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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/2/2006 12:30:08 PM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

God may think it' all pretty amusing.

- Susan 


I think you're right....Who wouldn't?........It IS amusing.....You're omnipotent, you create humanity, with built in fallibility, then sit back and watch them fuck-up with resounding success.  And why not?.........Better than a Sunday morning listening to endless streams of whinges and beseeching and prayers from the *worthy*.............LOL

agirl

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/2/2006 1:44:07 PM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

All religions:  Christianity (Catholics, Anglicans, Evangelical, Jehovah's Witness, Latter Day Saints, Orthodox, Pentecostal) Islam (Sunni and Shiite), Judaism (Conservative, Reform, Orthodox, Reconstructionist), Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Druidism, Atheism, Unitarianism, Church of the flying spaghetti monster, Tibetan Monkism, All Hail Benji, and many more.

While I am the first to admit that science has a LOT of loopholes in it, it is the best theory we have.  I think they have the basics down well enough that we can teach it, and let people learn about God creating the earth in Church, whichever one they may attend.


Hmmm, benji you are right, i should have clarified, school should teach science and the parents should explain religion.

My girls were all raised as Druids the same as i was but we also explored and discussed all religions. When my oldest expressed an interest in Christianity i took her to both a Catholic and Baptist church. My youngest is half Cherokee and when she expressed an interest in her native people's religion i located and joined the local combined tribe, today she is a full fledged medicine woman in her own right and still practices druidry as well. Her people call her nupa wiyanela phejta or two spirit medicine woman.

But i am one of those people who still believe parents are responsible for educating their own offspring. 

If it makes you feel better i can teach them about the Church Of the Pup, my daughter who is a switch might be interested in services.



< Message edited by twicehappy -- 8/2/2006 1:45:14 PM >


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/2/2006 6:09:23 PM   
TopCurious0


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amastermind

I don't know the details of the debate in Kansas but I do know this:  Evolution is just a theory, and not a very good one at that.  On the other hand, Creationism isn't a theory at all. 

"Just a theory" does not mean much. So is gravity, or newton't laws of motion (which are not actually correct, but are a really good aproximation for most situations you need to deal with). As for how good it is, it is consistant with a large amount of data collected after it was conceaived, and it has never been contradicted, so it is reasonably strong, and useful in a number of fields in biology
quote:


I am sure anyone who has followed the debate has heard all the arguments but what bring it home to me are the following obervations:

The differences between breeds of dogs that have been bred for hundreds of years, disappear with a very small number of generations when the dogs are allowed to breed freely.  Thus, nature seems to work against forming new species.

Yes, dogs are the same species.  However, artificial breeding is not nessisarily a good model of speciaization via natural selection.  Major diffenences in species do tend to be found in disconnected geographic areas.
quote:


There is no fossil evidence of transitory animals in between two different species that supposedly originated from the same one. 

I'm not an expert of the fossil record.
quote:


Random mutation, the proposed mechanism for creating species, doesn't seem very likely.  For one thing, there really isn't enough time for the process to work. Even a few billion years is not enough time for enough favorabe mutations to have occured.   Furthermore, most mutations are harmful, not beneficial.  When babies in Iraq were born with 6 fingers and enlarged heads due to their exposure to radiation from the war, how many parent said "Great news!  We have now helped the evolutionary process.?" 

So it feels too hard? I find people can't imagine large numbers well.  Its not just billions of years, but thousands and millions and billions of plants and animals all alive and breeding at the same time.

And where is the radiation in Iraq?  Yes, many mutations are harmful, that's where natural selection kicks in, and the harmful ones tend to not lead to adult whatevers that have children.
quote:


Creationism, the "theory" that God created the world in six days isn't a theory at all.  No more than a theory that the earth circles the sun because God willed that.

So in fact there are things that we just don't understand very well and maybe can never understand.  I hope the Kansas School Board as well as all those involved in the debate recognize this.

There are lots of things we have not figured out yet, but when we have a widely accepted working model, we still teach that. Otherwise no gravity in school.

The people who are questioning evolution, and only evolution have an agenda.

Teaching what is a theory and standards of scientific proof and evidance, and critical honest inquery is an important part of science education, but it should not be tied to any particular scientific model.
quote:


Finally, there is no conflict between science and religion.  They answer two different questions.  Religion answers the question "Who?" whereas science answers the question "How?" 

