RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (Full Version)

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JessieMe -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 10:03:12 PM)

For me..it is never about the pain. It is about enduring what He desires, wishes, needs in order to be fulfilled in Himself. I do not like pain.. I am in no way shape fashion or form a pain slut. But I  know if I did not submit to His need to give this to me, I would feel like I have cheated or disappointed Him, so in THAT respect..even though I dont like it.. I do in fact NEED it.



Homestead -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 10:19:10 PM)

Those who have endured honest suffering for me have shown me the reality of thier submission.

It validated to me that they were really cedeing the control. Rather than just going along wih something they wanted, in any case.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 10:33:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Those who have endured honest suffering for me have shown me the reality of thier submission.

It validated to me that they were really cedeing the control. Rather than just going along wih something they wanted, in any case.

For me submission is as real when it is embraced with boundless joy, total indifference, or gritted teeth.

For me it is real when the authority of another is followed.



Homestead -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 10:36:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Those who have endured honest suffering for me have shown me the reality of thier submission.

It validated to me that they were really cedeing the control. Rather than just going along wih something they wanted, in any case.

For me submission is as real when it is embraced with boundless joy, total indifference, or gritted teeth.

For me it is real when the authority of another is followed.


I stated one of many ways.



tangldupinblue -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 10:41:08 PM)

they play into each other for me, its when the pain is so intense that my body wants to run that i am slammed by the thought of submitting to it for him.

blue



LASub4Real -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 11:07:46 PM)

I think it can be a bit confusing. I mean, I don't know any Masochists who would like to drop an anvil on their foot! Neither do I know of any who sleep on barbed wire. I don't know anyone who likes pain just for pain's sake. There might be a few out there, I just hae never met them. So then you have the idea of submission, but how can you "submit" to receiving a back massage? You might as well be submitting to a warm cup of cocoa with marshmallows. I think what works is when a sub is willing to endure some level of discomfort or pain in order to bring pleasure to the paingiver.

Conversely, I would worry about a Sadist who simply got pleasure from creating suffering. I'd half expect to see such a person buying a lot of animals for a little "fun." Yet I can completely understand the enjoyment, pride and excitement that a sadist might feel when a submissive trusts him/her enough to suffer for them.

Lasub



Noah -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/1/2006 11:35:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

masochism = enjoying pain



... and the

Metropolitan Museum of Art = Building with pictures inside.

No one can claim it isn't true, but ...

It is fine to attempt some simplification for the sake of clarity and yes there are times when the salt shaker can adequately represent the other guy in the story you're telling at the dinner table.

But let's not pretend that "Masochism = enjoying pain" does justice to the wide range of human experience which the word is quite properly used to point to.


The urge to "boil things down" is a peculiar trait of this culture. There are people who are comfortable, even content, to confront something complex and multi-layered and just encounter it as such without filling the kettle and lighting the stove.

I kinda like those people.

But of course I like you too, LA.

That a thing can't be said simply--or that a thing can't be said at all--is no grounds to reject what truth and beauty may be found in that thing.





Noah -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 12:47:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LASub4Real

I think it can be a bit confusing. I mean, I don't know any Masochists who would like to drop an anvil on their foot! Neither do I know of any who sleep on barbed wire. I don't know anyone who likes pain just for pain's sake. There might be a few out there, I just hae never met them. So then you have the idea of submission, but how can you "submit" to receiving a back massage? You might as well be submitting to a warm cup of cocoa with marshmallows. I think what works is when a sub is willing to endure some level of discomfort or pain in order to bring pleasure to the paingiver.

Conversely, I would worry about a Sadist who simply got pleasure from creating suffering. I'd half expect to see such a person buying a lot of animals for a little "fun." Yet I can completely understand the enjoyment, pride and excitement that a sadist might feel when a submissive trusts him/her enough to suffer for them.

Lasub


Well there are plenty of masochists who just flat dig pain, period. I can't cite any anvil instances but I could regale you with almost comparable ones.

Pain is interesting.

For some people it is intersting to feel, for others it is interesting to administer.

You can do things with it, and I'm not talking about human destruction nor about coercion. You can do things with pain and a human body as you can do things with canvas and paint. As you can do with a musical instrument and your fingers or your breath.

There are numerous other levels at which pain and suffering can be appreciated before we come to that lovely paradox of the "not really what you'd usually call masochistic" person enduring pain not qua pain but qua an elegant and unmistakeable instance of submission.


