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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/6/2006 4:55:28 PM   
amastermind


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Daddy4UddersSlut,

You make some very interesting points.  Perhaps I am out of my league here because I am not a biologist or expert on the subject.  I only know what I learned in high school. 

If I learned correctly, there is a distinction between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution.  The fact of evolution states that amongst the gene pool, some individuals are better suited for survival than others; hence they dominated and in fact may monopolize due to the poorly suited traits resulting in extinction.   I seem to recall examples given such as butterflies in England which had white and black individuals of which eventually the white ones became extinct when polution adversely affected their ablility to camoflauge.

As I understand your post, this is what you are claiming is the existence of evolution before our eyes.  I would agree that there is little doubt as to the validity of this.  I would interpret your example of bacteria as fitting under this theory unless there is some evidence that after so many generations, the surviving bacteria is actually a different species.

That this process results in speciation, on the other hand, I believe is more controversial.  Whereas in your example, humans and monkeys evolved from the same species, I am not aware of any evidence of this.  But I must admit, that when biologists say that humans and monkeys have 98% common DNA, I am not sure what this really means or how significant it is. 

My example of dogs is does not exclude the possibility of evolution.  As you pointed out, maybe there is no advantage to one breed over another.  However, it does serve as an example that nature tends to move against speciation.

Years or generations, I don't think it really matters unless there is evidence that at some earlier epoch in time, a human (or some human precursor) generation was much shorter than 25 years, and given that most mutations are harmful,  I don't see how much speciation could have occurred.  Certainly not enough to conclude that all species had a common ancestor, as I believe the full theory of evolution claims.



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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/6/2006 5:08:21 PM   
amastermind


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Subdreamerboy,

I don't know what you think you created in the way of a mathematical argument but it is not valid.  Your line 5 does not follow from the previous lines because the standard rules of algebra (which I presume you are basing your logic on) does not allow cancelling by 0.; i.e., 5 time 0= 3 time 0.  But it does not follow that 5=3.

Also, your statement that you are god, follows from an assumption (only god can create something from nothing) which is far from obviously true.

One of the problems with proving the theory of evolution is that there is only so much evidence out there.  I am not sure what kind of an experiment one could perform to demonstrate or disprove that man and monkey had a comman ancestor.


Whether or not the debate is pointless is purely subjective.




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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/6/2006 8:04:42 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"The body of knowledge involving knowing the 'celestial mechanics' of novas, asteroids, etc. was what gave rise to the theory of heliocentricity when it was first developed thousands of years ago?. 

If you say so..... "

...well yes, i do say so...of course nowadays we call it astronomy or astrophysics or some such, but i think celestial mechanics is so much prettier a phrase.........hundreds of years of observations, passed on to succeeding generations to try and find ideas that seem to explain the observable data. It's called science.




And that body of knowledge we currently label 'astrophysics' (specifically the current level of understanding how stars are born and die) was in place before the heliocentric theory was first developed?
Those things were already well understood by those who "gave rise' to the heliocentirc theory somewhere around 200 BCE?

Not on this planet.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/6/2006 8:36:37 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amastermind

Alumbrado,

What a bunch of nonsense.  The theory that the earth goes around the sun is extremely predictive.  In fact, sunrises and sunsets are predicted with amazing accuracy in newspapers every day.  Moreover, Newton's theory of gravity was sufficiently predictive to enable many satellites and other space vehicles to be placed exactly where their launchers wanted.

Should something smash into the earth and throw it off of its orbit, that would in now way invalidate the theory of gravity.  So I don't know what you are saying.

If evolution is predictive, tell me, what will humans evolve into and when?  Or more generally, give me one prediction based on evolution.


The heliocentic theory is not how sunrises are predicted, they are predicted by accurately measuring the Earth's orbit, which is observation , not theory.
Should something smash into the Earth, it would in no way invalidate the heliocentric theory....gravity was not the point there, but thanks for the straw.

And the predictive ability of evolution regarding mutations in bacteria has been pointed out more than once...feel free to ignore it if you wish.

