RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school

RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (Full Version)

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MissTlTTYMilk -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 4:25:54 AM)
I dont see having a dress code as preparing for the work force nor do i view it as a random rule to punish students. If you ever worked with teenagers, you will know they indeed have an accurate understanding of what the dress code entails. By suspending one day with the option of having it remove from their records, the school, in fact, effectively enforced the rules and may perhaps avoided excessive future dress code infractions. We have not seen the school repeatedly suspend kids since that news report so it must have worked. The less they (the administrators and faculty) have to deal with this sort of discipline.....then they can concentrate on education, but ignoring rules would lead to complete chaos. It is very tedious to enforced the rules perhaps, but rules in school are not random. Discipline is needed in schools, and a school being wishy washy on dealing with infractions will only create bigger problems in this type of setting. A school or a teacher who sets a precedence of following rules and behavior in the beginning of the year have far less trouble with the frequency of occurrences with these infractions and rules in the future. If the school would have given a verbal warning.....most likely, the problem would have remain the same or increased.

MissTlTTYMilk -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 5:07:16 AM)
Here are few links related to dress code: specifically school uniforms and resulting school safety: http://www.middleweb.com/INCASEUniforms.html http://www.gate.net/~rwms/UniformBrunRock.html http://www.aprod.org/myths.htm http://www2.selu.edu/Academics/Education/EDF600/swartz.htm http://www.members.tripod.com/rockqu/uniform.htm http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_cosa.asp?TRACKID=&DID=33689&CID=485

Sasy -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 5:25:31 AM)
I am not even gonna read this because many times this stuff just infuriates me. My youngest child is a bit out of the mold for most ( hell they all may be these days) ( ADHD extreme non medicated and has a learning disablity) Well I am okay with uniforms so to speak but last year she was suspended 38 times for not tucking in her shirt cripes poloshirts are not made to be tucked in and can ANYONE explain to me how her having her shirt tucked in is efecting her learning or any one around her alility to learn ? When she is confortable she learns better

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 7:34:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sasy I am not even gonna read this because many times this stuff just infuriates me. My youngest child is a bit out of the mold for most ( hell they all may be these days) ( ADHD extreme non medicated and has a learning disablity) Well I am okay with uniforms so to speak but last year she was suspended 38 times for not tucking in her shirt cripes poloshirts are not made to be tucked in and can ANYONE explain to me how her having her shirt tucked in is efecting her learning or any one around her alility to learn ? When she is confortable she learns better The same reason some doms tell their slaves NEVER to cross their legs or put their knees together. Does it function in any way to make them better able to serve? No. But it gives them a consistent mindset of authority, and is an easy, quick, simple way to make a rule and enforce it. Dress codes are really nothing but arbitrary rules to make some people feel in control of other people. And the "decency wars" have been going on far longer than our modern school system. A generation ago it was indecent for females to wear jeans and males to have long hair. It's a constant battle that doesn't need to be at all.

perverseangelic -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 8:05:33 AM)
I think that our courts need to swing back toward actually giving high school students civil rights. I support reasonable dress codes, but this is excessive.

philosophy -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 9:04:42 AM)
"can ANYONE explain to me how her having her shirt tucked in is efecting her learning or any one around her alility to learn ?" "The same reason some doms tell their slaves NEVER to cross their legs or put their knees together. Does it function in any way to make them better able to serve? No. But it gives them a consistent mindset of authority, and is an easy, quick, simple way to make a rule and enforce it." ...and this is the problem...what are schools for? Whose agenda ought they serve? Years ago, my mother was called to school and was told that while i had done nothing wrong i was failing to conform.......my mum just said 'good, I didn't raise him to be a sheep'........nowadays, in some quarters, that would be defined as bad parenting. If a school is good for anything it must be child centred, not authority or business or even parent centred. Schools are part of our promise to the next generation, not a way to turn out more right thinking sheep.

