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trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 2:26:59 AM

diamonddreamlove

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I recently had a conversation with my Dom about trust and hard limits. His view is that if i trust Him enough to accept His collar (distant future) that i should trust Him enough to not have hard limits. Meaning that i would trust Him enough to know He would not harm me and that i would be safe in placing my trust in Him. I would like to know if in fact accepting a collar negates the need to have hard limits. I know in my heart He would not cross the boundaries i have set as hard limits but feel that they still need to be set and acknowledged as my hard limits, while His opinion is that if i have hard limits then i am saying i do not trust Him. I would appreciate hearing O/others opinions on this matter please and thank Y/you for Y/your help.

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 2:54:45 AM

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I certainly believe he's wrong to relate a hard limit as meaning you don't trust him - two different things! But for him to say it tends to make me wonder if he can be trusted, actually....

Whether it's physical or psychological, many subs have limits for reasons.... While it's true that, with time and trust, having the right Dom/me may mean some or all of those limits may eventually be erased, I personally don't see them as a barrier that must be broken down in order for a sub to "prove" herself to me.... It's not a challenge that *must* be met and overcome, at least, not to me!

Probably the most important thing to me is understanding why she has the limit she does. If it's a problem for me and I get a vibe she's unlikely to relinquish it no matter what, then I'll probably have to evaluate the worth of continuing to a relationship level.... But I've never had that happen.

Focus.

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 4:34:37 AM

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To me, trust has nothing to do with it...... I am not a mind reader, if I am not told what limits a slave has, how will I know? That is one of the first things I want to know when considering a slave. If I don't agree with them, we talk about it, if there is still differences then I either accept the limits she has or say thanks but no thanks. Not everyone has the same opinions about the severity of things, Master and slave need to atleast be on the same page.

Be Well,
Darkside

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 5:36:23 AM

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Cheers,

I believe it is possible that its a question of semantics, or else I'm misinterpreting.

If I know that you have a hard limit, and I acknowledge it and accept it, then if we don't need to talk about it any more (because you trust me implicitly), you still have your hard limit but it's covered up in silence. No further need to discuss.

I don't know if this was also mentioned in your post, but I'll throw this out. Some people, when they transcend from a D/s relationship into a M/s relationship believe that 'safe words' can be dissolved under similar reasoning. 'If I know you well enough to know your likes, dislikes, tolerances, etc., and if you know me well enough to trust and surrender yourself to me (knowing that I won't hurt you badly), then we don't need safe words.' Some do, others might not.

In any case, just because you have decided to submit to a man to a greater or lesser degree, does not mean that communication ends. There should still be a certain measure of give-and-take. Maybe in your mind, hard limits have softened and he needs to know. Maybe a new issue has come up that might or might not have to do with limits. Issues can be brought up as 'ideas' or 'suggestions' that he can wrap his mind around and make new rules that just happen to be in your favor.

I hope this all makes sense, and that it helps.

Jeff

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(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 8:49:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamonddreamlove
I would like to know if in fact accepting a collar negates the need to have hard limits.

Not unless you agree to this. Your Dom might be right; he might know you well enough by then to not harm you. However, if you feel you need to have a hard limit list in order to maintain healthy psychological boundaries, he shouldn't deny you that since he's committed to your welfare.

Master Fire

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 8:58:48 AM

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If you are no longer allowed hard limits upon collaring, would that mean that if he told you that he wanted you to do something that you were morally or ethically opposed to, criminal, or that you knew would be physically or emotionally damaging to you that you would do it?

If the answer is no then I would suggest that just because he says you can't have hard limits doesn't mean that you don't still have hard limits....whether they be verbalized, listed or not.

We ALL have limits...it is simply a consequence of the human condition.

