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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 1:40:29 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		NG you are to be congratulated on making a series of posts that can at least be read, are coherent and make some good points. The only problem is that the points you  make are totally irrelevant to the changes that have occured since the end of WW2 in modern Britain. Since I do not know from what date to 1945  the UK was a homogeneous society marred by an unequal distribution of wealth and a nasty vicious class system. Such civil disobediance as occurred was frequently directed towards improving the lot of the "lower"orders and widening the voter base. Along with the withdrawal from Empire  working class living standards rose and a rosy future looked secure based on our 19th century engineering achievements. The generosity of the USA played a big hand here.Marshall AID. The important point is that the society was racially and religiously homogeneous. DNA structure, Roman invasion  Norman conquest  notwithstanding.That is the point at which the debate should start.

Since then we have had influxes of all kinds producing a racially, in the obvious sense of the word ie black/white and religiously diverse society. Gradually over those 60 years a splitting apart occurred and ended up with what we have now, a segregated tense unstable society which may or may not tip over into civil disorder. All this has been made worse by the collapse of the main wealth creating engine of any advanced society , manufacture, genuine value added economic activity. Not even a plethora of Historians can compensate for that !

I am pleased that you enjoy eating an Indian  meal in Rusholme but I just hope a fanatical Muslim does not wash it down with a Molotov cocktail. I just hope that the Hindus. Muslims do not start shooting one another because of a problem in Kashmir. I just hope that Sikhs and Hindus do not start fighting one another due to a problem in the Punjab. I just hope that fanatical Muslims do not attack Jews due to the Middle East situation. None of these happenings is impossible to imagine. Indeed NG many have already occured.

That is the problem which seems to totally escape you.

Notice I have not even mentioned the problems that may occur as unskilled whites compete for jobs with unskilled immigrants or the internecine ie within their own group conflicts where Muslim fights Muslim, Sikh fights Sikh for control of the local temple. Turf wars  Afro v Afro or Afro v Asian.

Who do you support NG the Johnson Crew or the watsit Boys. The B'ham Afro gangs involved in the 2005 Aston  B'ham murders.


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/5/2006 2:44:15 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 1:44:06 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Seeks,

I've almost argued myself into a coma - time to move on.

Regards

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 2:14:53 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		We were discussing Englishness not Britishness. Britain as we all know is a political entity. What has the Highlands and islands got to do with England?

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 2:39:52 PM   
Master96


Posts: 593
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline 		I didn’t read the whole thread but I got this joke…..

Foreign language!

Master96,

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 3:00:57 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline 		All that has been said leads me to conclude that the posters sometimes dislike/hate the foreign language speaker, not just the foreign langugage.  In fact, in parts of the US, MOST people speak spanish as their frst langugage (e.g., Miami/Dade).  What is so wrong with making an effort to communicate in spanish?  If that's all that's being asked of Y/you, where's the harm?
 
pinkee

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 3:10:36 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

All that has been said leads me to conclude that the posters sometimes dislike/hate the foreign language speaker, not just the foreign langugage.  In fact, in parts of the US, MOST people speak spanish as their frst langugage (e.g., Miami/Dade).  What is so wrong with making an effort to communicate in spanish?  If that's all that's being asked of Y/you, where's the harm?
 
pinkee

And those people came to America for WHAT reason? 

People need to integrate intheir new location..otherwise.. why bother coming here.  If you just "take over" you are no better than where you have been.  The "better life" you come to America for ceases to exist.  And it's their own fault.

It's just frustrating for us is all.  There IS so much opportunity here.  But if all you want is to live the same way you did- why bother.. it's not what we are about.  We will help.. but it is thrown in our face. 



< Message edited by LotusSong -- 9/5/2006 3:12:11 PM >

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 3:27:56 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Pinkie..there is no doubt that personal animosity exists with regard to immigrants. in whichever country they are, but dont you think its a bit much to emigrate and then expect changes from the host community. No harm if those changes are offered, but to expect them?