I would more say that religion trys to answer "why" and often that answer is a "who".



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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/2/2006 6:25:04 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Religion - shaping your understanding of the world to match a preconceived set of ideas.

Science - shaping your understanding of the world based upon observations and then testing those observations.

Evolution is just the best theory at the moment but with the understanding it may be wrong and setting form the +ve and -ve arguments for its validity.
Creationism is the certainty that you know the answer and can not be wrong linked to only those arguments that support the "correct" answer. 

One is openminded the other is close minded. People should have an incite to both but not have to believe either.....  

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/3/2006 3:36:32 PM   
LadyEllen


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What I find most amazing about the US is that it is up there at the leading edge of scientific techniques and development - and yet so much of it seems locked into a worldview that the rest of us abandoned as flawed centuries ago on the grounds of what we came to realise as a result of applying scientific techniques and development was a more adequate worldview.

I have no objection to people believing in the biblical creation, nor to teaching it as part of religious studies in schools. However, to neglect to teach evolution alongside it in a biology class is to do a great disservice to children. Education is about providing information to prepare children for the world and to enable them as adults to use their reasoning to make their way through the world. It is not there for the purpose of divulging one sided propaganda. If education fulfils its purpose then those who receive it will be more than able to make their own judgements when they are adults.

The only reason I can perceive for evolution to be banned from the curriculum is the fear of christians that their entire religion will be undermined should children learn about Darwin and his theories and how evidence would seem to support him and them. Ignoring the somewhat ridiculous "satanic anticipation" theory, that satan planted dinosaur bones - in God's creation at that - to specifically mislead man into evil, or that fossils of dinosaurs etc are the remains of satanic beasts destroyed by God in the Flood (or some other divine intervention),  there is more than enough established evidence that evolution is more than likely right.

This fear that I propose as an explanation in relation to the banning of evolution is of exactly the same nature as that provoked by Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code", which was widely perceived by christians as threatening their entire religion. Even if we suppose that evolution is as false as this book is fictional, such fear is entirely unfounded  -and not exactly becoming of the faithful either!

The thing is, that whilst evolution will not change one's life for the better, just as the "Da Vinci Code" will not, it is fairly well established that christianity can. That ability doesnt necessarily mean that everything in the bible has to be taken as literally true either, and nor does it rely on such comprehensive belief for its effect. After all, christianity is christianity - not churchianity or bibleanity, and takes effect from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus as Christ, not in belief that the creation is literally true. I cannot help but think that this evolution debate misses this important point - faith in Christ and the resultant efficacy of that faith on a person, and the evidence of evolution are not incompatible.

I guess the issue really only arises if christians are taking the OT as being such a vital part of faith in Jesus that salvation is impossible without it? However this is to misunderstand the point of the OT as a means of establishing Jesus as legitimate saviour by reference to non-christian writings specifically selected to establish that legitimacy, primarily for the purpose of converting people for whom such legitimacy is important. However, surely the main proof of such legitimacy for those who are christian or become christian is not who begat who and so on, but the effect of salvation that arises as a result of honest repentance before God and faith in the sacrifice of Jesus in atonement in their place?

And all that from someone for whom the church (in the widest sense) and the bible are hardly important! (Jesus on the other hand I believe to have been one of the greatest!).
E

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/3/2006 5:23:49 PM   
Kedikat


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There are a lot more churches than there are schools. Don't waste schools space and time teaching religious pseudo science. Anyone can go to church and hear the alternate " theory ".
Hey....why not stop installing brakes in cars? Pray you will stop in time. Classes in proper emergency prayer at the mechanics shop.
We can institute bans on all sorts of seafood. Just because the evil godless scientists invented refrigeration is no reason to stop believing it is a sin to eat a lot of it.

There is science and fact. There is belief. The two should seldom share the same space at the same time.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:12:26 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

There are a lot more churches than there are schools. Don't waste schools space and time teaching religious pseudo science. Anyone can go to church and hear the alternate " theory ".
Hey....why not stop installing brakes in cars? Pray you will stop in time. Classes in proper emergency prayer at the mechanics shop.
We can institute bans on all sorts of seafood. Just because the evil godless scientists invented refrigeration is no reason to stop believing it is a sin to eat a lot of it.