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(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 9:58:26 AM

TemptingNviceSub

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I can very much relate to this question.And the very few times it has come up in a conversation I think about the many times here on the forums when a s/s has complained about their Dominant on an issue and so many have said "well when you entered into your relationship what limits did you agree upon"?...Yet when you find someone that interests you and then they almost "dare" you to drop said limits because it interferes with the trust factor you are building together then it leads one to wonder which way to turn.....Tempting

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 10:20:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamonddreamlove

I recently had a conversation with my Dom about trust and hard limits. His view is that if i trust Him enough to accept His collar (distant future) that i should trust Him enough to not have hard limits. Meaning that i would trust Him enough to know He would not harm me and that i would be safe in placing my trust in Him. I would like to know if in fact accepting a collar negates the need to have hard limits. I know in my heart He would not cross the boundaries i have set as hard limits but feel that they still need to be set and acknowledged as my hard limits, while His opinion is that if i have hard limits then i am saying i do not trust Him. I would appreciate hearing O/others opinions on this matter please and thank Y/you for Y/your help.

If I know a girl is arachnophobic, and trusts me to the point of having her eyes blinded and jaws stretched open with an extractor gag, it is wise and decorous of me to not drop a plump spider in her mouth.

I paint the above scenario to illustrate that while trust is so very vital for a girl to have in her Master, it does not in turn provide a license for him to discount her fears and weaknesses without considering the severity of repercussions to the health of her mind and body.

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 10:48:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
If I know a girl is arachnophobic, and trusts me to the point of having her eyes blinded and jaws stretched open with an extractor gag, it is wise and decorous of me to not drop a plump spider in her mouth.

I paint the above scenario to illustrate that while trust is so very vital for a girl to have in her Master, it does not in turn provide a license for him to discount her fears and weaknesses without considering the severity of repercussions to the health of her mind and body.

I am so glad you said this. So often the questions arise of, "What if he makes you kill someone??" and the like. My question in reply would be, why would I give myself to someone who would do that, or whom I could not trust with my safety? Personally speaking, my Master knows I can better serve him if not in jail.

Continuing on Amayos' theme, being quite frightened of spider critters myself, I trust that if Master were to prop my mouth open, he would not drop one in (really now, did you have to say plump? it adds to such a horrid visual!). I can attest to this, having been blindfolded and ordered to open my mouth...and await what came next. It could have been a critter, but I opened, trusting it was not.

When I gave myself over to my Master, it was without limits. Mind you, there were things in my mind that I still could not wrap my arms around ever doing, but I trusted that he would know if and when the time would ever come to address such things. I trust that he knows me well enough to know what I can and can not handle, and that he believes it is not in his own best interest to send me over the edge and damage the trust I have in him.

(in reply to amayos)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 10:50:13 AM

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From: Mayberry, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: diamonddreamlove

I recently had a conversation with my Dom about trust and hard limits. His view is that if i trust Him enough to accept His collar (distant future) that i should trust Him enough to not have hard limits. Meaning that i would trust Him enough to know He would not harm me and that i would be safe in placing my trust in Him. I would like to know if in fact accepting a collar negates the need to have hard limits. I know in my heart He would not cross the boundaries i have set as hard limits but feel that they still need to be set and acknowledged as my hard limits, while His opinion is that if i have hard limits then i am saying i do not trust Him. I would appreciate hearing O/others opinions on this matter please and thank Y/you for Y/your help.

If I know a girl is arachnophobic, and trusts me to the point of having her eyes blinded and jaws stretched open with an extractor gag, it is wise and decorous of me to not drop a plump spider in her mouth.

I paint the above scenario to illustrate that while trust is so very vital for a girl to have in her Master, it does not in turn provide a license for him to discount her fears and weaknesses without considering the severity of repercussions to the health of her mind and body.

Very well put Amayos. The last thing any relationship needs is the trust to be shattered.

LOKI

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 11:58:37 AM

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~fast reply~

Being that I am extremely arachnaphobic, the analogy of the plump spider being dropped in my mouth, made me shudder quite violently.

I just asked Master, (who knows very well how afraid I am of spiders) if I could trust him enough to never do that to me.    He looked at me with his evil grin and said, " hmmm you just gave me a great idea."     At this point I am panicking at the mere thought, and he finally said, " I 'probably' wouldn't do it."

I will never open my mouth blindfolded again!   lol.

~aurora~

(in reply to LokisBrat)

RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 12:01:33 PM

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lol aurora, Master often says "probably," too. Leaves a lot open, doesn't it?