As for: "Conversely, I would worry about a Sadist who simply got pleasure from creating suffering." This just boggles my mind at first but then I think I see how it all shakes out for you. Lemme try to say it and you can tell me if this seems anywhere near right.

You haven't had occasion to meet anyone who was the plainest and simplest sort of anvil-dropping masochist, and you yourself are a masochist of the sort who gets his fulfillment from pain indirectly, as someone put it above.

This being the case it might be fair to guess that you also just haven't gotten to know yet any sadists who don't wrap their talk about enjoying the creation of suffering up in pretty talk about enjoying ancilliary events and the epi-phenomena, as it were, and dealing in actual pain only "for the growth of the masochist" or some such thing.

And I'll bet a lot of sadists who describe themselves that way are telling the truth as they see it. The truth as it is.

Me, I like to tap into life at all sorts of levels. I appreciate the complxities and parodoxes of kink. But before, during and after all that, I enjoy giving pain (to consenting adult partners.) I like to create suffering (in consenting adult partners.)

I just love the way a whole stratum of masochists start yelling: "Run away, run away, this sadist actually likes to hurt people," when they chance to encounter my view. They seem to say: " It is fine to hurt people and to enjoy hurting people to the point of orgasming all over your new garbadine trousers as long as, you--you know--you don't actually like ... you know, enjoy actually ... um, well ... hurting ... um ... people... which anyone can see is just sick or something."

In response to your stated concern--and you aren't the first--
I don't buy animals (or people) to hurt just to pass the time of day or get my rocks off. I do live in the country and raise--and kill--some of my own meat.

I killed and butchered my (and my girlfriend's) dinner last week. It wasn't a squicky business, it wasn't teary and sentimental because as I raised this animal from a day old I knew what I was doing. I knew this in a way that all human beings presumably once appreciated but which seems to have been whitewashed by slaughterhouses and supermarkets.

Anyway, aside from a very minor appreciation for a piece of work accomplished, I didn't take any pleasure in the event. In particular I didn't take pleasure in the animal's pain or destruction--though I sure enjoyed dinner.

And what if I had? The animal was going to die that afternoon either way.

But back to your issue.

Please tell. Does my appraisal of where you might be coming from hold any water at all or do you think I'm way off base?



cuddleheart50 -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 3:06:20 AM)

....it seems she gets soaking wet because she is being dominated and submissive. 


Thats it in a nutshell for me.  [:D]



marieToo -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 6:30:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerTexasBoss

A couple of weeks ago I posted a message about my sub and how she was having trouble embracing the fact that she liked pain.  Most of the response centered on talking with her and getting her in contact with other subs.

As we have continued to talk, it is seeming to emerge that what is REALLY turning her on is not the pain...but the act of submission itself.  she doesn't get soaking wet because she enjoys the whipping or hot wax....she doesn't enjoy it....it seems she gets soaking wet because she is being dominated and submissive. 

Are there other subs on this board that that is true for....it's not the pain or the enjoyment of the activity, but the submission and domination that turns you on.  Perhaps you could careless about the bondage, whippings, etc....it's the sheer act of submission that does it for you??

If any of you could shed light on this or share your thoughts I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
HerTexasBoss



For me, its the act of submission, not the pain per se.  However, for some sick and twisted reason, if there is no suffering involved, the submission has almost no emotional value for me.  If someone tells me he's not a sadist, the conversation is over.



subexec -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 9:22:51 AM)

hi. i would say personally although i occasionally need the "release" from a good pain session, the real deep down gratification and subspace for me comes when it clicks in my head during a session that the Dom is enjoying this, doing what he wants to me, and i must suffer for him.    more of the mental gratification.

like you stated, the dripping wax is not arousing me, it's the knowledge i'm enduring it for someone.

now nipple play might be different...might be direct enjoyment there, not sure. lol.




MmakeMme -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 11:58:48 AM)

Touching on something Noah said "Pain is interesting. For some it is interesting to feel." I'm going to stop the quote there, although I know he means something entirely different from what I'm going to point out.

