for one season and were then ousted to bring back the original leads and the viewing figures had recovered by the time the plug was pulled.

As for Chivington, his involvement at Wounded Knee isn't even the worst bit of Indian abuse he has on his resume, is it? He was responsible for the Sand Creek massacre as well.



Never said that Chivington was at wounded knee.

I put a comma in before adding the name of the bastard that did command the troops at wounded knee.

Oh, funny thing, the 'heroes' of the Union during the civil war, Grant, Sheridan, Sherman all burned crops (including food crops) barns (with livestock in them,) confiscated livestock (cows, and pigs, the animals normally butchered on a farm to feed folks) all those little tactics that are NOW CONSIDERED WAR CRIMES.

But hey, its perfectly okay to celebrate the Union generals that brought the south to its knees by causing starvation and unnecessary hardship to non combatants.

Of course, I started this thread out of the stupidity of people that get so bent out of shape over cartoon characters, statues of men long dead, over the hypocrisy of people calling others racist for using the same damn word they use to in reference to friends or others of their own race.

But hey, lets go a bit further here:

Women complaining when men stare at their ass in a store while they themselves are wearing shorts or clothing with some stupid saying printed across their ass like "hot stuff."

Or how about a restaurant chain Sambo's that was hounded out of business because of the 'alleged' reference to a children's story 'Little Black Sambo.'
Didnt matter that the name came from combining the letters from the names of the two men that started the damn restaurant SAm Battistone, Sr., and Newell BOhnett.

As for the n-word, the late Richard Pryor made millions using that word in his comedy routines. However, before his death, he came to the realization that even though blacks used in in reference to members of their own race, it was, no matter how one meant it, not any different than a white using it as a description of blacks. He incorporated his epiphany in his last stand up bits, and was criticized for it, by African Americans.

Or how about the incident at a California high school where a couple of kids were sent home from school to change their clothes because they were wearing t shirts with the American flag on them, on Cinco de Mayo. A Mexican holiday?

Of course, there is the Latino community protests in Texas on Texas Independence day, completely ignorant of the fact that many Mexicans fought with the Texans for Texas independence.

Which of course would be like citizens of the UK from former British colonies protesting the celebration of Commonwealth day, would you not agree?

Or British ex pats living in the US protesting the celebration of the 4th of July.

Or the local college forced by the governing body of College sports, the NCAA, to change their mascot from the Indians to Wally the War Hawk. Didnt matter that the damn school was founded to give American Indians a chance at a low cost college education, hence the adoption of the mascot the Indians.

Or the continuing protests of the names of professional sports teams like the "Redskins," "The Braves," "The Cleveland Indians," "Kansas City Chefs," and others.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/14/2018 4:37:57 PM   
DesFIP


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I’m not nearly as well read in Civil War history as you, but surely the Union generals didn’t do much different than Confederate types like Quantrill.

Regardless, it’s still not a reason to sidestep the horrific reality of slavery. This reminds me of people who are apologists for Mussolini by saying that at least he made the trains run on time. One does not excuse the other


< Message edited by DesFIP -- 1/14/2018 4:38:29 PM >


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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/15/2018 4:59:13 AM   
WhoreMods


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Unless I'm misreading, jeff's point is that slavery wasn't an issue for most of the north until it was claimed in hindsight as the true cause of the war in order to claim the moral high ground despite the rather ugly conduct of most of the civil war on both sides. Certainly slavery only became an issue as part of the economic pissing match between the pro-industrialisation and a skilled workforce union and the pro-agriculture and mass unpaid labour confederacy. Certainly there were just as many abolitionists in the south as the north prior to the civil war. It's difficult to dismiss slavery and the racism that went with it in the 'States as a purely southern thing, so claiming that the civil war was a moral crusade to abolish rather than an attempt to prevent several of the richest states from seceding isn't entirely convincing.

Mind you, I did misread his reference to Chivington already, so that could be completely wrong.

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/15/2018 8:24:59 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I’m not nearly as well read in Civil War history as you, but surely the Union generals didn’t do much different than Confederate types like Quantrill.

Regardless, it’s still not a reason to sidestep the horrific reality of slavery. This reminds me of people who are apologists for Mussolini by saying that at least he made the trains run on time. One does not excuse the other




I noticed you sidestepped the very real fact that those Union Generals regarded as heroes in the fight to end slavery were responsible for the 10 of thousands of native Americans, and fail, in a very real way to admit to the racism of those acts and hypocrisy of condemning the south for the racism of slavery.