As I said, those who wish to test the theories or prove their faith, are welcome to refuse medical aid, jump off cliffs, or whatever they wish...
Just don't expect everyone to support the efforts to legislate that science teachers must teach faith based beliefs as scientific fact.



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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/6/2006 11:47:21 PM   
Dauric


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............

                    "Okay Humanity, Turn in your homework on How the Universe was Created."
                    "What do you mean the Dogma ate your homework?!?!"
                                                      --God, 15 minutes after Judgement Day.

Regardless wether or not you believe that we were created or evolved, we are inquisitive, learning creatures. Amongst all creatures on this planet we have a unique ability to understand the the universe, and to create tools to further our understanding of the universe. We have evolved, or been created, to delve the depths and draw the schematics of the mechanics of the universe.

Creationism and ID fall down completely on this count. It says that everything is known, we don't need to investigate anything further.* Here it all is in this neat little textbook.

*Anyone who says ID isn't creationism needs to be hit squarely on the forehead with the Cluehammer(tm). It's a typical "foot in the door" tactic.

Of course Evolution has gaps, ALL scintiffic fields have gaps, that's what makes them sciences. When there's something a real scientist can't explain they say "I don't know... Let's find out!" Answering unanswered questions is why people are wroking with String Theory, to bridge the gap between Physics and Quantum Mechanics.

----
"Oh, these beliefs are terribly old, they must have some validity to them."

I'm not normally so blunt about it, but... Bullshit.

The age of a belief has nothing to do with it's validity. Flat Earth. 'nuff said.

Ancient medical techniques like acupuncture and certain kinds of herbal remedies were discovered in their day by scientific processes, trial and error, attempts and failures. Over centuries these things had testable results, cures that really worked would be spread through word-of-mouth to other people suffering from ailments. Those who felt better from the treatments reported so and passed on the word of the treatment's effacacy. These tehniques are not effective because they are old, they are effective because they have been tested.

----
"Let's make a compromise and teach both."

Fine, but not in science class. Science classes are about the scientific method: Inquiry, Hypothesis and Trial. Religion does not have anything to do with this process. Religion is about rote memorization: "This is the truth, so sayeth the book that we say came from God."*

If you want to make a comparative thelogy class available, or even mandatory for highschool; great, more power to you. Putting religion in a science class removes the scientific method from the science.

Now I have my own, admittedly cynical view of the attempts to teach creationism in a science class. One factor being all those people who believe in the "literal word" can't bear to think of the remote possibility that they might, maybe, be a teensy-bit incorrect. Even more it seems that it bothers them that a bunch of animal herders barely able to smelt copper might not have really understood the intricacies of biology, Heaven forbid that Quantum Mechanics was beyond them as well. The cynicysm deepens when you get to the big Church organizations that require unquestioning obedience; the scientific method, being fundamentally about asking questions, threatens their hold on the people in their congregation AKA:"sheep"**.

*Leaving aside factors of translation or politics.
** I find sheep and shepeherds an apt analogy that the church uses regularly. The shepherds take the sheeps' wool, and on occasion kill and eat them.

---
"Evolution is Contriversial, it could be proven wrong at any time, children shouldn't be educated with wrong ideas."

This is shit on two levels. First Evolution is not -SCIENTIFICALLY- contriversial, it may be politically so, but the scientific community accepts the validity evolution across the board. Sure we haven't seen speciation, but then again we've only had the theory a hundred years or so. Speciation occours over milennia and eons. Rapid changes only occur when something catastrophic happens to the planet. (although we may be living the experiment depending on how this whole "global warming" thing goes, but that's a different topic.)

You want scientifically contriversial, get in to String Theory.

As far as "Wrong Ideas" the only wrong idea there is that we educate our children to stop learning. The entire concept that we go through our education and then we don't learn anything new afterward is crap. We learn new things all the time, children educated with "wrong ideas" in the past have learned to acept the right ideas when they come along... unless they live in Kansas apparently.

---
---Spleen Venting Complete, Pressure Equalized.---

If you don't mind washing off the bile, you're welcome to my...

