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Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/27/2006 10:29:46 PM   
prettichinadoll


Posts: 35
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline 		Once again, my curiosity got the best of me. I start to get interested in the people or a concept known as "old guard". What are those people?

Well, I was told that old guard were mostly gay leather man. They believes in rigid rituals, they have a certain way to do every things. They doesn't believe in the idea of "Limits" and "Choice" of a slave. A slave would get to make the choice once as to "serve" or "no serve". If he agrees to serve, than he would be treated as a piece of property in every aspect. He would be punished, beat up for pleasure, or sold for a pack of cigarrett.

Some said the old guard movement started during WWII, yet others believes it reach its peak after the vietnam war. Others would through me with terms like "Old guard", "the New-Old Guard", or "the New Guard"...Yet still, I have no idea who are those people, and what exactly is the "old guard" concept. So I went online hoping for some more systematic explanation, but have no luck at all. Most information I can find is people wrote about what they've seen or heard. People told me that if anyone said they know an "old guard" person, he would be lying. because You have to be like in your 80s to actually see a real old guard...well, we don't have that much of a history as BDSM community, and already we have our urban legend and myth.

That's why, as a student of history, I find the lifestyle of BDSM extremely confusing. Every one seems to have their own interpretation of everything. The most common terms such as "dominate", "slave" would have 1000 explanations if you ask 1000 different people.

So here's the question from a little subbie girl who has been in this life style for one year. Who are these "Old Guard" people and what are their ideal of a D/s relationship?

I'm always, more than willing to learn :)

Dolly


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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/27/2006 11:01:15 PM   
MasterLon


Posts: 33
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Chinadoll, My name is MasterLon, I have 45 active years in this lifestyle...I have both lectured and mentored manyam now a teacher and senior dungeon monitor in the oldest and largest bdsm club in southern california....Old Guard...were gay men coming out of the military circa late 40's early 50's. They took with them the protocols of the military changed them around some and used them added some more as time went on to thier satisfaction, this is how the protocols began for the gay leather society when they were together as one group now they are two separate entities...they were gay men coming out of the military about them being hard and cruel on thier slaves yes that is very true and not one of them would change anything, also true they would be in thier 80's and 90's today, though some are still taught the old ways most are not, like old school for heterosexual folks of yesteryear some today are what is termed old school taught but but the original old schools would be way up there in age also, I am 60 years old and I was old school taught, by my parents mostly but was also mentored by a gentleman named Sir Brian of Phoenix Arizona...yes many have their own interpretations of what they think about many things, some true some just plain funny some even ridiculous. Master/Dom, slave/submissive....it all depends on the amount of devotion between the two people and the amount of control the sub/slave gives and retains...or the amount of responsibility the Master/Dom can handle this determines what they are or who they are....they each must look within thier own heart and souls to first find themselves then when found they learn much more about themselves and the learning never ever stops. Like a true dominant is not egotistical he/she may be like anyone else friendly easy going polite and courteousbut one can feel the dominance coming from his/her heart and soul. the same is true of the sub/slave they are submissive but not to every idiot that says he is Master they are to just one, the one they submit to...for those that pretend to be something they are not....they seek sex and will pretend to be anything to get it, best to learn of each character the dominant and the sub/slave, learn what makes then tick why they are what they are, learn the difference between real and fake, then seek your own true one, and there are just as many if not more fake subs and slaves, pretending to be something they can not be. Most have no idea what a sub or slave really is or does....please learn first I have sen so many get hurt and there was no need of them getting hurt all they needed was knowledge, hmm got off the subject, sorry. Hope this helps a little bit, take care of yourself.......remember knowledge is the key that opens doors........go get the keys..........
                                                                   MasterLon

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/27/2006 11:04:25 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		prettichinadoll, you don't know what you have started...

