Discipline & Punishment

Discipline & Punishment (Full Version)

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BlkTallFullfig -> Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 11:53:02 AM)
I don't consider myself a sadist, but feel am very capable of hurting someone who enjoys being hurt. I do consider myself a disciplinarian who could/would hurt someone within a D/s relationship if he were thoughtless or disobedient without an explanation for his contrary/disappointing behavior. I don't however enjoy needing to punish someone (even as he consents to it), and find the line blurry when it comes to how much discipline is needed/apropriate to achieve the result I want/need. How does one know whether disobedience is the sub/slave passively resisting or his being forgetful/occasionally flaky? Would you punish, leave, or discuss alternatives? It isn't a current issue, but it's something I want to be more comfortable about in my future relationship. I hope the question makes sense, thanks for participating anyone and everyone. M

TeeGO -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 12:01:53 PM)
I believe punishment and discipline are two different things. Punishment is for the obvious wrong committed. Discipline is for establishing the parameters of who's in charge. Puts the sub in the proper mindframe of obedience with a reminder of their place.

MisPandora -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 12:59:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig I don't consider myself a sadist, but feel am very capable of hurting someone who enjoys being hurt. I do consider myself a disciplinarian who could/would hurt someone within a D/s relationship if he were thoughtless or disobedient without an explanation for his contrary/disappointing behavior. I don't however enjoy needing to punish someone (even as he consents to it), and find the line blurry when it comes to how much discipline is needed/apropriate to achieve the result I want/need. How does one know whether disobedience is the sub/slave passively resisting or his being forgetful/occasionally flaky? Would you punish, leave, or discuss alternatives? It isn't a current issue, but it's something I want to be more comfortable about in my future relationship. I hope the question makes sense, thanks for participating anyone and everyone. M Food for thought: Hurting a masochist for punishment is rarely an effective method to avert them from their undesirable behavior.

Sylverdawn -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 2:20:46 PM)
I agree punishment and discipline are different. You punish if he/she make a purposeful mistake; ie be home at 5.30 and they arrive at 6.00 without a reasonable reason. Discipline takes the form of correction.. Poor posture while standing at attention, shoes not polished correctly etc. Discipline used to set the standard to meet inside the boundaries of a relationship. Discipline=Expectation Punishment=Failure to Perform

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 8:44:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn I agree punishment and discipline are different. You punish if he/she make a purposeful mistake; ie be home at 5.30 and they arrive at 6.00 without a reasonable reason What if he says the mistake wasn't purposeful? quote: Discipline takes the form of correction.. Poor posture while standing at attention, shoes not polished correctly etc. Discipline used to set the standard to meet inside the boundaries of a relationship. Discipline=Expectation Punishment=Failure to Perform Perhaps I shouldn't have mixed the two (punishment and discipline)... I believe the case is one of discipline: Where I would train someone to my desired behavior/expectation, but when the time came, he failed to perform... What do you do when that expectation is not met? Punish, talk or leave? Thanks MsPandora, I understand, and I wasn't suggesting I would hurt a masochist for punishment... I was trying to express disliking punishment, and preferring simply discipline, but what would one do when discipline failed? M

Misstoyou -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 9:31:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig I believe the case is one of discipline: Where I would train someone to my desired behavior/expectation, but when the time came, he failed to perform... What do you do when that expectation is not met? Punish, talk or leave? It depends on the nature of the failure, of course, but assuming it's not a deal breaker by definition (something that he's well aware that if he can't live up to the expectation, he has no place in my life) if he's been adequately trained, but then failed and needs correction, I both talk and punish. The talking comes first...the discussion of the mutual clarity of expectation that was to be met, (that he knew exactly what he was suppose to do), mutual agreement that he was up to meeting the expectation (because if the failure was the result of inadequate training, that's "my bad" and it's unfair to punish), his acknowledgement of his failure, and giving him the opportunity to express his remorse about disappointing me (he damn well better be sorry! lol). But heartfelt remorse is never enough to avoid punishment. In addition to the negative reinforcement the submissive gets from the punishment (it has to be something he says, "I don't want to have to go through that again") the punishment also reinforces to the submissive that his failure was something important enough to me to expend my energy on. Finally, punishment provides cleansing and closure, the clean slate for him to start again. I personally think the aftercare after punishing is the most important element for changing a submissive's attitude or behavior, and rekindle that drive to do whatever it takes to make me happy.

MisPandora -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 9:40:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig Thanks MsPandora, I understand, and I wasn't suggesting I would hurt a masochist for punishment... I was trying to express disliking punishment, and preferring simply discipline, but what would one do when discipline failed? M Punishment doesn't always just happen as a result of failed discipline. Bottom line: people fuck up. It doesn't HAVE to be physical, and that was my reference when you posted the questions the way you did. Punishment should fit the crime, should reinforce the expected behavior, and should create an aversion towards being displeasing in that manner again. Some of my favored punishments involve writing, especially reflecting on what being a disappointment feels like, and restrictions of speech or privileges.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 9:44:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Misstoyou The talking comes first...the discussion of the mutual clarity of expectation that was to be met, (that he knew exactly what he was suppose to do), mutual agreement that he was up to meeting the expectation (because if the failure was the result of inadequate training, that's "my bad" and it's unfair to punish), his acknowledgement of his failure, and giving him the opportunity to express his remorse about disappointing me (he damn well better be sorry! lol). But heartfelt remorse is never enough to avoid punishment. In addition to the negative reinforcement the submissive gets from the punishment (it has to be something he says, "I don't want to have to go through that again") the punishment also reinforces to the submissive that his failure was something important enough to me to expend my energy on. Finally, punishment provides cleansing and closure, the clean slate for him to start again. I personally think the aftercare after punishing is the most important element for changing a submissive's attitude or behavior, and rekindle that drive to do whatever it takes to make me happy. Thank you, that's what I was looking for. [:)] M

