Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again

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Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 11:42:07 AM

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I have a question for everyone. After reading different posts and opinions it seems very difficult to find agreement for what it means to be submissive or slave. One common thread through all these posts are that generally, a submissive still has SOME control in her life and a slave does not. But all of it is, and should be consenual.

Here is my question: Suppose one, by general opinion appears to be submissive? But in her heart and soul is a slave? The only thing keeping her ENTIRE life from being controlled is circumstance....children, the need for each to hold a job, you know, real life. A situation where in some instances the submissive/slave needs to make decisions simply because Master/Dom is not there for various reasons, work, kids, etc.

However, it is the wish for each, Master/Dom and Submissive/Slave, for the Dominant to have absolute control and if the life circumstances allowed for it, they would go there in a heartbeat, without a look back or blink of an eye.

So what does that mean? Because of life she is not a slave? Or because it her heart's wish and desire that she is?

Respectfully,

Gabrielle

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 11:49:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabrielle

Here is my question: Suppose one, by general opinion appears to be submissive? But in her heart and soul is a slave? The only thing keeping her ENTIRE life from being controlled is circumstance....children, the need for each to hold a job, you know, real life. A situation where in some instances the submissive/slave needs to make decisions simply because Master/Dom is not there for various reasons, work, kids, etc.

However, it is the wish for each, Master/Dom and Submissive/Slave, for the Dominant to have absolute control and if the life circumstances allowed for it, they would go there in a heartbeat, without a look back or blink of an eye.

So what does that mean? Because of life she is not a slave? Or because it her heart's wish and desire that she is?

Respectfully,

Gabrielle

Gabrielle, as you already know this will be a topic of debate even after we are all dead and gone.

I am speaking from my own point of view. Who I am.

"I have a question for everyone. After reading different posts and opinions it seems very difficult to find agreement for what it means to be submissive or slave. One common thread through all these posts are that generally, a submissive still has SOME control in her life and a slave does not. But all of it is, and should be consenual."

Actually this is not true with myself. As a submissive yes, I chose my Dominant very wisely. I did not enter into any verbal agreement to be his submissive until my rights were taken care of. My rights meaning certain things. You don't tell me I can't work..etc..etc. Certain things I need for my own sanity. Aside from the fact where would I be if he happened to die?

So upon submission, no I do not have any other rights that we had not disucssed prior.
Make sense?

"Here is my question: Suppose one, by general opinion appears to be submissive? But in her heart and soul is a slave? The only thing keeping her ENTIRE life from being controlled is circumstance....children, the need for each to hold a job, you know, real life. A situation where in some instances the submissive/slave needs to make decisions simply because Master/Dom is not there for various reasons, work, kids, etc."

Here I think you need the ultimate definition of the terms. Which as we already know will never be agree'd upon.

Perhaps their definition of a slave does indeed mean having control? Perhaps he has a very demanding job so he orders her to do such things? Does that make her less of a slave?
Less of a sub? In my mind being a slave does not mean you are brain dead. It does'nt mean all control of everything is gone. It means control of what the Dominant tells you to is gone. Just depends on how sadistic the Dominant is..if he is an abuser, etc.

That is my take on the question anyway..or should I say the answer?

(in reply to Gabrielle)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 1:04:04 PM

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I let people define themselves.

I don't try to come up with labels to apply to them - rather I allow them to tell me what they feel they are.

If they define themselves as slave - but it isn'y what *I* consider to be a slave - I don't care. Unless I am considering playing or sceneing or developing a relationship with that particular person - I don't give a damn what they term or define themselves as or what their partner calls them. That's their deal.

I might ask questions or clarify what they mean or why they use a term differently than I might apply it - but that is more about me understanding a bit how others view things, and why they view them in that manner that they do.

If I am interested in developing something with someone, or plan on scening them for an extended period of time, then it's important for me to consider compatablity issues, and seeing where things lie between us - which calls for matching definitions and basic philsophies and schools of thought and general goals.