HollyS -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 9:23:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The same reason some doms tell their slaves NEVER to cross their legs or put their knees together. Does it function in any way to make them better able to serve? No. But it gives them a consistent mindset of authority, and is an easy, quick, simple way to make a rule and enforce it. A dress code is not a mindless exercise in dominance. I am reminded of the trend over the past 5 years or so to end "Casual Fridays" in many professional offices, because it's been discovered that as people dress more casually, their work performance goes down. A Google search can turn up more information on this, but here's one place to read up on it: "Sinking your Success" But I digress... quote: Dress codes are really nothing but arbitrary rules to make some people feel in control of other people. And the "decency wars" have been going on far longer than our modern school system. A generation ago it was indecent for females to wear jeans and males to have long hair. It's a constant battle that doesn't need to be at all. As it relates to schools, dress codes are certainly about control but they are definately not arbitrary. The problem of gang attire is very real and kids wearing readily idenitifiable clothing serve as a direct "in your face" to opposing factions, often resulting in violence during lunch or in the halls. Last year a teacher at my husband's HS got kicked in the head by a kid with steel-toed boots as the teacher was trying to seperate a fight -- one of the fighters' buddies saw what was happening and came to help out, putting the teacher in the hospital. What kids wear can disrupt the environment and make school a miserable place for everyone. It's not about the school trying to stamp out individuality or stop culture wars by outlawing Abercrombie wear -- it's about safety and making school a place where people learn with as few obstacles as possible. Teachers are expected to dress reasonably - the same standards are being applied to kids to a far lesser degree (teachers may not wear jeans, t-shirts, etc...). There are no uniforms for any of the Hammond City High Schools, unlike some of the city grade schools which have gone to a "Uniformity of Color" dress code. Here is the exact code as it appears in the Hammond Schools Student/Parent Guide for 2006: Student Dress Code Students will not be permitted to dress in a manner that will substantially disrupt the educational function, nor will students be permitted to dress in a manner which is unsafe or which presents a health hazard. More specifically, the School City of Hammond reserves the right – and, indeed, has the obligation – to prohibit at school and at school-related activities any student dress which is a disruptive factor or presents a health or safety hazard. No effort will be made to list all the “don’ts,” but the following few will help avoid confusion: • Caps/hats and jackets/coats may not be worn in the classroom. The School City of Hammond reserves the right to prohibit any student dress which is a disruptive factor or presents a health or safety hazard. • Tank tops are not to be worn in place of shirts or blouses. • Shoes must be worn. Beach or shower thongs are not appropriate. • Halter-type, backless, or bare-midriff attire cannot be worn. Shirts or any other attire which is obscene, vulgar, or suggestive in nature are prohibited. • Body piercing rings that may pose a safety hazard are prohibited. (Tongue rings, for example, could be swallowed.) Regardless of what you think of the restrictions, the school decided --- on the weight of objective evidence --- that laying down some basic rules for what is appropriate school wear doesn't impinge on student personal expression while at the same time stopping certain problems before they begin. It's much like what I'm told when I come to work: the workplace is not the beach, it's not the mall, it's not your home. School isn't any of those places either. It's where people come to learn and dressing appropriately for a given environment/situation is a success skill that will serve students later in life. ~Holly

philosophy -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 9:31:01 AM)
......thing is, Holly, nothing in your argument applies to a kid constantly in trouble for not tucking a polo shirt in. "Students will not be permitted to dress in a manner that will substantially disrupt the educational function, nor will students be permitted to dress in a manner which is unsafe or which presents a health hazard" No-one sane would argue with that as a code, but where in that is it important to tuck a shirt in? "the workplace is not the beach, it's not the mall, it's not your home. School isn't any of those places either." No, its not a workplace in the same sense. At school it is ok to get 7 out of 10 on a test, next time you may get 8. A factory worker though had better get close to ten out of ten right, every day. The point is, a factory is all about outputting a product, what is a school about?

millisande -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 9:45:24 AM)
quote: what is a school about? in honesty? these days, it is about putting out product. nothing more, nothing less, with the exception of the occasional good staff who decides that the children are more important. with all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free, bina, of Wolf

BlueHnS -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 10:28:55 AM)
I don't think school is about putting out product. I've lived in several different school districts, so I'm not speaking from an isolated perspective. School on the whole is about babysitting, making sure the worst of the lot dont do physical harm to themselves or others. Very few schools make it thier business to actually TEACH any more. They specialize in focusing on giving enough information to pass standardized tests. In reference to tucking vs. not tucking shirts I could personally care less either way I've actually argued both sides of this. In the case of Uniform Schools, a tucked shirt is simply part of the uniform, whether assumed or written into the dress code. In theory, presenting ones self in a certain matter is supposed to instill a mindset that the student is there ready and willing to learn. If the shirt is untucked and NEVER rises above the waistline of the pants I can not find any reason why a non uniform school would make shirts be tucked. Either way it's not enforcable if not WRITTEN into the dress code. A few years ago when my oldest was a junior we got a new principal. The year before the school had implemented school ID's. I could always tell if the principal had attempted to lord his status over my son ( yep, the principal thought title is all that is necessary for respect) because my son would come with his ID attached to his shoelaces. It was his way personal way of saying kiss my ass to the man without getting me involved. Of course the next year they changed it to say it had to be worn above the waist and my son came up with some pretty creative ways to wear it then too. Now they issue lanyards ...