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 1:03:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If you are no longer allowed hard limits upon collaring, would that mean that if he told you that he wanted you to do something that you were morally or ethically opposed to, criminal, or that you knew would be physically or emotionally damaging to you that you would do it?

If the answer is no then I would suggest that just because he says you can't have hard limits doesn't mean that you don't still have hard limits....whether they be verbalized, listed or not.

We ALL have limits...it is simply a consequence of the human condition.

Agreed. I can understand him saying "You will simply accept MY limits as your limits and have no limits independent of my own" but again, that has nothing to do with trust. And you still both HAVE limits- it's simply that you have accepted his as yours. This is one of the reasons you have to be sure you're with the right person before making the commitment.

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 1:07:58 PM

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no amount of trust would ever get me to break my hardest limit of all. sorry folks, trust only goes so far.

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 1:10:01 PM

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I think it's semantics, too. If he does not plan to do anything to you that would be a hard limit for you.....what's the difference?

For example, say 'scat' is your hard limit. If he has no intentions of bringing scat into play, will it make him feel better if you make a proclamation that 'scat' is no longer a hard limit for you? Seems a little silly to me.

To answer the question "does accepting a collar negate the need to have hard limits?".....I say, the need to give up hard limits negates the acceptance of the collar. But that's me.

< Message edited by windchymes -- 7/30/2006 1:13:51 PM >

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 1:17:24 PM

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i would trust that Master would push my limits gradually because once the steel has snapped shut your limits become his limits....but i do not think it is something that happens overnight....fireplay was something that scared the hell outta me that i KNOW i would have had to become used to/experience at one point in time down the road...knife play i love...but to be blindfolded during...ooooooooooooooo...that is a scary thought so yes trust is an immense factor.....but in degrees...is hopefully the way that the limits get pushed by a responsible Owner/Master

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 1:23:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

i would trust that Master would push my limits gradually because once the steel has snapped shut your limits become his limits....but i do not think it is something that happens overnight....fireplay was something that scared the hell outta me that i KNOW i would have had to become used to/experience at one point in time down the road...knife play i love...but to be blindfolded during...ooooooooooooooo...that is a scary thought so yes trust is an immense factor.....but in degrees...is hopefully the way that the limits get pushed by a responsible Owner/Master

When you're talking about "limits" based on things like fear or lack of awareness, then yes.

When you're talking about limits based on health and reality- then no. It doesn't matter how much you trust someone, it's not ok to say that you would have unprotected sex with someone infected with an STD. Whether you say "That's his limit for me, not my limit" or whatever- it's still a limit (something you won't do).

You don't "push" limits like that. Again, that's why I don't use the soft or hard limits ideal- something is a limit or it isn't.

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 1:27:34 PM

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I respect hard limits so much, that I refuse to get involved with someone that has ones I don't like. Trust has nothing to do with it.

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 2:20:00 PM

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i agree with you 100% on that example...there are just some things that wil always remain limits...that is why your first posting was sooooo good....'find compatible owner'

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

i would trust that Master would push my limits gradually because once the steel has snapped shut your limits become his limits....but i do not think it is something that happens overnight....fireplay was something that scared the hell outta me that i KNOW i would have had to become used to/experience at one point in time down the road...knife play i love...but to be blindfolded during...ooooooooooooooo...that is a scary thought so yes trust is an immense factor.....but in degrees...is hopefully the way that the limits get pushed by a responsible Owner/Master

When you're talking about "limits" based on things like fear or lack of awareness, then yes.

When you're talking about limits based on health and reality- then no. It doesn't matter how much you trust someone, it's not ok to say that you would have unprotected sex with someone infected with an STD. Whether you say "That's his limit for me, not my limit" or whatever- it's still a limit (something you won't do).

You don't "push" limits like that. Again, that's why I don't use the soft or hard limits ideal- something is a limit or it isn't.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: trust and hard limits - 7/30/2006 2:23:05 PM

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and what about respecting someone's hard limits? the lack of honor, courtesy, respect and trust has practiaclly disappeared (not going to place a location or other restrictions to this statement)

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