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Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 12:35:41 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I always find it fascinating to read what others refer to as subspace and subdrop.

For me, I refer to subspace as that point at which I take flight during a scene and the flight itself. During this time I am not able to communicate, I am not in touch with reality, I can not control my movements. I am in la la land, drooling on myself, lost in a world of colored mist and sensation, muscles convulsing and twitching uncontrollably. I come back into reality in bits and pieces slowly and for a few hours after I am riding the euphoria of that endorphin high.

I don't refer to subspace as the submissive feelings and emotions that are brought on by a look or a touch from a Dominant. I don't refer to subspace as the overly submissive feelings that I may have for a few days after a scene until my drop kicks in.

Subdrop for me is the physical and mental crash that takes place, for me in about 48 to 72 hours after a scene. It is the time that I feel like I have a really bad case of the flu. I run a fever, have body aches, a terrible headache and am usually nauseous. I laugh one minute and cry the next.

I don't refer to subdrop as the melancholy feelings triggered by seperation from a Dominant.

For me, subspace and subdrop both have physical roots and catalysts. I was just reading on the submissive board about "constant subspace" where someone is talking about being in subspace for weeks. In the way that I view subspace, this would be impossible. The effects of endorphins simply do not last that long. I have certainly been taken repeatedly into subspace over a period of time...but to remain in it for weeks....even 4 days after play....constantly, even at work? I don't understand this view of it because when I am in what I think of as subspace....I couldn't drive a car...or cook a meal....or work...type a post on a message board...or most likely even be responsible for wiping my own ass. I can understand being preoccupied with your submission for that period of time...lost in a sea of submissive feelings and not being able to concentrate and focus on other things...but to me that is much different than subspace. 

So the question is....when you refer to subspace..or subdrop...what exactly are you referring to and what all do you think those terms encompass?  

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/1/2006 12:36:41 PM >

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:12:12 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		My view is much as yours is, mistoferin. Although I have to say I probably don't have near as much ezsperience with it, I have experienced both, I am pretty sure.

- Susan

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:21:35 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		I've always seen subspace and drop as the same sort of thing that you're refering to Erin in the OP.  The physical high from endorphins, seratonin, and adrenalin - and the physical come down from that high.
 
I've never "got it" when people talk about some sort of mental/emotional state induced by something Other than the biochem high.  I have, however, often equated their sense of "Drop" to be something similar to Withdrawl Symptoms in a junkie without a lot of the obvious physical symptoms.  (Julia couldn't figure out why I would associate a desire to constantly seek subspace to the same sort of attitude - this is a large part of the reason why.)

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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:26:58 PM   
SexyRed


Posts: 529
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline 		It is two different things to me; subspace is when I am in the "zone" and I am all feelings during a scene.

After the scene is over, I still feel some endorphins, and they can last about a day at most.

Subdrop for me makes me feel sad and depressed, since the person I play with is someone I experience great intensity with, but cannot really be with on a daily basis. So, subdrop, is akin to just being sad about not being able to be with someone you really care about, especially since such intense feelings generated during a scene should be accompanied by caring emotions. At least for me, but I choose to see that particular person because right now, he is the only one available to get me to subspace.

Hope that all makes sense without making me sound a bit confused. I am very clear about what is going on.

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:39:48 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
I've never "got it" when people talk about some sort of mental/emotional state induced by something Other than the biochem high.  I have, however, often equated their sense of "Drop" to be something similar to Withdrawl Symptoms in a junkie without a lot of the obvious physical symptoms.  (Julia couldn't figure out why I would associate a desire to constantly seek subspace to the same sort of attitude - this is a large part of the reason why.)


Yes, I did see that post and I could understand where both of you were coming from. While it is similar in some regards it is also very different. Addicts seek out highs because of an interruption in their natural chemical process....while subspace and subdrop are natural chemical processes.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:42:58 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed
Subdrop for me makes me feel sad and depressed, since the person I play with is someone I experience great intensity with, but cannot really be with on a daily basis. So, subdrop, is akin to just being sad about not being able to be with someone you really care about, especially since such intense feelings generated during a scene should be accompanied by caring emotions.


I refer to this differently as this is not how I experience subdrop. This is something that I would refer to for myself more along the lines of seperation anxiety or loneliness. So then do you, or have you ever experienced subdrop in the physical sense that I described? And if so....do you see them as different?

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/1/2006 1:51:04 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:44:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
So the question is....when you refer to subspace..or subdrop...what exactly are you referring to and what all do you think those terms encompass?  

For me subspace is a state of alternate consciousness.  There are several "states" in which I go which could all be classified as "subspace."  I also go into them through adrenaline rushes and/or an intense energy connection.  It doesn't have to be during a scene.

So...I go with broad and general- state of alternate consciousness.

Subdrop for me is an intense drop in emotional and physical wellbeing as the aftermath of an intense submissive experience.  While I think the physical component is more prevalent, there is an emotional component which plays into things as well.