HollyS -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 10:33:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ......thing is, Holly, nothing in your argument applies to a kid constantly in trouble for not tucking a polo shirt in. You're right, there isn't, because the thread was about what happened at this one particular Northwest Indiana HS. looks up at thread title, just to be sure None of the kids involved in the 128 suspensions got in trouble for not tucking their shirts in - they got suspended for wearing things not allowed by the school dress code. I can't speak to your specific situation, only about what's going on at Morton HS and how it applies to dress codes in general. If you want to talk about what they chose to allow/not allow, we can do that but "tucked in shirts" isn't on their list. And I don't have all the information about your child's school and the reasons behind making a tucked in shirt an issue to have an educated opinion. What I can answer though, is this: quote: The point is, a factory is all about outputting a product, what is a school about? A school is about being a place where people come to learn. Not fight, fuck, deal drugs, sleep, surf the net, or any number of other things. Learning can be thought of as a product (and I may start another thread on that). Also, factories are not the only places with dress codes. I'm a therapist and in my office there are rules about how I may or may not dress. Same for my husband the history teacher and my Sir the attorney. We dress in ways that convey an image of competence and seriousness about what we do. If I show up in flip-flops to work, I will hear about it and certainly written up (if it's a repeated offense). Can you imagine, perhaps, being a man and trying to speak with your therapist about your issues with her in a belly-baring t-shirt and mini-skirt? What would you think if your attorney showed up for court in torn jeans and an untucked polo? The school in this case is trying to teach students that what they wear speaks loudly to their character as well as head off discipline/conduct problems before they occur. I think it's a reasonable lesson to teach kids that will serve them all their lives if they take it to heart. But I may be in the minority here... ~Holly

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 10:57:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HollyS The school in this case is trying to teach students that what they wear speaks loudly to their character as well as head off discipline/conduct problems before they occur. I think it's a reasonable lesson to teach kids that will serve them all their lives if they take it to heart. But I may be in the minority here... ~Holly The problem is that wearing particular clothing has NOTHING to do with discipline/misconduct. And anyone who thinks teens aren't aware of clothing and how their appearance will affect their interactions with others doesn't know much about teens. We could (and should) throw out every dress code in the world tomorrow and teens would still wear clothes and be HIGHLY sensitized to how their appearance is taken to others. I agree- teaching children about how their appearance and clothing shapes others impressions is important. But dress codes don't do that anymore than laws against oral and anal sex teach people that having oral and anal sex is wrong and improper, or will teach people how to have sex properly. As I said in my first reply, if there are rules in place, and rules are broken, then consequences should be enforced and everyone's learned a good lesson. I just happen to think THESE rules in THIS context shouldn't be in place at all. If you want to talk about private corporations employing adults and private schools, that's a different context.

pahunkboy -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 11:04:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlueHnS ... School on the whole is about babysitting, making sure the worst of the lot dont do physical harm to themselves or others. Very few schools make it thier business to actually TEACH any more. They specialize in focusing on giving enough information to pass standardized tests. .... BINGO! it isnt fair to the kids who WANT to learn.

MissyRane -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 11:56:13 AM)
thank god for Iceland (yup icelanders make sense every once in a while :P ) ..I even show up on my pyjamas at school if I feel like it [:D][:D][:D]

truesub4u -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 3:07:44 PM)
<Fast Reply> I went through this last year with my oldest at school. I got a call requesting I bring my daughter another shirt because 1 teacher thought the heartagram on the front of her shirt was a pentagram. The T-shirt was a rock concert t-shirt from the rock group H.I.M. On the front was a heartagram... on the back had tour information. Now the school handbook specified...NO DRUGS.. NO BOOZE.. NO WEAPONS... NO FOUL LANGUAGE...allowed on the t-shirts. Now this idiot that called himself a math teacher told me I was stupid for not know what a pentagram was. I know a pentagram is a star within a circle... the sign of wiccan and paganism.... (my oldest is wiccan) On her shirt was a Heart in a triangle in a circle. (If you know who H.I.M. is you know what I mean) This teacher insisted it was a pentagram... a sign of blood sacrifice and murder. Well after I got done laughing.. I told her that she could continue to wear the shirt. They said if she did.. she would be suspended. I said fine.. then suspend every student in school today wearing a rock concert t-shirt... cross necklace... anything religious... anything ANYONE might find offensive.. (the teacher was offended because he seen it as a pentagram). Well the principle called the school board... the school board called their lawyers.... 45 mins later... my daughter was sent back to classes wearing the same shirt. They were in violation of allowing my daughter her rights to freedom of speech... and self expression. Specially when nothing in the dress code book stated not a thing about rock concert t-shirts. And even if it was a pentagram and not a heartagram.. she should be allowed to express herself just like someone wearing a cross.. or star of david. It's knowing the right time to make a stand... and knowing all the rules. These students may of been trying to make a stand.. but they went about it the wrong way. They should be able to wear what they want that makes them comfortable...without breaking the rules. Tank tops not allowed was and is a stupid rule. I can understand the shorts and skirts having to go down so far. And I do agree with this rule. I would also like to see the boys having to wear pants that actually fit their asses... not their thighs... with their boxers showing. But then I would be in voilation of allowing them to express themselves. Like I told me girls... learn the rules.. abide by them...and when they're violated.. stand your ground and don't back down....... Oh and as for blaming the parents.. bullshit... you can send your kid out the door wearing one thing... they get down the road and change clothes.... Everyones so quick to blame parents. Damn goverment have taken away the rights of parents.... but that's another arguement all together.....

