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Submissives & Morality? - 12/23/2004 10:12:06 AM

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After talking to someone online today. I had a few questions I thought I would pose here.

We always seem to have definitions of what a "good" or "true" dominant is. How come we don't have definitions of what a "good" submissive is?
Is it just easier being submissive? Are there less "qualifications?" Do morals come into play?

For instance what if a dominant was with a submissive who had severely low self esteem? Does that make them less submissive?
What if one was abusing oneself with drugs or alcohol? How does that affect the dominant?
Are they any less submissive then?
When a submissive throws a tantrum making the dominant humiliated, does that make them less submissive?

Is it a double standard? Where are the rules all submissives should follow? What makes a good one?

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/23/2004 11:01:28 AM

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Ohhh what a wonderful question!! Of course I have my own views, but this is one definitely for the Dominants! No double standards here, I know I am accountable for my behavior and morals definitely are important!

*waits patiently for the posts*
~fate~

_____________________________

"Be still, sad heart and cease repining; Behind the clouds is the sun still shining; Thy fate is the common fate of all, Into each life some rain must fall, Some days must be dark and dreary."
~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/23/2004 2:10:19 PM

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Ok, I'll take a stab at this just to get the ball rolling.

I don't think that a definition of what makes a good submissive would be very useful, but I don't think the definitions of dominants are all that useful either. But since you asked the question, I'll guess that the reason we don't see definitions of what makes a good submissive is because it is assumed that the submissive is whatever the dominant wants her/him to be. Of course, all that is within the context of good matchmaking, a point which some fools overlook so when a submissive rejects their advances they respond with "You aren't a true submissive."

So, IMO, good or bad dominant or submissive is really a matter of whatever somebody is looking for and how you match up.

As for the issues of drugs, alcohol, and tantrums -- they only make someone human, not less submissive.

_____________________________

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RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/23/2004 3:43:26 PM

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greetings....

Interesting questions. I am not going into definitions here as you probably wouldn't like mine but I would like to answer those questions you posed.

quote:

For instance what if a dominant was with a submissive who had severely low self esteem? Does that make them less submissive?

No. Regretfully all to many subs and slaves have low self esteem. Sometimes severely so. To many, that makes them even more submissive as they have no self worth to oppose whatever is done to them. It doesn't matter, they deserve bad things is their thinking. I am talking with a girl right now who is going through one of those periods and I am trying to get her out of it.

quote:

What if one was abusing oneself with drugs or alcohol? How does that affect the dominant?
Are they any less submissive then?

That makes the dominant's job incredibly harder unless they are trying to further destroy a human being. Yes, I know some people do want to do that. I have a term for those people. Sick. In this case I don't think it makes the person any more or less submissive. It just means they are serving two masters instead of one.

quote:

When a submissive throws a tantrum making the dominant humiliated, does that make them less submissive?

Yes, it does. At that point they are in control of what is happening to their dominant and imposing their will on them. Yes, I know, a sub has the ultimate controls over a dominant anyway, but most of the time the fiction of the dominant being in control is maintained.

Be well....

Malkinius

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/23/2004 4:47:52 PM

LordODiscipline

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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH -
<burp>
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

>sigh>

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/23/2004 5:01:06 PM

LordODiscipline

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OK -
By way of explanation....

This is like asking if someone likes "oranges" (pick a fruit, any fruit from the deck)...

It is sincerely a personal issue..... and, the definition of subjective elements like 'morality', 'good', 'true' and their ilk lends to the confusion (and, inherent human need to conform to societal defintions) that permeates our ever constant desire to 'study our collective navel'.

I have been called a "horrible" (vice 'good') dominant... I have been accused of abuse (I am an abusive SOB when playing).. I have seen people who's art I greatly admire at needle work, bondage, knife play,etc.. denegrated by people who do not hold that kink simply because they (the collective) do not like 'what it is that they are doing'.