Let me hit you with some very real facts:

1) After the Indians were forced onto reservations:
A) the benevolent US Government supplied them with rancid beef, alcohol, and food deemed unfit to sale in stores or supply the US Army (which rarely got decent rations, hence the fact that in the 1800's about half of the active duty servicemen suffered various food born maladies ranging from dysentery from bad water and bad meat to constant diarrhea from food poisoning.)
B) Sense the troops assigned to patrol the reservations were so far from town and the company of white women, soldiers were immune from being prosecuted for raping Indian women.
C) Children were taken from their families and sent to boarding schools under the program to teach them how to live like civilized people, these schools beat them for speaking their own language, forced them to cut their hair, and wear white people's clothing. The last of these schools were closed in the mid 1960's.
D) Despite the fact they were told they could hunt on the reservations, an Indian caught with a weapon of any kind was subject to being jailed and tried for being a hostile.

2) President Jackson ordered the forced removal of tens of thousands of American Indians from North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and other south eastern states despite the fact that the Indian Relocation Act of 1830 was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. Google Trail of Tears for the results and estimated death toll.

And before you go and claim that all that was in the past, here are some modern facts:

For every dollar in federal education funds spent in the US, 2 cents goes to the schools on reservations.
For every 10 dollars spent on public health care by the federal government, 50 cents goes to Indian reservations, many clinics on those reservations are using equipment so outdated that it is impossible to find parts to keep them working.
For every 1000 dollars the Federal government makes on mining and mineral leases on indian lands, the tribe that actually owns that land gets less than a dollar.
Where 'affirmative action' promotes the rights of African Americans and other minorities in the US to go to which ever college they wish, the law does not give the same consideration to Native Americans.

Of the 597 treaties made with Native Americans, the US government broke 590, some as recently as the 1960's and seventies when uranium was discovered on some western reservations in the name of 'national security.'

Of the environmental disasters resulting from uranium and other heavy metal mining on Indian Reservations, including 56 super fund sites, none have been dealt with, leaving some parts of the Navajo and Hopi reservations so toxic that one needs HAZMAT gear to even walk there.

In short, the United States fought for the elimination of slavery, while at the same time promoting the ethnic and cultural elimination of the American Indians, and continued what could only be labeled as genocide in the so called 'Indian Wars' until the last one ended in 1918.

So, why the fuck should the confederate battle flag by condemned as racist when the stars and stripes with a much longer history of racism and genocide be celebrated?

Please by all means, justify that.

Oh, and here is a real good one for you, committed the the US Justice Department and FBI during the 1970's.

After the occupation of Wounded Knee on the Pine Ridge Reservation was resolved a string of murders were investigated by the FBI and remain unsolved, one victim was declared by a Federal Medical Examiner as having died of exposure, this despite the fact she had a bullet wound to the back of the head.

In 2012, the department of Justice reopened all of these cases and re examined the conviction of Leonard Peltier.

Nothing has come out of this reopening of the cases, and in the case of Leonard Peltier, while the justice department concluded there were numerous irregularities in the case, including the fact that one defendant acquitted in an earlier trial admitted on the stand that he shot one of the dead FBI agents, there was no grounds for a new trial.

This was despite the fact that the judge in the case threw out evidence allowed in the earlier trials, and the fact that federal prosecutor stated in his closing argument "we cannot prove the defendant fired the fatal shots, we cannot prove that the defendant even handled the murder weapon, but two FBI agents are dead and someone has to pay."

Now, once more, which flag has a longer history of racism?




_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/15/2018 10:03:30 AM   
DesFIP


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I do not promote or approve of genocide in any way, shape or form.

The fact that this needs to be specified says terrible things about humanity.

My point was that one side killing Native Americans does not excuse the other side from killing African-Americans.
Russians only holding pogroms does not make them superior to Nazis having concentration camps.



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RE: It is time to face reality - 1/15/2018 1:56:43 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I do not promote or approve of genocide in any way, shape or form.

The fact that this needs to be specified says terrible things about humanity.

My point was that one side killing Native Americans does not excuse the other side from killing African-Americans.
Russians only holding pogroms does not make them superior to Nazis having concentration camps.





No, but you are condemning one flag with a much shorter history of racism than the other, and not even addressing the points I made except that you do not approve of genocide.

So, does not condemning the confederate battle flag without even mentioning the exceeding long period of time the US flag flew over the persecution, murder, subjugation, and cultural erasure of a who race seem just a bit hypocritical?

Of course, there is an old saying in the study of history, the victors never admit to their own sins.

Like I said before, I will support the striking of the stars and bars and the removal of the statues of confederate generals when the US people demand the stars and stripes be changed and every memorial to every white bastard who commanded troops involved in the attempted extermination of native Americans is removed, until then, I consider this a case of rampant hypocrisy.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 11
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