HollyS -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 3:27:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The problem is that wearing particular clothing has NOTHING to do with discipline/misconduct. I'd really need to see some hard data to support this statement, because I can show you many studies that show exactly the opposite. The truth is that wearing gang colors -- especially en masse -- creates a culture of fear and intimidation with a school. It's a fact, which is why schools go to such lengths to try and clamp down on it whenever possible. Do kids work hard to creatively get around the rules? Hell yes. In discussing this thread, D. (my husband) reminded me of the beginning of last school year, when "apparantly the second day of school was gang day, only the teachers didn't get the memo." He and a fellow teacher walked into the lunch room to find about 40 well-known gang members/discipline problems all dressed identically in white t-shirts and jeans, standing together in a group. They all moved together, sat together, and were a "presence" together. Did they break any dress code rules? No. Were they silently communicating intimidation and marking ownership of the lunchroom? Absolutely. If you're interested, you can ask me later what the administration response to this event was... quote: We could (and should) throw out every dress code in the world tomorrow and teens would still wear clothes and be HIGHLY sensitized to how their appearance is taken to others. The administration doesn't care how kids use clothes to indicate status or style or taste or benign group affiliation. They care about eliminating variables that lead directly to disruption of the learning process. If you don't agree that there is such a thing as a too-short skirt, inappropriate words/graphics for shirts or other clothes issues that create issues in a school, then I would say with all due respect that you really don't understand how school environments work. quote: I agree- teaching children about how their appearance and clothing shapes others impressions is important. But dress codes don't do that anymore than laws against oral and anal sex teach people that having oral and anal sex is wrong and improper, or will teach people how to have sex properly. This isn't a very good analogy, but in using it there is a big part that you've left out: modeling. Not only does the school tell students how they should not dress, but the rest of the school environment spends time modeling appropriate dress and explaining why it is important. The school wants everyone to be able to learn and clothing has an effect on that happening, so teachers and the administration show them every day what is appropriate for the environment while at the same time also showing them what is not appropriate. Something else that no one has mentioned is that kids are very accepting of uniforms in other contexts - they happily don standard clothing for activities like football, ballet and scouting. Standardization says "I belong to this group," which is why gangs adopt colors and why showing them in school is so provocative. This is also why many schools have gone to uniforms. Besides eliminating issues of policing skirt length or cleavage or gang colors or having one's underwear showing, uniforms also contribute to a sense of identity with the school community (though the school in question here simply laid down some standards for all forms of street wear rather than designate a uniform). In this case, all the school wanted was for discipline problems to go down. It will be interesting to see whether the crackdown has the desired effect -- god knows there will be enough people watching to see the results during the school year. ~Holly

HollyS -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 3:37:22 PM)
Two things here: quote: ORIGINAL: truesub4u It's knowing the right time to make a stand... and knowing all the rules. These students may of been trying to make a stand.. but they went about it the wrong way. I totally agree with you - there is a time and place to stand up for principle. However, people keep trying to make this out to be some sort of principled protest, students standing up for their rights in the face of an oppressive administration. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was no organization, no "standing up for what I believe is right" - it was purely a matter of kids showing up in the same styles they did last year, unwilling to believe that the rules had changed or would truly be enforced. Now those truths are no longer in doubt. Let's see if it results in a student or students challenging the code on "principle." But on day one of school? It was simple stupidity and denial - nothing more. quote: I would also like to see the boys having to wear pants that actually fit their asses... not their thighs... with their boxers showing.But then I would be in voilation of allowing them to express themselves. This truly baffles me. When did it become a mandate that everyone be allowed to "express themselves" in whatever fashion they choose, wherever they choose, whenever they choose? Especially kids, who are still learning appropriate judgement and don't yet have all the skills to make the best choices. Maybe the debate should be whether it is the purpose of the school environment to allow unrestrained self-expression of students... any takers? ~Holly