There is science and fact. There is belief. The two should seldom share the same space at the same time.


There are more swimming pools and oceans - but I wouldnt advocate not teaching children to swim just because of that reason.
 
Its not about teaching - its about giving people the choice and the knowledge to choose for themself.
Peace and Rapture


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 7:28:17 PM   
MasDom


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I am a proude member of the de evolutionary soceity.
The Darwin people just love us!

  One more beer and I finally make primal.....

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:18:02 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Science, science, and more science.

So we're learing and figuring out more on how God does it. Does that make him less of a god or a divine creator?

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:23:57 PM   
WhiplashGirlChld


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quote:

There are more swimming pools and oceans - but I wouldnt advocate not teaching children to swim just because of that reason.

Its not about teaching - its about giving people the choice and the knowledge to choose for themself.
Peace and Rapture
  The problem is that Creationism and Intelligent Design are NOT science.  Taught as relgious philosophies in a social studies or hummanities class, hardly any academic would have an issue.  What should be taught in science classes is science.  If we had all mastered the concepts of science to begin with, this would hardly be a debate.  That there are so many grown adults that seem not to understand this point, is proof that the concepts have already been too dilluted.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:34:49 PM   
SirKenin


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Evolution is not a science, it is a theory.  Just the same as Creationism (which I do not buy either).  What schools need is a mix between the two, a centrist point of view.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:40:08 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
Evolution is not a science, it is a theory.  Just the same as Creationism (which I do not buy either).  What schools need is a mix between the two, a centrist point of view.


If you are proposing a mix of religion and science, please do not forget that we need to consider *all* Creation myths.  It is not fair to teach that of just one culture, since many cultures and ethnicities are represented in America.  This would include the Tlingit teachings about the world being formed in the mouth of a giant salmon, and the African tribal stories about man being created from crocodile blood and hippo semen.  Also the earth rests on the back of a giant turtle dragon.  Every single one of these creation stories has exactly the same relevance to science.

Or we could just leave science in the science classroom and religion in civics or history class.  Tends to make a lot more sense that way.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 8/4/2006 8:44:14 PM >

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:44:46 PM   
SirKenin


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Or we could just use our brains and amalgamate the theories that can actually coexist with what we have already observed and actually have a chance at working.

We do not always have to be idiots about it.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 8:57:22 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Evolution is not a science, it is a theory.  Just the same as Creationism (which I do not buy either).  What schools need is a mix between the two, a centrist point of view.


We have more proof in evolution. In just this life time, we've watched all sorts of species either evolve or die to live in current environments. We've dug up fossels of extinct plants and animals alike that didn't cut the mustard in the long run. Evolution is there.

Anyhow, science itself are ideas on theory. Evolution is a science. 
Creationism however is still just an idea/belief that has yet to step up to the plate as a theory. Most stories of Gods and Devine Spirits creating the world originated by people who sought after the explanaiton of how did we get here.

In forth grade I remember our teacher telling us how the ancient greek society used the Gods as a way to explain there existance. My question was "Is that way we have a god?"    

< Message edited by FangsNfeet -- 8/4/2006 8:58:14 PM >


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 9:26:53 PM   
SirKenin


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We have proof of Creation too, if we do not take it to be a literal six days.  Either way you have no point.

Evolution is a theory, that is all.  Please note that I am not stating My beliefs, I am only stating the facts.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 9:27:50 PM   
Najakcharmer


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An essay I found on Intelligent Design:

The U.S. is afflicted with a species of idiot who have decided that thinking interferes with bible-thumping and must therefore be banned. To be more specific, they've decided that biological evolution is directly opposed to their narrow-minded reading of the Abrahamic creation myths and is therefore a great evil to be fought.

(John Calvert, managing director of the Intelligent Design Network: "Evolution demolishes any rational basis for theistic belief." Phillip Johnson, founder of the ID movement: "Liberal [accepting evolution] Christians are worse than atheists because they hide their naturalism behind a veneer of religion." Gee, I've never heard Pope Pius XII's religion called a "veneer" before. I don't often hear John Paul II called "liberal", either.)

Now, the hard-core delusionals can't be helped except with sufficient doses of Haldol, but they've managed to generate enough double-talk to confuse some more sane people. This has led to an impressive outpouring of biology blogs, but there are a few points that aren't being refuted effectively. And letting your opponent control the language you're arguing with is a recipe for disaster.