But on the whole, I don't care one way or other if a bossy SAM that runs over their owner left and right walks around and claims they are a slave. <shrug> *I* might not see them that way, but just because they and their owner sees themself that way doesn't mean I need to or even feel a need to correct them, question, or otherwise challenge their right to use and choose whatever words, terms, or definitions they between themselves or in regard to themselves.

Way I see it - words in and of themselves can be powerful triggers. We all know this on some level. We all know people that REALLLLLLLLLLY *love* being called a slut or whore, pervert or sicko - male and female alike.
It most often isn't being voiced by someone that really thinks of them as such - or if they do, don't mean it in a bad judgment way as they enjoy that quality oin that person.

Well it's so easy when it comes to humiliation for some reason to understand that sometimes negative words are used to produce positive results in a person that enjoys that, right? I mean even some hard-core and steadfast anti-kink vanilla folks can see that as being viable and valid, and basically okay. Well, what *I* don't get is why it seems to be *so blasted difficult* to apply that to a positive term or phrase being used.

Slave is a very powerful word. It might not be accurate. It might not even be remotely true. They could be as far from a slave as you could possibly get in reality or maybe just only in *your* personal POV. Maybe, just maybe, because that word is so powerful and inherently charged with a flavour, a nuance, an atmosphere, a mindset, when it is being invoked ot used between people or applied to the person you don't think is remotely like a slave, that word is or becomes their trigger? Maybe that's a word that touches them deep in their core and psyche, hitting a trigger that gets a desired response - I just can't see that as a *bad* thing or something that *needs* to be either challenged or corrected.

So yanno maybe *your* definition doesn't match with theirs - but the word produces a result that is desired, or even needed to the people that use it. Personally, I just think .. RIGHT ON! MORE POWER TO THEM! lol

I don't understand why people want language to be so set and static - it never will be that way and it never has been. Definitions are added and changed ALL the time. They always HAVE been - language is a continuously evolving thing - it's never going to sit down and go well you know - it can ONLY mean blah blah blah - cuz yanno it's really only a matter of time before it means something else.

Who am I to challenge someone's right to use a trigger that has meaning and purpose and they feel is needed or wanted? If their trigger includes or is part of using the term *slave* in a manner I wouldn't in *my* personal life - so be it - if it works for them and they are happy with it, I couldn't give a shit about it one way or the other as that is their relationship, their business, and THEIR call to make - not mine.

So I guess I'm saying that if someone wants to use the term slave - then as far as I'm concerned they are a slave in their lives. When it comes to interacting with me on a level where we might develop into something other than friends, we can cross that bridge and see where the other is standing. In some ways I'm willing to allow a redefining of the way I mean a term, phrase or word, with a particular person when I am using it in regard to them or to them when it is a casual setting.

It's no sweat off my back. <shrug>

~ShadeDiva

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(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 1:06:32 PM

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if a master is involved in a 24/7 realtionsship with a slave then he will take into consideration the every day life requirements she may have in his dailey direction to her as to behaviour and actions in his absance . In all aspects of life one cna generaly give direction based on the individual and likley occurances if they have the understanding to d so.

It is not my beliefethat one should consider haveing a slave in a 24/7/365 unless they them self are able to support mentaly emotionaly as well as financialy the situation thus allowing her to live fully as a 24/7/365 slave should

To this is the events and actions that could be tollerable to most to occure arround children such things a being cufed 24/7 and collared cna be done by actions when needed not requireing actual cuffs but instead a form of mental restraint thus being acceptable to as that inviorment. ith respect to dress then that cna be addressed by clothing allowing access easiley as apposed to total nudity. The point is in any situation there are ways if one is inventive enough to allow them to occureforthem to occure weather vailed or not the concept of slave and controle is not physical for it is a far more mental state

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 1:08:48 PM

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a slave is as i hvae defined and is by many totaly dependent in all things with out condition on the wishes and desires as wel las direction ofthe master a sub is able to set her own limits and determination in many aspects

simpley put a slave ahs no choices a sub does simple as that

(in reply to baddestca)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 1:17:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: baddestca
a slave is as i hvae defined and is by many totaly dependent in all things with out condition on the wishes and desires as wel las direction ofthe master a sub is able to set her own limits and determination in many aspects

simpley put a slave ahs no choices a sub does simple as that

I guess I'd qualify that as being your opinion, as it isn't necessarily a *law* or the *only* way to view such things.