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/27/2006 11:09:23 PM   
MasterLon


Posts: 33
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Estring,  maybe she has started something,  to get people to think, maybe just get people to be curious enough to look up what is/was said to find out for themselves, a little bit more about this lifestyle than they knew before and that my friend is not a bad thing.....
                                                                              MasterLon

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/27/2006 11:15:13 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLon

Estring,  maybe she has started something,  to get people to think, maybe just get people to be curious enough to look up what is/was said to find out for themselves, a little bit more about this lifestyle than they knew before and that my friend is not a bad thing.....
                                                                             MasterLon


I guess I should remember to put  when I am not being serious. There is nothing wrong with learning, but trust me, if the last thread on Old Guard is any indication, she will get way more info than she could ever imagine. Oh, and just in case...

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 1:04:12 AM   
Wolfie648


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quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll

That's why, as a student of history, I find the lifestyle of BDSM extremely confusing. Every one seems to have their own interpretation of everything. The most common terms such as "dominate", "slave" would have 1000 explanations if you ask 1000 different people.


Define yourself. Everything is much easier after that.

D (owner of j)

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 1:25:06 AM   
prettichinadoll


Posts: 35
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you so much for all the kind answers, especially to MasterLon. Thank you for all the information and kind suggestions regarding how to define and understand BDSM terms.

My perspective of history research is "find as much information as you could, and believe the one you like to believe". History, in many ways, is the same way as BDSM. There's no "historical fact" per se. Every one has their idea about what exactly happened and why. The only difference between history and BDSM is that history is much more systematic.

I'm interested in the Old Guard and their ideal for various reason. My Master was trained by an Old Guard, and I read this book called "slave craft", in which the write shows a very strong tendency towards the "old guard" traditon. Yet I find it very hard to accept as a submissive myself. However I find it facinating that BDSM in United States starts out from the Old Guard tradition and still today, someone would speak of proud that they're following the "Old Guard" ways. And here is this group of so called "New Guard". It must have been very influencial in the BDSM community that so many people holds them in such high position.

I want to understand Who they are, what they believe in BDSM, and why people like them?

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 1:44:48 AM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll

Once again, my curiosity got the best of me. I start to get interested in the people or a concept known as "old guard". What are those people?


Happy to oblige.

It was the Easter Bunny who started it all but since he made his leather gear from unicorn hides there were a few problems. A few hundred years later Paul Bunyan, Father Christmas and Sherlock Holmes met at the first Old Guard Munch in New Francago, Switzerland where at last some good quality gryphon hide assless chaps were available from the tree elves. Before they had so much as finished their mermaid milk cocktails they had plotted for all time the course of BDSM throughout the world plus Canada and sealed the deal with the famous Olde Guarde secret handshake, which by most accounts involved a rather peculiar grip


... but of course no two accounts agree on what the grip was.

Almost every culture, prettichinadoll, harbors a myth which keys on a claim like "there were giants in those days." The BDSM culture, such as it is, is no exception.

Some day you'll get to meet "one of the last few surviving members to have enjoyed the full training and indoctrination of this hallowed and secret society that I can't wait to bore you with all the details of (in the vain hope that it will make your panty elastic loose its resiliancy)."

Be sure to ask him to take you for a ride in his black helicopter to meet his brother the (last surviving) crop circle/phrenology expert.




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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 1:57:43 AM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Once upon a time, in a land far far away......

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 3:59:38 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll
I read this book called "slave craft", in which the write shows a very strong tendency towards the "old guard" traditon. Yet I find it very hard to accept as a submissive myself.

Natural slaves and submissives may resemble each other, but they are not alike. A submissive is not a slave.

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 4:09:39 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		LOL, Noah!

- Susan

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 4:24:39 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Think the Village people with floggers and a serious attitude......

Actually i am teasing, just like groups every where i've met a few of the older Old Guard folk who i really liked and some i did not. We do however have them to thank in part for bringing bdsm into mainstream awareness