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 3:32:31 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

All that has been said leads me to conclude that the posters sometimes dislike/hate the foreign language speaker, not just the foreign langugage.  In fact, in parts of the US, MOST people speak spanish as their frst langugage (e.g., Miami/Dade).  What is so wrong with making an effort to communicate in spanish?  If that's all that's being asked of Y/you, where's the harm?
 
pinkee


They need to learn english, this is an english speaking country by a massive degree. I'm not going to move to Germany and expect them to learn english to suit me.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 4:00:42 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline 		well, if i won a trip to Europe tomorrow, i'd still go and hope that the people in Italy & France, etc. would s'how be kind to me even though i couldn't speak their language.  If i emigrated, yea, i'd try hard to learn, but as i have said, it's very difficult for me to learn to speak -- not so bad on reading.
 
And i have to admit, i'd prolly be inclinded to hang out more with other english-speaking people who lived there; maybe live near them, etc. as my g'parents did here. 
 
i'm not opposed to asking spanish-speaking people to learn english; i'm opposed to using that like some sort of club to beat on them.
 
pinkee

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 4:08:36 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Sure, going to visit is one thing, I'm talking about living in a country. But really, even visiting, I would not expect them to speak my language, but I would appreciate it.
 
I don't want to beat anyone on the head lol, and I know it can be difficult for some, but make the effort, is all I'm saying, and don't expect the country to change for you. I wouldn't go to someone's house and expect them to change, I'm going to make sure I fit in.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 9:36:25 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Where we seem to be disagreeing surrounds basic civil rights of innocent until proven guilty. . ....................We really need to get away from the view that the British muslim community and terrorism are interlinked.

Why is the onus on British muslims to prevent Islamophobia? ............creating and cynically using it either to support economic exploitation or provide a scapegoat for personal frustration.

NG Have not gone through all the other posts and above are just two out of context parts of your post BUT I would say that our different approaches are based on perception of human nature. You always seem to be looking for that nice inner person in people to come out. In an ideal world only the guilty would be penalised. But this isnt an ideal world and thats the problem. Unless the Musim community does some Marketing to reasure the non Muslims that they and their religeon is not what is portrayed, and provide some real substance other than saying in effect you are all wrong and we are really nice it will be irrelevent whether they are right or wrong, innocent or guilty because the baser side of humanity present in everyone will come out. My concern relates to the Gene comming out of the bottle in the UK with a big backlash which will et very ugly. People generally are not the nasty racist bigots often portrayed, they are mild just want to be left alone types (until after 5 pints anyway) but it will only take a few more "islamic incidents" followed by antagonistic comments from "representatives of Islam to drive the moderates to extreme. That is what concerns me. Whether the onus is on the British Muslims to prevent Islamophobia is irrelevent........it is in their interests to try.  


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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 12:03:42 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Dtes,

Agreed, it is in their interests to try but it is in our interests too. It takes two to tango etc. And, whichever way you look at it Islamophobia is Western created and borne out of prejudice and we should be big enough to accept this and do something about the right wing elements in our community who are basically stirring up racial tension.

I'm not always looking for the nice inner person. Of course there is an ugly side to Islam. What I'm saying is there are bad apples in every barrel/community and a minority in every group who will abuse a system. Why can't we accept this in relation to the muslim community? All the facts prove it is a minority so why are people saying British muslims and terrorism are inter-linked? - the only conclusion is personal right-wing prejudice because the facts do not support this view.

I completely agree on your point that racial tension is like a hornets nest and can spiral out of control - and this is exactly why the sensible among us should not be listening to the right wing half-wits with their Islamophobe, ill conceived views. Just because they are frustrated with life should we allow them to spoil it for everyone else?

Your comment on Islampohobia and who the onus on - I can't agree at all. It has been generated in our communities so surely it is our responsibility.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 12:28:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Your comment on Islampohobia and who the onus on - I can't agree at all. It has been generated in our communities so surely it is our responsibility.



Not entirely. I do remember a small thing about terrorism and numerous declarations by various muslims wanting to kill the great satan and his allies. Distrust of the Islamic community by the white community is probably one of the things the terrorists are after and what they are achieving because I don't hear any condemnation by muslims that sound genuine. In fact most seem to say they understand it even if they don't agree with it because of western policies. Well I can see where they are coming from in that regard but they aren't being entirely honest because the Islamic world is failing because of itself. The west while not innocent is a convenient reason for muslims to not look at themselves and see they themselves to blame for their own failings but they refuse to because they see their culture as better because it is god's own culture. Until they are honest with themselves, who is going to trust them as a whole?