~ShadeDiva

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(in reply to baddestca)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 1:25:07 PM

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A sub is a sub, and a slave is a sub. What I mean by that is a sub surrenders compliance, or the act of being obedient. A slave has the same actions, but is also is the property of another like a servant under domination.

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(in reply to Gabrielle)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 1:57:53 PM

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Again Marissa, that would just be your opinion and definitions, not facts. The fact is, we define ourselves as we feel we are, not how others think it.

I see a submissive as one who does things willingly that they have agreed to (IE submitting). As a slave, I do as Master chooses, but it is not always willing, nor does it have to be. I am a slave to men, but not to all men. Only those who are strong enough to be able to control me. BTW, that does not mean I am difficult to control, just that I am capable taking care of myself and my life, and for me to give up that control I need to know he is equally as capable.

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RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 5:01:33 PM

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Gabrielle
It is one thing for sumone to choose to be a totally commited slave.
children however have no choice but to live with their parents and
for this reason those whom were NOT slaves befor the children were
born and have not discovered thier place in the Lifestyle till after the
kids were in place cannot put these children into a Master/slave 24/7
relationship because of current laws that would concider it a nonconcensual situation as children cannot make the same decisions
as adults into this life which is Alternative not to mention their other
parent might fight for custody so that the children are not put into this
lifestyle when They were NOT brought up in it or Born with in this life which is a totally different situation and a acceptable one when They are brought up and are taught what it is that all with in a House live and beleive and yes I agree with baddestca that a slave whom has other obligations outside of their own selfs allready in place cannot commit to sumthing totally hence would not be concidered a slave any how just by definition in My Opinion. The Dominant should have the ability to run Their Homes and households but this does not nessisaraly mean that the Dominant is the primary bread winner all tho They can be if They so choose but with in My Home for sample every one has Their jobs and chores to tend to regardless if it is employment for income for the HOUSE or actuall work with in and around the House no one is with out the structure of work at all times and every one with in the Home is responcible for raising and watching over and directing any children that are with in the Home with the Dominants in charge of how They will be raised up and what rules they will follow as well if They are in the ALternate Home from the beginning. I have had children in My Home All My Life and I as a child grew up in a Alternate Home however I will not take in slaves whom have the obligation of children unless they are the children of a Master or Mistress whom have been brought up with in the Lifestyle from day one, other wise there are way to many legalities that would inter fear in one trying to be a slave and a Dominant and to many skeletons in the closet that will come out and scare Ya! LOL My Opinion

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 6:18:00 PM

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This is what I believe, a definition is a fact and a opinion is a opinion. Not knocking anyone elses opinion.

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RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 7:13:54 PM

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I am not knocking your opinions. Your comments were stated as if they were fact, and I was merely pointing out that they are only opinions. Trust me, those I *knock* know it... :)

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(in reply to GoddessMarissa)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 9:57:17 PM

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One of the things I like most about this venue/life is that you get to make your own definitions, your own choices; you get to make it what you want it to be.

Do you define yourself as a slave? That's good enough for me. There is no requirement that you and I or anybody else agree. How you define yourself is your right (and the right of the person/people you are involved with) alone.

Who cares how others opine? They don't look in the mirror and see your face every morning.

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 4/18/2004 12:57:47 AM >

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(in reply to Gabrielle)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/17/2004 10:52:29 PM

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so what is being sad here is in this life style we get to choose the meaning of things. That isto say what dominant submissive slave mistress and the rest are for us and there si not any general set deffination of it understood universaly by the community.,

The meanings of catigories and types of persons should not be open for determination but instead set in stone so as to avoide confusion

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/18/2004 5:15:45 AM

GabriellesDaddy

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(This is Gabrielle; I accidently posted under Daddy's ID)

I really appreciate everyone's input.
Let me address the children issue: They are not exposed to bondage or humiliation or anything intense along those lines. They see only the continual respect for my Master/Daddy/Husband/Best Friend. They see he is head of household, problem solver, supporter of family, and decision maker. They see that he and I are a unified front and they can not 'carry their case' to the other parent if they do not like what one of us has said.