$0.02,

Dauric.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 1:48:29 AM   
philosophy


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seems to me this is a straight fight between two paradigms.......evolution and intelligent design. From my viewpoint those with open minds end up in the evolution camp, those with an agenda end up as intelligent design bods. Basically, at its heart, intelligent design just cant accept that complexity can occur randomly, its an aesthetic argument not a scientific one. The idea that children should be educated that such a paradigm is scientific would be laughable if it wasn't serious. In my opinion this is child abuse at an intellectual level.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 5:28:25 AM   
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Actually, the truth is that those who believe evolution is the only possible answer have a closed mind and an agenda.  Those who believe that creation is the only possible answer have a closed mind and an agenda.  It is those that can see how everything can work together that have the open mind.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 7:04:17 AM   
philosophy


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.......thing is SK, you seem to think a scientific theory is set up and then never changed. Science doesn't just allow new data to contradict it, it actively expects it to. Yes, right now i believe evolution theory is the only one any sane, evidence based mind can accept. The key words in that phrase are 'right now', should an evidence based theory come along that supplants it, and is a better model for predicting the future then i'll change my opinion. To give intelligent design the status of a scientific theory, and therefore of equal value to evolution, is simply to misunderstand what science is.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 7:15:42 AM   
SirKenin


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I did not say give intelligent design the status of a scientific theory.  I said keep an open mind, which you do not.  You want to appear smart, but you really are not that bright.  There are a number of possibilities, and a wise man takes into consideration all of them.  You do not.  You remind Me of the Major in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within that despite whatever possibilities were presented to him, he sat there slamming his fist and said "WHERE IS THE PROOF"?  You may or may not know what happened.  In the end he was proven wrong and in his efforts to destroy that which he knew nothing about because of his closed mind he destroyed both his crew and himself.  There is a lesson to be learned there and you would be wise to learn it.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 7:25:20 AM   
philosophy


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"You remind Me of the Major in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within that despite whatever possibilities were presented to him, he sat there slamming his fist and said "WHERE IS THE PROOF"?  You may or may not know what happened.  In the end he was proven wrong and in his efforts to destroy that which he knew nothing about because of his closed mind he destroyed both his crew and himself.  There is a lesson to be learned there and you would be wise to learn it."

i know the animation was good, but didn't realise it was being used as an example of how to think straight. Is this just an american education thing?


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 1:15:31 PM   
MrrPete


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quote:

No, God did not wave a magic wand 6,000 years ago and VOILA!!! Life.


You're right he didn't wave a magic wand. He simply spoke and it was. "Let there be light."

But when it came to man God knelt down and formed man lovingly and caringly from the earth
and THEN He bent closer and gave man the breathe of life and man BECAME a living soul.

< Message edited by MrrPete -- 8/7/2006 1:16:05 PM >


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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 1:37:36 PM   
amastermind


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Alumbrudo,

How do you predict anything from observations without a theory?  Observations tell you what was in the past.  Prediction, by definition, refers to the future.  The process of predicting the future based on the past is exactly what we call theory.  It really isn't that complicated.  But sophistry can make it appear so.

If the theory of evolution is so predictive, tell me what it predicts man to evolve into and when.  If by predictive you mean that if you select certain genetic traits and kill exterminate all individuals that carry it, then the theory predicts that that trait will become extinct, I say that is more the predictive capabilities of a tautology than of any theory of evolution.

I will not take the bait on the political aspects of the debate.  I have no interest in it.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 1:55:47 PM   
SirKenin


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One thing that I can think of off the top of My head that appears to defend the evolutionary process is the fact that we all descend from a common ancestor.  The Sumarians.  Every race and creed.  This is the currently acceptable theory, anyways.  If that is the case, at one time we all had the same skin tones and facial features.  It would appear that as we moved to different climates, our skin tones adapted to the various climates.