First of all, there's the argument that "There's a controversy. Teach the controversy." There's a POLITICAL controversy. And it might be a perfectly suitable subject for civics class. There's no SCIENTIFIC controversy, and nothing to teach in science class.

Which leads to the major point: what is science? How is my faith in science different from a religious faith? How can I say that Intelligent Design is unscientific? And I really think the evolution advocates are failing to answer these clearly.

The answer, you see, is simple, and doesn't rely on circular arguments about "scientists" or "scientific method". The answer is:

Science is making correct predictions.

Some predictions are accurate to umpteen decimal places. We call these "hard sciences", of which physics is the leading example. Some are fairly fuzzy relationships (A tends to cause B). We call these "soft sciences".

Science is made up of *theories*. ("Conjecture" and "Hypothesis" are both just different words for the same thing. There are people who will explain the difference between scarlet, vermillion, and crimson, but basically there's all just red.)

The more *frequently* and *specifically* a theory makes predictions, the more *useful* it is (assuming it's right). To test a scientific theory is to test its predictions. Illustrating this is why science classes do experiments. Testing can take the form of an active experiment, or making new observations (as in astronomy). Either way, a good theory will tell you what you're going to see *before* you look.

A would-be "theory" that does not make testable predictions is not science. If the predictions are so vague that they cannot fail to be true, then the theory actually says nothing at all. Despite being always "right" by its own logic, it cannot be objectively judged right or wrong. It can be called "not falsifiable", or more simply, "useless".

Scientists object to Intelligent Design because it is useless in this way. It makes no testable predictions, so it's not even in the realm of science. Even calling it "bad science" is giving it more credit than it deserves. It is, in the words of Wolfgang Pauli, 'not even wrong".

It is often easier to discuss the relationship of theory and observation in the sense of theory "explaining" the observation, which is widely done, but that is only a secondary goal of science. Merely explaining prior observations is used to demonstrate that a theory is not obviously wrong, and is the usual first step in evaluating some new idea before going to the trouble of a formal test, but the real test of a theory is prediction.

The recent discovery of Tiktaalik roseae is an example of a prediction of evolution (and geology and plate tectonics) coming spectacularly true. An intermediate form between fish and land animals was predictedin late Devonian rock, 360 to 380 million years old, so a couple of paleontologists went looking for exposed Devonian rock that hadn't been picked over already. It was a pain to get to, but they found exactly what was predicted: half-evolved legs. (And some new information, like the eyes, neck, jaw, and ribs.)

Drug trials are a classic example of testing prediction. They attempt to eliminate the placebo effect and various other confounding factors and see of the drugs have the predicted effects.


A theory doesn't even have to be 100% right to be good science. Scientists use simple but less accurate techniques all the time then they don't need the highest levels of precision. Classical mechanics and geometric optics are both known to be inaccurate. But they're still accurate enough, in well-understood circumstances, to make *useful* predictions.

Science is a collection of ways to make useful predictions *that work*. My faith in it is based on the fact that scientific predictions are tested over and over again, until they're as predictable as the sun rising in the east, and I can relax in the darkness, confident that dawn will come on schedule. This is not faith in the absence of proof, but faith because further proof is superfluous.

The "scientific method" and peer-reviewed publications are ways of developing and testing predictions that have been found to be effective, but they're not central. Indeed, whether a theory explains something in terms of atoms and molecules or angels and demons is ultimately irrelevant. "Natural", "supernatural", "material", or "spiritual", science reduces them all to a single test: "do the predictions work?"


Now, for science that should be taught in primary and secondary schools, we have several filters:

- Non-science is not taught in science class.

- Wrong science is not taught, except as an example of better predictions displacing an earlier theory (Ptolemaic vs. Copernican astronomy, Galileo's experiments with gravity, Newtonian gravitation vs. epicycles, Thomson's "plum pudding" model of the atom, etc.) Students are generally not tested on such things because this is a science class, not a history of science class.

- Uncertain or controversial science (as opposed to generally accepted science) is not gone into in any detail. Leading-edge research is important, but if it's going to change soon, that's in the realm of post secondary education. Chomsky's universal grammar, non-black hole ultradense astronomical objects, etc.