Now, to "slave/subbie". I like to call myself a slave, because in my heart and in my mind, I have no rights other than the ones he allows me. I have no room for argument and no limits. Daddy on the other hand, refuses to call me a slave because he just doesn't like the sound of it. He calls me his baby girl and submissive and maintains that I have ultimate say in all we do. If I do refuse something, he will honor that, but also see it as an area that needs improvement and more training eventually. (For the record, I haven't refused anything in over 6 months that wasn't handled at that very moment to lead me to submission on that issue.)

He knows I like to think of myself as a slave, but refuses to give me that label. In his mind, if I were a slave, I would even have to tolerate it if he became abusive and doesn't wish that for me. He is the first to admit, that if he were ever to abuse his dominance over me, I should have him arrested.

So who's to say really? As a good girl, I will take what He gives me, and be what he calls me.

< Message edited by GabriellesDaddy -- 4/18/2004 5:16:41 AM >

(in reply to baddestca)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/18/2004 7:16:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: baddestca

so what is being sad here is in this life style we get to choose the meaning of things. That isto say what dominant submissive slave mistress and the rest are for us and there si not any general set deffination of it understood universaly by the community.,

The meanings of catigories and types of persons should not be open for determination but instead set in stone so as to avoide confusion

Good luck getting that to happen baddestca. As for "set in stone", check the dictionary. There's NO SUCH THING as *a* submissive, or *a* dominant. Submissive and dominant are adjectives, not nouns. When we take words and change them to suit our purposes, the meanings become rather elastic, since we're making them up. You're not likely to get people to agree on standardization, since we all come from different experiences, backgrounds and mindsets.

-- Sherri

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(in reply to baddestca)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 4/28/2004 1:59:50 PM

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My sub/slave and I are new to this lifestyle so for him the NAME means so much. He sees this as telling him what is expected of him and how he should be treated. I prefer that we blend the two to find what combo works best for us. It seems that if everything were etched in stone and you could only live by the rules of the titles you use then what would be the point. It is by experience that you learn and grow to appreciate the different aspects of this life.

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 5/3/2004 7:57:01 PM

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quote:

I don't try to come up with labels to apply to them - rather I allow them to tell me what they feel they are.

Mike Myers once stated to Tia Carrera "Was it Kierkegaard, or Dick Van Patten, who once said "if you label me, you nullify me."

The question in my mind is not whether the person is a slave, a submissive, or whatever. The question in my mind is whether I can build a relationship with this person as they truly are.

Sinergy

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(in reply to iwillserveu)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 5/4/2004 10:49:10 AM

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Well I supose that if eats like a duck, and walks like a duck,and quacks like a duck it could be an eagle,i guess

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Subbie or slave? Lets beat the dead horse again - 5/9/2004 7:16:47 AM

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It seems that the question is not what is slave what is submissive, but more how do you achieve the submission you require to feel the slave.

With children this a very difficult task as many of the traditional reinforcements are not there, chains, naked, collar, etc. as well as children see everything, and they tell everything.

Work is an additional problem you cannot kneel and ask your boss if it would please him for you to get him coffee.

However there are some ways to achieve this, your Master could require that you plan the events of your next day and request permission for each item in advance, tedious but eaier with time and practice. Things like requiring you act as much the slave at all times as is possible within the structure of your job, speaking with respect to free persons, address etc
requiring you find a way to perform service to others, dress, it is a lot to deal with.

If it is what you both want start with small pieces and add on as you adapt. Do no try to go from split responsibilities to I only do what you allow it is to much. See what works and build from that. Start by simply asking to do the things you do now, like to go to work and perform your job.

Now on the subject of slave or submissive, this is to easy. If you have any choice not given to you, you are not a slave, period. It is not practicable in this society, if in your heart you wish to not have that choice then give it up and you may be slave, do not be surprised if you are no longer a part of this society.

Z

(in reply to slaveseeker)

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