This is My understanding of it anyways.  I am not saying this is 100% correct, but I know I have the gyst of it.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 2:36:17 PM   
amastermind


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SirKenon,

I don't know if your post was meant in jest or not, but you certainly don't have the gyst of it right.  There was a theory that environmental factors create speciation promoted by I believe someone called Lamark.  He hypothesised that giraffes evolved long necks by stretching for food for many generations.  But I don't think anyone accepts his theories.  Perhaps someone with more expertise can weigh in.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 3:00:42 PM   
SirKenin


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Funny thing is, I can not even remember where I saw that theory put forward.  Maybe it was on the Discovery Channel.  lol.  I do remember that they aired a show or two on how the earth was populated and where they felt man originated from.  It was a fascinating episode from what I remember of it.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 4:44:50 PM   
TopCurious0


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Actually, the truth is that those who believe evolution is the only possible answer have a closed mind and an agenda.  Those who believe that creation is the only possible answer have a closed mind and an agenda.  It is those that can see how everything can work together that have the open mind.


Yes, I have the agenda that science is what should be taught in sicence class...
Saying you think both are true does not mean you have an open mind, it means you have your own pet theory of how things work.

Right now, there are enough people who don't know what they are talking about that I am reluctant to listen to most ID proponents or creationists. However, if you show me something by a reputable biologist (who is not affiliated with any specific pro-ID advocasy group) or information theory expert, who can present evidance on ID that can present evidence that supports ID, and has an actual date when the design happoned, I will be willing to listen.

There is not a reasonable compromise on this issue. If you say Pi=3, I won't try to compromize, and I will not extend you any slack when I listen to your argument about why it is so.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 4:56:10 PM   
SirKenin


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Sure.  Read up on the Chaos Theory.  That is the most recent breakthrough that suggests that something or someone is behind the whole thing.

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 8:35:13 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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Mastermind,
    I have to say I appreciate the sincereity of your response, as you seem to be treating this as a discussion, and not an arguement to be won.  So, first, hat's off for that.

    I am a scientist, a chemist by degrees, but with a fair amount of university biology training as well (biochemistry, microbiology, genetics).  I will try to be careful to qualify any statement for which that's appropriate though.

I am not aware of a separation between fact and theory of evolution.  Hopefully I won't insult you with the following, but here is an overview of what is required for an evolutionary process:

1. A means of encoding all of the "traits", i.e. form and functions of an individual.  For most organisms, this is done by the DNA. The DNA is, if you will, an instruction set for constructing the individual, as well as for its operation.  The construction portion is still fairly hazy, but the interdisciplinary field of Developmental Biology is making strong inroads into these mysteries - that is, how do we get from a single fertilized egg to a complex and fully functioning animal?  Understanding the operation is further along - likewise there are likely decades yet before this understanding is completed, but a lot is already known, thanks to the fields of Genomics, Proteomics, and the new Systems Biology.

2. A means for passing the instruction set from parent to "child", and I use the latter term loosely, as asexual reproduction by bacteria and even the reproduction of viruses by the host cells still follows the general process.

3. A means for introducing variation into the instruction set received by the "child".  That is, a mechanism for introducing arbitrary variation of those traits passed on by the "parent".  Considering the population as a system, this is a mechanism for "experimentation" (no I am not implying though controlled experimentation or a guiding hand).  This variation takes two principle forms - random "mutations" of bases in the DNA, and random shuffling or "recombination" of the parent genetic codes.  In sexual reproduction, there is also the random mixing of traits from mother and father to generate the diploid genes of the child.  There are of course other specific forms of variation, but what's already been discussed is sufficient.

4. An "environmental selection mechanism".  While often a survival threat to individuals within the population, that's not necessary.  All that's necessary is a mechanism for differentiating who is likely to reproduce, and how much, since it's the act of reproduction that actually determines the form of the generation that follows.

That's all you need.  With such a system, you will necessarily get a greater preponderous of the traits of individuals who are better suited to reproduce in the succeeding generations.  Depending on the strength of the environmental pressure to discriminate between "fit" and "unfit" individuals, evolution will proceed more or less rapidly.  A strong environmental pressure, like a drug that kills 99% of the microbes in a patient's body before they can reproduce, rapidly selects for the fittest individuals.