Coming from where I have emotionally, physically, and mentally, it ~ is ~ interesting to feel (as opposed to being numb). Part of me views the pain my Dom inflicts on me as a way to FEEL, a way to connect, a way for him to tell me that I am not invisible, and a way for me to understand that.



subexec -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 12:28:22 PM)

"Part of me views the pain my Dom inflicts on me as a way to FEEL, a way to connect, a way for him to tell me that I am not invisible, and a way for me to understand that."

That was beautifully stated. understood completely...i think we fell dominance as love. 



MmakeMme -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 1:48:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subexec

"Part of me views the pain my Dom inflicts on me as a way to FEEL, a way to connect, a way for him to tell me that I am not invisible, and a way for me to understand that."

That was beautifully stated. understood completely...i think we fell dominance as love. 


~ warm smile ~ Thank you. Sometimes it is difficult to know if one is alone in the middle of the ocean in a rubber life raft or on board a cruise ship where there are many to share the ride. It is good to be validated.



kyraofMists -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 3:37:08 PM)

For me it is a combination of both; there are certain sensations that just get me off and then there are others where my whole focus is just enduring it for his pleasure.  I am a masochist, but not all pains are created equal.  There are some that are just pure pleasure for me and then others that are just pain.  However, even with those sensations that are pleasure, my Lord can push you right to the limits of what you can endure.  He takes a sensation that you enjoy and then pushes you to the edge of what is pleasurable and then pushes past it till it is just pain and you are enduring it for his pleasure.  He does this with the things we enjoy so that he can push harder and longer.  One of my favorite forms of play is abrasion play; a few months ago he did an intense abrasion scene on me.  My back was raw and seeping blood when he was done.  The next morning he continued the play, just lightly touching my back, feather light touches, and I was in tears and begging within minutes.
 
Knight's kyra



angielouwhos -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 3:55:35 PM)

I'm a slave/sub but not very masochistic at all. I can play with some of those things but I have seen so many more masochistic people than me out there, which is why when evaluating potential owners I have always paused when they describe their sadism desires :)




sublizzie -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 4:35:53 PM)

For me it's about the submission. I've said frequently "I'll endure to please". That's it for me in a nutshell. I will endure the pain to please the Dom/me. I can be just as fulfilled in my submission by getting someone a bottle of ice water or filling their plate with food. I *like* serving, which sometimes comes with pain. But it's the serving, the submission, the letting go of control that really gets to me.



Kashan -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 5:19:03 PM)

Oooooo, I love this. I get that I'm a freak and so glad there are others out there. I actually like the pain becasue I can feel it more than the pets. I love gentle pets, don't get me wrong, but I can really feel the pain in my heart and in my head so much more. It's more believable to me. Perhaps becasue I grew up in an abusive household, perhaps it's just how I'm wired. But I know many who feel more loved when limits are set and enforced and pushed.  It's almost like "I love you damnit!" So whether I'm told I'm loved or not, the pain is loving to me, whther the Master loves me or not, it is felt as that I am loved.



lilsubl -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 6:45:53 PM)

thank you for the things that you've said about masochists & sadists...for me, the pain is most of the pleasure...i enjoy the sensations the pain creates...i enjoy being pushed past what i thought i could take...sometimes, He creates more pain that i think i can take, but i just go to another level & i love it...it's the sensations of the moment which i enjoy...

this thread started a dialogue between Master & myself...He is not a sadist, but i'm fairly certain i'm a masochist...He inflicts pain on me, not necessarily for His primary pleasure, but because He enjoys the dominance & my reaction to it...He likes it when i beg for more, because He is the One who decides if i will receive more pain or not...He begins the pain & He ends it...in that way, i submit to Him...i told Him it felt a little strange to have a Master doing something for His slave because she enjoys it, but He says W/we both get something out of it, so where's the problem??



babysburnin -> RE: Is it the Pain or the Act of Submission??? (8/2/2006 7:51:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerTexasBoss

As we have continued to talk, it is seeming to emerge that what is REALLY turning her on is not the pain...but the act of submission itself.  she doesn't get soaking wet because she enjoys the whipping or hot wax....she doesn't enjoy it....it seems she gets soaking wet because she is being dominated and submissive. 



I was like that at first...just the submission was the turn on - and it still is.  But, now I find myself craving my most dreaded impliment of punishment (no, I take that back, my SECOND least favorite - number one still hurts, hurts, hurts...)  But, for me, it is all intertwined - and it's changing over time.  I must say, being HIS sub (emotionally) is more of a turn on than the physical aspect of it.



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