My girl (on the other hand) is greatly admired by many of these self same people (I think it is mainly because she can tolerate my conversation and myself)... and, yet - she likes what I do to her.

As they say in NY "Go Figgya'....

In my opinion (yes, I have a few of those), anyone who accepts another person's definition of "good" "true" "morality" without a great desire to impose (at least) a few provisos to the definition, is not a cogent entity and really should strongly desire to get the money back on the lobotomy deposit they are scheduled for.

And, Malkinus - if the submissive has 'ultimate control' in a relationship, their partner really should consider trading their proverbial "whip" for a "collar".

Any how - Now that I have regurgitated and am thoroughly purged for the moment... I return you to your regularly scheduled rhetoric and half told tales of The Land of Unrequited Cliche.

~J

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/24/2004 3:28:05 AM

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I have one rule only:

Be honest.

That one seems to be a handful for most people.

Lam

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RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/24/2004 7:46:54 AM

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There are many things to look for in a true dominant, But, Also in a true sub/slave, First what is true?......Real, Not a fake..Many of those (fakes) around in dominants also.. But for a sub/slave, Honesty has to be on top, Trustworthyness, Confidence, Well a little anyway, Wisdom, Be able to communicate, Have the capacity to love, Have the desire to learn, Compassion, A disire to serve and to please a dominant, A sense of humor... I am sure there are a few other things that I am missing, But, You get the idea.....

MasterLon

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/27/2004 3:51:49 PM

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Thank you everyone for your comments. This is a situation I've never personally been in. I have found a few in the past few weeks who have. I think its good to talk about it.

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RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/27/2004 3:56:26 PM

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A good one simply makes you feel good about yourself.

Like any workable relationship.

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RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/27/2004 8:51:04 PM

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quote:

And, Malkinus - if the submissive has 'ultimate control' in a relationship, their partner really should consider trading their proverbial "whip" for a "collar".

Greetings LOD....

Think about it this way. As long as a safe word exists, the ultimate control is with the person who can stop what is going on. That is the reality no matter what lip service both parties may say about their relationship. I don' use them or allow them for that reason. But, I don't do things that would require them either. How much is a safe word needed when a slave is commanded to make me a cup of coffee? Is she going to yell "RED!" at the coffee pot to keep it from burning her? <grins>

Be well....

Malkinius

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/28/2004 2:28:44 AM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

Think about it this way. As long as a safe word exists, the ultimate control is with the person who can stop what is going on. That is the reality no matter what lip service both parties may say about their relationship.

Malkinius -

Think about it this way - as long as bindings exist and a conscious ability to 'ignore' when a safe word is uttered....

That is the reality for myself.

Note: It is a sophist argument no matter which way it is sliced ;)

~J

(in reply to Malkinius)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/28/2004 5:32:37 PM

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quote:

if the submissive has 'ultimate control' in a relationship, their partner really should consider trading their proverbial "whip" for a "collar".

A wise man once said on these boards the opposite of dominance and submission arent each other rather their opposites are indecision and stubborness and I agree. If the slave baulks at My wants and whims then I no longer dom them, until they agree to My terms it remains that way.

Jasmyn

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/28/2004 6:16:59 PM

leatherslave2004

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On the subject of safewords, perhaps subbies can, this slave cannot, could not even if she were allowed to, it just isn't in her nature. Master says she is a good slave, because:
a) she is obedient in all things He asks of her
b) she is respectful always (He has taught her to be so)
c) she continually tries to improve herself, including her self-esteem, her service, and stiffling her own wants/needs for His
d) she can handle His sadism (most of the time)
e) she serves him with passion and caring...
*as to drugs - she wouldn't dream of doing them, bdsm and drugs don't mix well at all.

did i mention she was obedient? He gives her rules she follows them, He tells her she is a good slave.
***This is not to say she doesn't get bratty, or that she isn't spoiled or that she doesn't stomp her feet, cause the truth is she does, (and frequently.)
*Master is always in control, that is the bottom line, He calls the shots, she does what He says. Every Master has their own rules they put down for that particualr slave, but this girl has seen protocols and "101 slave rules" that have generically been passed around. *Learning to be a good slave is something that doesn't happen over night and any good Master is patient, even when He is dealing with a slave with a low self-esteem. These things can be corrected by the right One.
Hope this helps,
leatherslave2004

(in reply to Jasmyn)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/28/2004 7:36:14 PM

LordODiscipline

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Thank you Jasmyn -

Pretty much my opinion as well.