I have carried out computer simulations of evolution.  Not for the reason of abstract curiousity, but to optimize otherwise "intractable" mathematical functions (applied math work).  In these simulations, you have an environmental pressure or "fitness function", you have random mutations, random shuffling of the traits, and generations producing offspring.  Individuals in the population constitute solutions in progress to the optimization problem.  It works, and it works extremely well to optimize functions.  You can find this sort of work under "Genetic Algorithms" or "Evolutionary Optimization".  Certainly once you've done that kind of work, you know that evolution can solve very difficult problems, and can move very far within a relatively small number of generations (usually 100-500) to achieve optimization.

As far as historical evidence for organisms essentially tuning to prevailing environmental conditions of their period, we know for example that during the ice age, animals developed that had thick fat insulation and heavy fur coats to withstand the cold, e.g. wooly mammoths.  They weren't there before the ice age, and they weren't there afterwards. They developed as variants on existing animals over a relatively small number of generations and dissappeared the same way.

I don't think that nature tends to either move towards or against differentiation - nature doesn't care.  Because of the mechanisms of genetic variation though, individuals are constantly being created that are different than their "parents".  If that difference creates a reproductive advantage - for instance, greater height to reach food above the ground that other individuals cannot, then it tends to be perpetuated by straightforward the straightforward probabilistic reinforcement of the traits that are desirable under the prevailing environmental condition.  If not, then the trait will tend to be eliminated or "averaged out".

When you "upset the balance of nature", creating a different environment, you will tend to get development of modifications that work better under the new environment, as in the case of the Wooly Mammoth.  There is really no limit to the extent of such modifications, except in the case where a survival pressure is very strong and virtually no individuals in the population are able to survive to produce offspring.  Then the species may simply be wiped out within a few generations. 

What constitutes a species is actually somewhat arbitrary.  The concept is extremely useful, because it allows organisms to be grouped and the groups thought about collectively, a simplifying principle if you will.  But there is no fundamental line dividing species, rather there are just widely agreed upon conventions for what is "different enough" to constitute a species.  Furthermore, distinctions may be compared in "phenotype" or observable traits, or, increasingly, by genotype.  Indeed, taxonimists argue about that sort of thing all the time!

Certainly one of my weakest areas in biology is what is now called "Evolutionary Biology", which studies not the process of evolution or whether it exists, but rather the historical process that evolution has actually taken for life on our planet - basically trying to look back in time and understand the timeline from "Genesis" if you will until today.  This field is a mixture of physical evidence, theory, and imagination, as it must necessarily be, when looking back millions and even billions of years ago.

When you look at an evolutionary tree, a taxonomic tree, you are looking back into time, even if you look only at extant (as opposed to extinct) species.  The more distantly organisms are related, the further back in time they diverged from one another in the evolutionary process over the millenia.

It may seem odd for example that you might share some kinship with a plant.  But, even looking at plants today and humans today, considerable homology (correspondence) is found in their DNA, even though they diverged by most scientists' reckoning over 1 billion years ago.  In fact, in the drug industry, where we study human biology extensively, if a new protein is discovered, and it's folding structure and its function are unknown, we use as the starting point for our analysis the closest known related protein, which often comes from another animal.  The reason that this works is that the common ancestor gave an ancestral protein both to us and to the model organism.  While its structure has been modified over evolutionary time in both organisms, there is also a pressure for it to remain the same, if it is important.  Hence there is normally very useful structural and functional correspondence at the protein level - that is, between homologous proteins from different species.

I don't want to go down too much into the weeds of how whole genomes are compared, but that is the subject of the new discipline of Comparative Genomics, only made possible by new technologies allowing very rapid sequencing, as the DNA code for an entire organism is huge.  There are in fact multiple ways to calculate such a metric as "DNA in common".  Broadly speaking though, it means that they found an overlap between the two genomes of 98%, meaning, they found corresponding genes for 98% of those genes evaluated, where correspond means "similar enough" at some threshold chosen by the analyst.  It doesn't mean 98% of genes were *identical* at the sequence level, it means 98% of the genes were very similar.  For more on this read about "genomic sequence comparison", "sequence alignment" and the like.