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 1:49:59 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
For me subspace is a state of alternate consciousness.  There are several "states" in which I go which could all be classified as "subspace."  I also go into them through adrenaline rushes and/or an intense energy connection.  It doesn't have to be during a scene.


LA, can you elaborate. Are we talking about "OOBE"s or submissive fuzzies, sub/slave heat? Are they different than what you experience from adrenaline or endorphins? What would be an example of triggers/effects?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 2:59:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Are we talking about "OOBE"s or submissive fuzzies, sub/slave heat?

The only insightful description I've had of my experience of subspace is "Like a black marble bouncing around the darkest cave."

I'm there, but there's nothing "there" to be there.

I've never had an OOBE or frenzy during a subspace- although I know plenty of subs who say they have.

quote:

Are they different than what you experience from adrenaline or endorphins? What would be an example of triggers/effects?

I've never had an endorphin high.  Sometimes my adrenaline high is what takes me there (ex post facto though).  For me the trigger is intense connection in a sublime submissive state.  I've gotten into that space just from having my hair brushed.

So anything that causes that "intense connection in a sublime submissive state" is what will get me into the "altered state of consciousness that I call subspace."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 3:05:14 PM   
mistoferin


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Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks LA. I do understand the feeling you describe. I don't personally relate that to what for me is subspace...but I have experienced it. I don't really have a term for the feeling as it's hard to verbalize...you though, as usual, did particularly well..

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 3:14:40 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Hi erin
 
Such a brilliant topic for me right now.  I hit subspace a few times over the weekend just past and right now - I can feel the first signs of the impending 'drop'.
 
And it's killing me.(ok so thats over exaggerating, but its how one feels and can feel)
 
I am missing all those experiences I had over the last weekend.  I miss the colours and the noise and the fun and the friendships and companionships that were formed.  I miss the person I was with incredibly and although he is 'there' for me he isn't right 'here' physically (distance and work makes that impossible at the moment)  so I am kind of coping on my own with it(physically).  Its a huge emotional crash... and one I have been expecting.  I am snappy and tired - tearful with sudden highs of giggles and euphoric sensations.  My synaesthesia is hightened which doesn't help either.
 
I think it is good that I 'know' myself well enough to know this was going to happen... and prepared myself, and my family for the impact it can have.  Even though I am submissive, doesn't remove the responsibility I have for my own well being and the well being of my family and those closest to me.
 
I set alarms on my mobile to remind me to intake fluid regularly... I made sure the house has alot of fruit and fresh veg that I can snack on and balance my carbs with proteins.  This all helps with the chemicals in my body.
 
And I have been talking to a couple of good friends.  And it is a good idea(for me anyway) to have a set idea on what I will be doing.  Like tasks.  Making sure I time things right so I dont have too much time to 'think'.  Going to a munch tomorrow... being with people I love.
 
It all helps.
 
Peace and Rapture
 


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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 3:21:32 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Hugs dark...and this too shall pass ok?

Want me to start a "Be nice to dark for the next two days" post?

Yes, knowing yourself, knowing it's coming...and knowing what helps and planning for it are all good ways of getting through it. Hope it's a light one for ya.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 3:27:35 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
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From: UK
Status: offline
*grins to erin*
Lots of hugs will do... don't worry about a special post...lol
 
I just need to feel the lurveeeee....
 
Peace and Rapture


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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 3:48:55 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		i think pretty close to what mistoferin says, i recognise the states triggered by body chemicals as different from the wellbeing states that sometimes overlap.

What most call sub-space, the "sensory high" and detachment from pain, or hyperfocusing on sensation and so on, i get from the chemicals of rapidly ramped up sensation.   i can get that from a footrub, calf stroking, or getting my back scratched with a hairbrush, as well as the usual routes of flogging and whipping.

But i can also get this total well-being sense that floats me..  from sitting in for a lesson, kneeling or serving in a lifestyle-public setting, getting my calves stroked, hairbrushing, or back-brushing.  When i feel tended to, watched over and owned, or allowed to serve and know i'm being particularly pleasing, i get that the floaties. 

i also experience the chem-drop some 30 hours after a physical scene that produced #1 above, but it isn't always negative.  For me, it's much like alcohol use or a bout of PMS, whatever i'm feeling about the scene will be exaggerated or enhanced by the change in chemistry.  If i'm feeling good, hell, no, i feel GREAT. If something was amiss, well.. it's surely because i am fat, bloated, performed badly, or something. i'll go guilt-tripping over nothing.  (no, i'm not particularly bi-polar, lol.)

i do have a separation response as well, which can be almost completely overcome by the right levels of ongoing aftercare, and i do mean ONgoing.  Like staying tightly and positivly connected for 10 days or so. i think this is something a lot of people call sub-drop, and it's really not part of the body chemistry response, but in conjunction with it, can be confused with classic drop.