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 1:11:45 AM   
Royalton


Posts: 53
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		What Estring says is right.  The problem is not the translation but that the words were changed.
As a matter of fact The Star Spangled Banner was translated into Spanish by the U.S. Bureau of Education in 1919.  Let's remember that it became the National Anthem in 1931.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 1:33:13 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Another point that NG overlooks is the murderous conflicts that exist within Islam itself. The situation in Eyeraq right now should expose that to him. While there is no doubt that there is violent opposition to the occupation directed at the Western forces, the Muslims are not united in that opposition. The Sunnis and Shias are also murdering one another ! Which right wing dimwit brought that about. Is that not a failure of multi culturalism ?

As for the  statements that Islam is a religion of peace that we frequently hear expressed, NG I hereby offer to pay for transport for you to meet with Osama bin Laden, where you can explain to him that he is not a true Muslim.

If anything can be found I will arrange  to pick up what remains of you, after ObL has shown you the error of your ways, and return the pieces to any destination in the UK that you wish.

With your luck he would probably smile and say...Foolish western Historian ! Carry on playing into my hands. Sharia law will supercede Parliamentary law in the UK and you, NG, will be my Minister of Justice. Allah Akbah.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/6/2006 1:35:04 AM >

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 2:32:23 AM   
LordCadence


Posts: 11
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		No, we are the only country to not declare a national language, that was our mistake to accomidate the "melting pot", english just became the common language.  The problem is, in other countries where there is a national language (let's pick on France) there are no "french as a second language" courses there as here.
To cover another earlier poster....By your logic no population owns the plot of land they call their country, yet they all have borders and immigration laws.  In Australia I believe you have to proove you are gainfully employeed before you can even consider living there as a citizen with the rights allowed.  Each country has their own laws refering to immigration.  If someone crosses the border with out documenting their movement into the country they are commiting an illeagal act (something many countries uphold in their own laws) I have nothing against immigration and wanting to make a better life, but when your first act in your new country is to commit a crime and then make no effort to actually gain citizenship then you need to get the hell out.  If you do not want to gain citizenship then you don't get to take advantage of all that citizenship entails (social security: if you haven't put anything into social security why do you get to take some out? food stamps: a tax funded program, again if you haven't contributed anything to the tax base why do you get to benifit from it)  When you are illeagally in the country there is no way to contribute to the tax base other then sales tax since most of the time you are either working under the table or in a cash only business with no record or transactions, NO country will allow you to work without coffing up some kitty to the tax man so why should we be expected to smile and accept it.  Immigration is not a problem, ILLEAGAL immigration is.  Course we went way off topic, so to address the original topic.  I don't agree that english speaking kids should have to say int in spanish to accomidate on the same token if the kid can't speak it in english then he don't have to speak it at all.  Otherwise, I understand Spanish, have problems with the speaking part but if I go to the effort to understand what your saying then I expect the same consideration.  All of the spanish speaking guys I work with (surprisingly they moved here leagally so it can't be that difficult) understand english but have problems speaking it so we just communicate to each other in the tongue we are fluent in, geez, ain't compromise grand.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 3:05:22 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		That sounds too sensible to me Lord C.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 3:11:17 AM   
slavejlb


Posts: 446
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline 		Hell i have enough trouble with english and it is my native tongue
see i even at times have a hard spelling, and i am a collage grad. oh well life does go on
take care and be safe
guess who

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 9:32:56 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		all sub hetero males should be made to learn at least two foreign languages......... after all, this will make them skilled cunning-linguists!

(the old ones are the best - and just couldnt resist this one!)

E

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/6/2006 9:41:52 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
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From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

all sub hetero males should be made to learn at least two foreign languages......... after all, this will make them skilled cunning-linguists!

(the old ones are the best - and just couldnt resist this one!)

E



Just gotta love it when they rooooolll them R's :) 

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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