Whether it's due to the use of new methods of analysis (such as comparative DNA analysis to look into the existing physical evidence, or the discovery of new physical evidence (some new fossil remains found that reveal a previously unknown species), the historical tree of biology, including those branches close to humans, continues to be revised.  This though doesn't call into question the existence of evolution as the historical and present process that transforms and adapts the form of living things.  It merely revises the historical relationships of exactly what came when, and from where.

As far as historical evidence for evolution causing branching and divergence, this can be seen just by looking at the fossil record.  Not only have species become "obsolete" and extinct which didn't compete with the "new models" under new environmental conditions, but life has become increasingly diverse over geologic time.  The conceptual basis for this is simple - any time an "experiment" produces something that has a new advantage (fills a previously unsatisfied or poorly satsified ecological niche), it will be preserved and extended through reproduction and further variation.  It's only in the past few centuries, due to the proliferation of man and the ascendency of his technology, that the earth is decreasing in biological diversity - man is wiping everything else out, whether by killing as nuisance, as food source, or by toxic effluent, elimination of habitat or food supply.

Evolution does indicate that all species had a common ancestor.  The theoretical evidence for this is just to mentally run the divergent evolutionary process backwards, and you'll see it becomes convergent when one runs it backwards in time.  While we don't know precisely what the ancestral organism(s) are, a lot is known about this, because the structures and DNA that we have today, are simply modified versions of what has come before, and so, at the molecular level, one can also look back into time.  There is for example, considerable evidence to indicate that Eukaryotes (which have a nucleus) have arisen from symbiotic absorption of one prokaryote into another.  See endosymbiotic theory, for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_endosymbiosis_theory.  It may seem fanciful at first, but there is a lot to back this up.

People tend to be very interested in themselves (their own species), so if you want to look a bit into the taxonomy and history of human like creatures, here is a pointer into Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

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RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 9:01:56 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amastermind

SirKenon,

I don't know if your post was meant in jest or not, but you certainly don't have the gyst of it right.  There was a theory that environmental factors create speciation promoted by I believe someone called Lamark.  He hypothesised that giraffes evolved long necks by stretching for food for many generations.  But I don't think anyone accepts his theories.  Perhaps someone with more expertise can weigh in.


amastermind,
The example of the giraffe is exactly the wrong way to think of how evolution takes place.  Life doesn't evolve as a reaction to the environment; instead, subtle changes take place and give an advantage to members of a species while others receive changes that put them at a disadvantage to varying degrees.  As a result, the life forms with the best advantage survive while those that do not die out.
 
The fact that giraffes have long necks which they use to eat food at the tops of trees is a crude example of the web of life.  Keep in mind that life is a network of interdependencies and what you see at any given point in time is a set of collective changes that all work together as a system.  Evolution involves everything, not just some portion of all life forms.
 
This is one thing that is observable all around us and not just a theory.  As far as prediction is concerned.  I think some of the people arguing this point are confusing prediction with projection...as if you could look at the fossil record over time right up to the present and tell what will come next.  That's a common mistake.  All you can predict is that change will continue to take place and maybe have a very rough idea which major forces will play a role...but change into what?  Who can tell.
 
I don't think it's close-minded to realize that religion is a story based view of the universe.  It involves the human imagination trying to explain something it didn't have any understanding of when it was developed long before writing was invented.  After writing was invented, it was formalized and institutionalized.  There was a time when it served a great purpose in many ways but as humanity improves its understanding of the world, religion is becoming obsolete as an explanation.  The true value of religion today is the values it advocates as a guide for living a good life, which has nothing to do with how everything came to be.  This is also something you can observe happening all around us.
 
Edit to note:  Just read the excellent exposition just before my post here.  What I'm saying is a very "macro" description of what is contained in that post regarding how evolution takes place.

anthrosub

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 8/7/2006 9:09:05 PM >


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(in reply to amastermind)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: God, Darwin, and Kansas - 8/7/2006 9:10:59 PM   
StrongButKind


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Joined: 10/15/2004
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FYI,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1747926,00.html

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 120
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