So.. for me, i live for the Floaties.  case #1, the purely physical response to endorphins, i could live forever without it. but i hope i don't have to.

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 4:49:59 PM   
beenwhipped


Posts: 191
Joined: 5/14/2006
Status: offline 		i recently started a thread myself on subspace http://www.collarchat.com/m_505535/tm.htm someone posted there more links to other threads.

My personal views, but to understand i think i need to explain what i get from S/m. I am fairly new to the experience. I am not in a Ds relationship, and not sure if i can. My pleasure from being flogged, whipped, caned i believe come streight from the endorphine, and i do not associate it with sex. i am not sure where others are on this.

I quite often experince similar mindsets to subspace, but rarely as intence as when i am being flogged, i wonder if i have an abnormaly high production of endorphines. usualy an endorphine rush will come from stress, anger, excitement etc. the flight has only came from being whipped, bungee, and real danger. preferences in that order.

My experince in subspace itself, i hate the word subspace i think that it doesnt explain my state of mind fully, i shake uncontrollably. i cannot speak, i become aware of only myself, my dom/me and i feel almost empathic to his/her state of mind. Time is lost, my last trip into subspace lasted almost 2 hours, i thought of it as 15-20 min. and the most intense part is forgetting how to breathe. my dom had to stop and remind me to breathe several times during the scene.

I love to take the trip to subspace and i feel myself looking for it while scening. for the most part i have few concerns with subspace, all of my scenes have been in public under the watchful eye of a DM and often a crowd, do i do not feel a chance of intentional harm, but once i enter that wonderful state of mind, things that scare me are the inablity to control my own breathing and the fact that i have little limits. I was sevearly bruised my last trip to subspace, and the scene was stopped by the dom. i would have continued for another 2 hours had he let me. Once i was tetering on the edge of subspace, and that nights Domme struck across a vertebre that i have broken. given a few minutes i may not have even felt it. knowing that SCARES me.

The odd thing is that i have not experienced subdrop as it is described here. but then i have never felt the DTs on any drug that i have taken, both legal and not so legal.

wow that got a little long winded. i think that organizing my thoughts make me understand things a little better and this subject is no different. each time i post a long message like this i know where i am coming from a little better.

thanks for putting up with my long ass post
james


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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 5:50:45 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beenwhipped
Once i was tetering on the edge of subspace, and that nights Domme struck across a vertebre that i have broken. given a few minutes i may not have even felt it. knowing that SCARES me.


I too have broken my back. When I am scening with someone for the first time I sometimes have them mark that vertebrae with a magic marker. That way it is a very visual "no strike" zone.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to beenwhipped)
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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 6:08:56 PM   
beenwhipped


Posts: 191
Joined: 5/14/2006
Status: offline 		i usualy make them touch the location before i am ever restrained. the Domme that hit my back had a bit of an aditude and in retrospect, even without considering the mistrike, i should have never agreed to be strapped to the cross

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 7:53:17 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Subspace - what I posted in a different thread: 
Sometimes I am floaty.  Sometimes spacy or high, sometimes I soar like a kite, sometimes I venture deep within myself, to my very core.  Sometimes it makes me so joyous I can't stop laughing.  Sometimes it is so intense I can't stop crying.
To add to that...similar to what LA descibed, in a place that really isn't a place.  It is often dark. It is often beautiful.  I am totally consumed.  If pushed to talk, I slur.  I doubt I could function in doing anything else during this time.  I am too far in la la land.

Subdrop:  What I used to experience as subdrop was the day or so after an intense session, and I would feel very low, very quiet and introspective, and often times weepy.  I was not very rational during this time so it was difficult for Master to have a meaningful conversation with me because I could not translate my emotions to words.  We saw this as my "processing" time, where I was best left alone.  I don't have this so much anymore, if at all.  The last few times he took  me to extremes, in fact, I just felt really peaceful and glad.  There was no "drop," there was no "processing."  Just happiness.  So I can't really say I experience any sort of drop at all anymore.  Thankfully so.

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 8:06:29 PM   
cheshireboy


Posts: 217
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline 		i recently experienced both...for the first time...i have always been mentally aware of everything and in a scene i found myself focused purely on the act and not looking at it like a movie...and that all i knew is i wanted to endure the scene and have it go for ever....subspace....
 
about 3 days later...after a period of no intense physical ownership...i found myself waking up worthless, looking around and seeing all the small things that i could have done better and feeling like all i wanted to do was to just sleep and stay curled in bed....sub drop....
 
getting out of it only took a conversation...but wasn't fun at all.
 
cheshire

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RE: Different views of subspace and subdrop - 8/1/2006 8:17:29 PM   
bigdaninwi


Posts: 35
Joined: 5/31/2005
Status: offline 		As a Dominate, I experience Dom Drop...After great scenes, I do get headaches and am out of sorts for a day or two.  So I don't believe this is reserved for submissives.

Bigdan

(in reply to cheshireboy)
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