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33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 5:32:45 AM

Master96

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“At least 1100 were killed in Lebanon, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers.”

Human Rights Watch link:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

Wikipedia’s link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana

I want to know what people think.

Strategically and morally, who won?

Master96,

< Message edited by Master96 -- 8/25/2006 5:33:38 AM >

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 5:38:42 AM

LadyEllen

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No one wins a war. They survive it.
E

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 5:56:18 AM

meatcleaver

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Hezzbollah won though not militarily but they have come out of the war with greater support and influence and they have destroyed the invincible mystic of the Israeli army that had previously been felt by the Arabs.

Israel with its outrageous over reaction and its obvious tactics of terrorizing the Lebanese civilian population and hitting none strategic civilian infrastructure rather than concentrating on Hezzbollah, have been the moral losers. Whether as has been reported that they were influenced by the Bush administration or not or whether it was the need for Ehud Olmert to prove he was a hard man on the mould of Sharon, this war was a big mistake. For many outside Israel and the USA, Israel has been guilty of war crimes which many NGO have accused it of.

Yes, Hezzbollah have not been innocent but they were constantly branded as terrorists by Israel and the US so people never expected more of them, even though they are an indigenous Lebanese resistance movement. However, the tally of civilian dead is hard to argue with and the Israelis killed far more and that is its moral burden.

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 7:25:44 AM

CrappyDom

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Iran won and fired not a shot.

Good generals win battles by fighting well, great ones win wars by choosing their battles, brilliant ones win without firing a shot.

Militarily, Hezbollah got their ass handed to them but that wasn't the point. Hezbollah appeared to the masses to resist Israel longer than the combined arms of the entire arab world. They, and Iran are now the heroes of the Arab world and Israel no longer appears omnipotent.

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 10:26:03 AM

Archer

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Isreal lost the PR battle here mostly because they forgot one basic thing, 1,000 rockets and numerous homocide bombers fired into Isreal is forgetable, it happened everyday pretty much since they pulled out of Lebanon last time, so it's not NEWS as a long build up to the "Over"-reaction.

Now certainly there is enough historic bad blood that Who started it has been lost. Sooner or later though one has to say Hey we're here now and we can't go back and start over what are we gonna do now to solve the problem.

The Two state solution has been the only option that anyone has come up with that is anywhere near workable. Isreal bought into it half of the Arab world bought into it, only a few hold outs won't let it happen, and still think that War ad infanitum until Isreal is pushed into the sea, is the only acceptable option.

The whole idea of war without civilian casualties is a panacea outlook, we've (the collective western world) grown to believe that war can be so discrete that only soldiers should be killed is an actual possibility.

The fact is that compared to the civilian casualties that would have happened using the old technology of the 1960's even these numbers are actually very low.
Not that civilian deaths are good or that they should be considered as acceptable numbers, but they should be looked at in the light of What was nessisary and could be expected.

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 11:17:00 AM

NorthernGent

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They will both see this as a victory of sorts.

a) It has been a PR disaster for Israel. Internationally, they appear to be the aggressors and quite possibly Hezbollah have gained further support for their cause (difficult to say by how much as the assumption is that those who didn't already support Hezbollah are now predisposed to because of their part in a war that ultimately caused the deaths of a lot of people).

b) Israel will claim this as a victory because they have smashed most of South Lebanon - the infrastructure and economy are now in tatters which means a neighbour that Israel has had problems with in the past is now reduced to rubble. Also, what have the Iranians gained from their funding of Hezbollah? Not a great deal. It has been a wasted investment.

On balance, I will say Israel have gained more from this than Hezbollah or Iran. Ok, the Israelis could not destroy Hezbollah but was this really possible (given the nature of Hezbollah) and was this even the aim of the Israelis? Despite the funding from Iran there has been absolutely no dent made in the Israeli machine. In other words, it should be clear to the Iranians that if they want to take on the combined power of Israel/US military capability then they will have to come up with far more than what they have done to date.

Ultimately though, neither of them are morally right and they're trapped in a cycle of tit-for-tat violence.

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 2:34:06 PM

FangsNfeet

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You have one religion who is gearing up for the GREAT JYHAD. Some are so ready for it they feel the need to start the war themselves. You then have the other religion that's not thinking it's the end of the world. Hell, the Jews have yet to accept a Messiah. Can you have an end before your for told messiah arrives? Either way, you have two sects of people who feel that they should have all or nothing in what is rightfully theres.

Anyhow, there will never be peace between these factions. I'd like to see all funds cutt of on both sides. Let the battles happen and winner take all. Sometimes you just have to let people fight it out untill there is a winner. It's what they both want to do so why should anyone stop them?

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 2:47:57 PM

NorthernGent

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Fangs,

Let's not get into the realms of fantasy. It is blatantly wrong to say that a whole religion is gearing up for Jihad when to the vast majority of Muslims the term Jihad means "a struggle" i.e. a struggle in life (possibly a struggle to open the dog food for example and the dog is biting your ankles off because he's a big fat beast who needs food on the hour, every hour). Jihad does not mean holy war to the vast majority of Muslims so to say a whole religion is gearing up for great Jihad means they're gearing up for life and it's struggles effectively (as opposed to holy war).

There will be peace between these factions because at some point they will realise that diplomacy is the only option. The problem is how many will have to die to get to this point? You can look at every conflict in history and they have come to an end. Some have been quick wars and some have been protracted cycles of violence - they all end and the world moves on to another conflict and theatre of disputes.

Regards

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/25/2006 9:51:44 PM

FangsNfeet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

There will be peace between these factions because at some point they will realise that diplomacy is the only option. The problem is how many will have to die to get to this point? You can look at every conflict in history and they have come to an end. Some have been quick wars and some have been protracted cycles of violence - they all end and the world moves on to another conflict and theatre of disputes.
Regards

Like I said, sometimes you just have to let people fight it out. Currently, both religions predict that they shall both fight one another untill the end of time. The way it looks now, it's as if both sects have coded in there genes to continue fighting each other. They continue to breed and teach to fight as if they are pit bulls geared up for a tournement. So who do you have your money on?

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RE: 33 days of war... - 8/26/2006 2:20:42 AM

NorthernGent

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My money is on both sets of people pressuring their Governments and paramilitary factions into ending the senseless slaughter. My understanding of Israelis is that this generation is nowhere near as orthodox as previous generations and many were opposed to their Governments actions. I personally don't believe the majority of Lebanese or Israelis want to kill each other. Once they find a way to reflect this in their Governments then it will come to an end.

One thing that is certain is the only answer for Israel is diplomacy.

Regards

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