MissTlTTYMilk -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 4:08:06 PM)
Okay i got the "go ahead" from the Original poster to somewhat hijack His thread. Well i would guess that "tucking in" is more of an issue with schools having a uniform regulation as oppose to knowingly violating the dress codes mentioned above. With everything, it has it's pros and cons. The uniforms may benefit the whole as far as security, economic equality, avoiding gang violence, etc....but definitely can have drawbacks. Since my community supports uniforms for public schools, for the most part the actual parents and students involved are for the uniform regulations. How do i know, because i have had the opportunity to ask both parents and high students in this area. The school board's decision came with student/parent input and is well documented. Does everyone agree? Obviously not, but parents had an initial "say so" here prior to the surrounding school districts regulating uniforms and the regulations approval had overwhelming consent. However, there are definitely disadvantages that can arise with some children with who might have a weight or other medical issues particularly with the tucked in shirt so the argument continues. However, i am not aware of a child in my area being actually suspended for an untucked shirt, and i suppose that varies from district to district. Of course, this is not a question about school uniforms...i just brought it up now and earlier as it seemed to be welcomed solution in my community. Again i dont view the rules in my school district as unnecessary. i cannot think of a specific school rule in my area that i dont support or at least have an understanding on why it is enforced. Since undeniably quite a few people here are opposed to the dress code or standardizing uniforms in public schools--my question is: Are there any parents who also view any other rule or rules in school as entirely unneccessary? i dont mean to hijack (well i do with consent of the OPoster--i should clarify the Op said go for it and did not express agreement).....i am genuinely curious about what other rules that parents disagree with in regards to their district's rules and regulations.... for example, does perhaps announcing a moment of silence, reciting the pledge of allegiance, restricted use of cellphones, etc., seem arbitrary as well? i'd appreciate any viewpoints and opinions on this topic.

Emperor1956 -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 10:33:14 PM)
A few random (or not so) thoughts: LA, and others who protest the regimentation/control of "dress codes": Guess what folks: We all have dress codes. And all of you follow them, so don't be hypocritical in complaining about the rules this high school introduced. The difference between the dress code at your place of work and the one in the Hammond schools is that the school code is explicit. LA, I don't remember what it is you do professionally, but I bet you don't wear the same attire to your job as you do to 1. A dungeon party or 2. A pool party. Why not? Can you honestly say that what you wear to work is your choice for comfort and utility? I doubt anyone in the modern work force can honestly claim that. I wear a suit to work almost every day -- am I a better lawyer in a suit? Probably not, but I bet my clients THINK I'm a better lawyer (and by the way, they are professionals by and large themselves who wear "uniforms" at work). We all bow to convention (except maybe that girl in Iceland, and you know what, I bet she follows RIGOROUS codes of dress too, according to culture, age, and situation). As for the "pentagram t-shirt" story, this has little to do with appropriate dress codes and a lot to do with 1) hyperreactivity to certain symbols by authorities and 2) bad judgment. Bad judgement by teacher, and frankly, by student and yes, by Mom, too. Did it really matter what t-shirt your daughter wore to school that day? And if it did matter, was it the message on the t-shirt that needed to be broadcast? A band? Come on. If the t-shirt had said "Free Tibet" or "Free Palestine" or "Support George Bush" or "Fuck the Draft" (an inside joke -- that was a famous legally challenged t-shirt once upon a time) maybe I'd accept the protest. But come on -- what really happened there was a tussle over authority for authority's sake, not a principled fight over a message. Yes, the teacher was a moron. But then again, are you really proud of wasting the resources of the school and the school board on this issue to prove the teacher was a moron, rather than having your daughter change her shirt? And finally, I do not believe that a child is sent home from school or otherwise disciplined ONLY for having her shirt untucked. Something is rotten in Iceland...and I think we are getting less than 1/2 of that tale. E.

StrongButKind -> RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school (8/29/2006 10:53:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 And finally, I do not believe that a child is sent home from school or otherwise disciplined ONLY for having her shirt untucked. Something is rotten in Iceland...and I think we are getting less than 1/2 of that tale. 38 times no less, and the mother blamed the school 38 times. One begins to suspect learning disabilities are profoundly genetic...

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