The psycho-babble that can be directly associated with (what was known as) new-age throught is prevalent in the thoughts of Americans today. Arguments about the inverse of a situation is considered (in some circles) to be a positively revealing idiom that notates a person's intelligence.

It often can be (depending on the originality of the thought) - but, where it makes no sense.. where it negates the original intent, it is simply ludicrous.

As the entirety of the leather/power exchange dynamic involves a submissive cleaving to the wishes (not the person, necessarily - but, the desires) of someone who is (at least allegedly) dominant, to state the antithesis is 'the actuality', denotes a significant shift in this dynamic; and, demonstrates a significant failing in the alleged relationship's premise.

In fact, one might state that the entire affair is a sham relative to the fact that it is based on a 'window dressing' appearance of cleavage to a sub-cultural norm, vice the reality of the stated arrangement.

I am not sure how it might survive... and, the fact that the 'honesty' that (and, this is not a premise I enjoin) allegedly exists in our "special" relational dynamic would be tacitly missing from the 'git go'.

The fact is that our society (American/Western) finds an odd comfort in the mixed up analogy of: "I hit, but I don't hurt" to the extent that people actually believe such permutated and skewed logic, as though (to do so) they are somehow alleviated of any (real or misspent) 'guilt' for their association with things that are contrary to popular (or, accepted) view ("I never hurt my wife - and, we enjoy a 50-50 relational dynamic; even though she is my slave".)

Unfortunately, this simply does not "wash" in any situation - and, definitively is the opposite of what this is all about.

Anyhow - I rambled enough, I am sure.

~J

(in reply to Jasmyn)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/28/2004 10:09:00 PM

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quote:

d) she can handle His sadism (most of the time)

What do you do when you can't handle it? Do you grin and bare it or do you stop him?

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to leatherslave2004)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/30/2004 10:14:15 AM

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quote:

What do you do when you can't handle it? Do you grin and bare it or do you stop him?

i grin & bear it (and not always quietly

), & on occasion, i sometimes beg Him to stop.

In my opinion ...
What makes anyone a good submissive, can only be defined by the Dom/Domme who owns them, or is concidering them.
Likewise ...
What makes a good Dom/Domme, can only be defined by the submissive looking to be owned or concidered.

A good submissive will capable of bringing out the best of any good Dom/Domme that they are compatible with.
Likewise ...
A good Dom/Domme will be capable of bringing out the best in any good submissive that they are compatible with. And a very good Dom/Domme MAKES a submissive WANT to submit.

¸,ø¤º°cynnacent°º¤ø,¸ (proudly owned by, and devoted to INSIDEYOURMIND)

< Message edited by cynnacent1 -- 12/30/2004 10:19:31 AM >

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RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/30/2004 9:41:47 PM

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quote:

What do you do when you can't handle it? Do you grin and bare it or do you stop him?

I never grin but I deal with it. Even if the pain is too severe. We communicate afterwords until everything is worked out.

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: Submissives & Morality? - 12/30/2004 11:06:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

quote:

d) she can handle His sadism (most of the time)

What do you do when you can't handle it? Do you grin and bare it or do you stop him?

Last time i was getting near my edge, i found myself begging Him to stop, but not safewording... i would not safeword unless i was in physical danger (ie, rope tied too tight cutting off blood supply to limb). i did not feel this way when i was new to the lifestyle, but i now trust that He will not "give" more than i can "take".

(in reply to proudsub)

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