- Finally, generally-accepted science is prioritized based on difficulty and usefulness in general education. Reynolds and Richardson numbers are essential and well-established aerodynamics, but many people can live happy and productive lives never knowing about them.

Evolution, being an often-tested and never-disproved theory that is the foundation of all of biology, is useful as general knowledge. And it's falsifiable. Some Intelligent Design advocates have at least pointed out some of the more readily disprovable predictions of evolution.

Their examples of disproof, however, fail to support Intelligent Design for two important reasons. First, on examination, evolution's predictions are not disproved. In every case, either evolution is misinterpreted and false predictions are attributed to it, or observations are misreported.

Rebutting these arguments in detail is an augean task that is being done very well by many people, who I thank.

Second, even an incontrovertible disproof of evolution would not inherently support any particular alternative theory. This is the "contrived dualism" that Judge Jones dismissed in the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision. Only if the disproving observation matched the predictions of an alternative could the alternative be considered supported.

When comparing two theories, you seek circumstances where they make conflicting predictions. Then you observe those circumstances and see which theory's predictions match the observations. The central problem of experimental design is to produce the clearest possible difference between predicted outcomes (benefit) for the the least investment in the experiment (cost).

And, while scientists are not above personal egos, they do make a very serious effort to seek out falsifying observations. That's how progress is made. Far from trying to squelch unexpected evidence, there are formal mechanisms for rewarding people who correct existing theories. The most famous involves a trip to Stockholm where the King of Sweden hands you the Nobel Prize.

You know, like Barbara McClintock got in 1983 for disproving the conventional wisdom about how genes were expressed? (Nobel Prizes are admittedly rare in biology, because it's not a category. Her work was so significant they awarded it under the "Physiology and Medicine" category. But there are other awards.)

The reason that you do not see serious searching for counterexamples to evolution (as a whole; there are details under active investigation) is that scientists have universally concluded that there are none to be found; if they want a ticket to Stockholm, there is more fruitful ground to search. There are still many research projects in biology that might stumble acros such evidence if it exists.

When Intelligent Design makes a testable prediction that conflicts with evolution, but not with pre-existing observations, then it is ready to be debated as a theory. When that prediction is tested and found to be correct, it is then worth further research. When, through enough tests to preclude the possibility of error, its predictions are found to be more accurate than those of evolution, it will become generally accepted science.

Until then, it has no place in public school science education.


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 9:35:50 PM   
SirKenin


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Ummm.  Do you mind not posting copyrighted materials, especially without giving the author credit?  And second of all, it is filled with opinion and bugger all actual supporting documentation.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 9:37:33 PM   
MistressLorelei


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

We have proof of Creation too, if we do not take it to be a literal six days.  Either way you have no point.

Evolution is a theory, that is all.  Please note that I am not stating My beliefs, I am only stating the facts.


If we eliminate the six days, and all of the other things we can't take literally either (like Adam and Eve, Noah, and .... most everything creationsim has to offer), what we have left is called evolution.


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 9:49:10 PM   
Sumimara


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Or we could just use our brains and amalgamate the theories that can actually coexist with what we have already observed and actually have a chance at working.

We do not always have to be idiots about it.


Hi....

There are several definitions of "Theory"...

Evolution or Gravity would fall under this definition:

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. 
 
 There are fossil records,  and the "theory" of evolution is the end result of repeated testing and evidence.   There is no leap of faith - and discoveries are made all the time that add to the record and validity of evolution.  

Creationism and  Intelligent Design fall under this definition:

Abstract reasoning; speculation 

Divine Intervention requires a leap of faith - you have to believe without the benefit of proof.   Faith is not based on the observable, nor can it stand up to analysis. The ID people have gotten as far as they have because in the end people in this country as a rule seem to think that "theory" simply means wild ass guess.   

The two cannot coexist because in the end FAITH which lies at the heart of ID and Creationism, will not stand up to the Scientific Method.   You cheapen Science when you open it up to superstition and you cheapen Faith when you attempt to validate it.  






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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/4/2006 9:50:34 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Evolution is a theory, that is all. 


That's right, evolution is a theory which is something more than just an idea.

Perhaps you should read up on scientific theory and method which evolution continues to go through over and over and over untill it can be proven wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node6.html

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