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/6/2006 10:35:46 PM)
Sorry didn't see the second reply... quote: Punishment should fit the crime, should reinforce the expected behavior, and should create an aversion towards being displeasing in that manner again. Some of my favored punishments involve writing, especially reflecting on what being a disappointment feels like, and restrictions of speech or privileges. Thank you, I understand what you're saying now. quote: TeeGO Discipline is for establishing the parameters of who's in charge. Puts the sub in the proper mindframe of obedience with a reminder of their place Thanks Teego for the ideas. M

Jasmyn -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/7/2006 8:15:15 AM)
quote: Hurting a masochist for punishment is rarely an effective method to avert them from their undesirable behavior. I often wonder why? when people talk about physical punishment as a been ineffective in disciplining a masochist... delivering pain for pleasure's or endurance sake, or even on one of my whims, is a far cry from delivering a physical punishment ... well it is with me ...it doesn't become something they seek to re-enact ...though I'd say it could be true of a dsyfunctional sub type...forcing someone's hand... to beat them...reinforcing the view they have of themselves as worthless ... I can see then, phyiscal or any kind of punishment would be less than effective...then again, I probably wouldn't be disciplining or even punishing a 'masochist' ...but a submissive, my submissive ... who may or may not happen to be a masochist as well

Jasmyn -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/7/2006 8:26:55 AM)
Misstoyou, I have a similar outlook towards discipline and punishment of a sub.. great response

Jasmyn -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/7/2006 9:26:07 AM)
quote: How does one know whether disobedience is the sub/slave passively resisting or his being forgetful/occasionally flaky? M, thats a very good question... assuming boundaries/expectations etc have been discussed and a green light to having a d/s based dynamic happening between a dom and sub ...I'm going to say... the first could be topping from the bottom (a term I'm loathe to use though, you're only topped if you let yourself be) or it could be a case they are just not that into someone (to borrow a phrase), disinterested, a case of she'll do till someone else comes along... cynical, but it's always a possibility ... but sometimes calling them on it, regardless of what it is, letting them know just how aware you are of what it is they are trying to do and advising just how far it will get them, either they begin to obey or they can leave ... even the guy that not into someone, can have a change of heart when given that kind of ultimatum...or it could be they are simply nervous and over playing their hand, desperately trying to get it right all the while getting it wrong ...sometimes pointing it out, you are appreciative that he does try, but that constantly having to correct his mistakes or his attitude/behaviour is tiresome... asking, does he really want this kind of d/s..and if yes, then what is holding him back ...and if it's not, perhaps together you can work out some other arrangment...but to be a committed submissive, or more to the point, to be you're committed submissive, is probably not in either of your best interests. quote: I was trying to express disliking punishment, and preferring simply discipline, but what would one do when discipline failed? I guess it's not so much a case of the discipline having failed, but in them failing to observe the discipline (instilled?) expected...I'd try to find out why they are failing to observe it and act accordingly ... finding out whether we are actually on the same wave length ... and if not, is there a common ground that could be worked on ... and weighing that up against how important this person has become or has the potential to become, in my life ...

thetammyjo -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/7/2006 9:29:08 AM)
I would gauge the situation by the type of disobedience. If it is the same situation over and over (or three times is the max in my house) then I'd take that as a sign that someone lied about goals and motivation and that's a "bye bye" then. There are folks who want to be forced and I would expect those to act this way; I don't want a person like that however. If it is different situations -- different activities, different or more intense levels of service/training, then it could simply be how that person learns. Try, make an error, get corrected, learn and move on. This would be a once or twice error in my opinion. If it is related to the type of situation -- erotic versus mundane, in your presence versus apart -- then it might indicate an area of difference between what you think is part of the deal and what the sub/slave thinks is part of the deal. Have a discussion maybe renegotiate. Just my thoughts.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Discipline & Punishment (8/7/2006 1:19:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jasmyn quote: How does one know whether disobedience is the sub/slave passively resisting or his being forgetful/occasionally flaky? sometimes pointing it out, you are appreciative that he does try, but that constantly having to correct his mistakes or his attitude/behaviour is tiresome... asking, does he really want this kind of d/s..and if yes, then what is holding him back ...and if it's not, perhaps together you can work out some other arrangment...but to be a committed submissive, or more to the point, to be you're committed submissive, is probably not in either of your best interests Thank you Jasmyn. As I said this is not a current problem, but one I have encountered in the past, and want to deal with effectively if I should encounter it in the future, while hoping I do not (at least not frequently). I agree that after having discussions and agreeing on the boundaries, there ought not to be too much forgetfulness if he is committed to staying in the relationship. quote: quote: I was trying to express disliking punishment, and preferring simply discipline, but what would one do when discipline failed? I guess it's not so much a case of the discipline having failed, but in them failing to observe the discipline (instilled?) expected...I'd try to find out why they are failing to observe it and act accordingly ... finding out whether we are actually on the same wave length ... and if not, is there a common ground that could be worked on .. This working on common ground is what is a little scary, because I believe it frequently becomes a matter of giving up D/s in order to remain in the relationship, and I don't believe that would ever work for me... I suppose experience and time will tell in the future. quote: thetammyjo If it is different situations -- different activities, different or more intense levels of service/training, then it could simply be how that person learns. Try, make an error, get corrected, learn and move on. This would be a once or twice error in my opinion. As always your thoughts make perfect sense to me, thank you. M

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