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 6:24:37 AM   
MasterLon


Posts: 33
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I have read all of the posts here, Nice people, but I am  amazed at some of the info people believe in.. Why would a heterosexual person learn of old guard???? the heterosexuals had  been in the lifestyle long before the gay leather folks, long before the intiials bdsm, long before it was known as a lifestyle. My dad would say "it is the way we live",. there were many groups out there of people living this lifestyle,  of course it was very secretive, just as the gay/leather folks, both  were underground and very secretive.  so people did not know of each other per se, just what they would read in the bondage magazines of yesteryear and the little ads in the back of those magazines.  it could take as long as 4 months after answering those little ads in the back before one is introduced to a group of like minded individuals, but that is for another time. the Hets took from the gay/leatherfolks "some'" of thier protocols and again changed them around to suit our needs and started  using them, but this lifestyle did not by any means start with the gay/leather folks, why then is old guard more well known than old school,  because it is not as old,  as "old School"....Many people are confused, they say Old Guard and mean "Old School" many have not an idea of what they are talking about,  they hear it said in a chatroom some where and think it will make them seem better and take on the term as they would the term Master, I am sure that some did learn of the old guard ways but to actually use them in the heterosexul community that I seriously doubt.  People back then did not want to be in  gay/leather when they were not, the protocols that were adhered to  strongly,  were a lot different than what the heterosexual folks used...I think, I mentioned it already people are just confused about Old Guard and Old School, Most do not know the difference....it sounds cool so they use it...just my own opinion....
                                                                                        MasterLon

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 7:19:31 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		http://www.collarchat.com/m_486010/mpage_1/key_old%252Cguard/tm.htm#486045
Old Guard (4)

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=109&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#109
The term "old guard"

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=8377&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#8377
Old Guard Myth or Not

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=20268&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#20268
old guard???

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=26450&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#26450
old guard?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=62276&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#62276
Old guard...New guard...what guard?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=63736&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#63736
old guard vs old school

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=79737&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#79737
Old Guard (2)

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=83839&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#83839
Old Guard Master

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=88818&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#88818
Old Guard? (2)

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=150042&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#150042
Old Guard (3)

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 7:35:22 AM   
twicehappy


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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLon

I have read all of the posts here, Nice people, but I am  amazed at some of the info people believe in.. Why would a heterosexual person learn of old guard????.


Yes i said it nice people. Some of them were. I guess if all you witnessed was the very strict protocols or the heavy scenes you might question that statement.
 
Having had friends who were Old Guard (i know i am 44 years old but i started early! Way before legal age)and been in their homes i can safely say they lived just like we do,  they cooked, mowed their yards, shopped, loved each other, so yes i can say Nice People.
 
My statement that they helped bring bdsm out of the closet also has it's truth; they were a highly visible group when the straight bdsm community was not.
 
As to why a heterosexual knew or would want to know them, our respective worlds interlocked in a few areas. I was a stripper on the Block; the gay leather stores being located on the same block, the owners of some of the straight clubs also owned the gay clubs, the clubs with the outlandishly wonderful tranny shows. We all used the same dress and costume makers. Not to mention that at times the bdsm events, bars and parties were often one and the same. 
 
I am aware of the difference between Old School (which to me means bikers but i know that is only because i am one, lol) and Old Guard; i realize there are many who do not however.
 
 

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 7:37:00 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
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Status: offline 		Here is an informative site i had bookmarked regarding "Old Guard" - there are 19 articles on the subject http://www.fetishalliance.net/Stories/stories.htm

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 7:44:03 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLon

...I think, I mentioned it already people are just confused about Old Guard and Old School, Most do not know the difference....it sounds cool so they use it...just my own opinion....
                                                                                       MasterLon


Here is an interesting exchange regarding "old school" vs "new school"   http://p081.ezboard.com/fthejourneyofthewaysfrm17.showMessage?topicID=283.topic

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 7:53:17 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Here is an informative site i had bookmarked regarding "Old Guard" - there are 19 articles on the subject http://www.fetishalliance.net/Stories/stories.htm


Thank you for posting the links. They were very informative.

porcelaine

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 8:25:58 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
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Status: offline 		Personally I only consider those vets who came back from WWII and created a leather subculture among the homosexual male population to be Old Guard. Yes, some of them are indeed still around but their numbers are dwindling.

Frankly I think trying to lable oneself as "old" "new" or "other" Guard is rather silly. Just be yourself and if you are associated with an organization that you like and feel naming it is important, then do so.

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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/28/2006 8:29:22 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		You're very welcome - i forgot to mention you need to click first on BDSM Scene and Training Pages, then find (right side, fourth down) Old Guard/New Guard Articles and Stories

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