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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/22/2006 9:10:49 PM

cuddleheart50

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general reply

Is this the never ending story????

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/22/2006 11:23:40 PM

BrutalAntipathy

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Rule,

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you the one that thinks modern physics is wrong about things? If so, you may want to take a look at these links. One is a confirmation of General Relativity, and the other is claiming to be direct proof of dark matter.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060821133930.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060914094623.htm

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 2:21:58 AM

philosophy

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"Is this the never ending story????"

...yes...with a cast of millions.....

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 3:03:47 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy
you may want to take a look at these links. One is a confirmation of General Relativity, and the other is claiming to be direct proof of dark matter.

Unfortunately my very old computer shut down when I activated the first link.

Look, neither GR nor dark matter exist. I am that certain that I would bet my life on it.
Astronomers invoke dark matter to explain the behaviour of galaxies because they are obsessed with gravity, a very weak force. In effect they are replacing one strange turtle (the mysterious phenomenon observed) with another impossible turtle (dark matter). One does not have to be a genius to perceive that this is crazy. These are the delusions of desperate lunatics.

In my astronomy book I have presented a model that explains the conformation of galaxies as due to the electrical force, an immensely strong force. In effect I am saying: "See, turtles do not exist; this phenomenon can easily be explained by application of very well known laws of 'classical' physics."

This is what the reviewer of my book said: "[He] not only derives (using dimensional analysis) a relationship between the redshift as a function of distance travelled by a photon with a specified initial frequency but goes on inter alia to argue for a steady state universe, to criticise the Big Bang hypothesis and to cast doubt on Einstein’s General theory of relativity. His concept of photons which tire the farther they travel is most appealing".

< Message edited by Rule -- 9/23/2006 3:05:55 AM >

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 3:24:01 AM

bills944

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Watch The Elegant Universe (3 hours) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 5:36:00 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi BA

Now I understand where you are arguing from - yes, certainly Christianity and the Bible can be shown to derive from earlier sources, which is clear enough for any fundamentalist to need to deny. For myself I long since stopped getting worked up in an argument with such Christians about this, because even if Jesus came back to the world and said it to them, they would still deny it. One cannot have a profitable exchange with anyone who is unwilling to listen. Still though, I wish you all success in resisting any foolishness of their part.

But there are also a lot of good people out there who are well balanced Christians, for whom their faith and works do not rely on blind denial of such an abundance of evidence as to the likes of evolution, earlier dying and rising sun God cults, parallels between the gospels and other scriptures from traditions far away and so on. These are the real Christians in my view, because they understand that it is faith in Jesus' dying and resurrection as sacrifice for their sins, which is the nature of Christianity, and that the rest of it is pretty much non essential, "nice to have" background.

But then from my point of view, the divine is not the God of the Bible. The divine is too big to be confined in any way and even if all the religions of mankind that ever existed were brought together, still they would be insufficient to express the nature of the divine. Some come closer than others, but none are able to express in words, that which is. Religions all contain truth, but not the whole truth, and its only the spiritual rather than religious person who can get anywhere near to the whole truth, sometimes by developing gnosis and sometimes by instant, direct, revelatory experience.

As for science, it may be a problem to the religious fundamentalists, perhaps because they read their scriptures but fail to comprehend them, but certainly for me science is an interesting field which brings ever greater descriptions of all that is. In the end though, science is to me a little like a fundamentalist religious person who reads the words and understands the sentences of the universe, but fails to comprehend them. Whether science is accurate is not relevant to my comprehension, just as religions are not relevant to it either. But still both are valuable and interesting.

E

PS - have you read Edward Carpenter's "The Origins Of Pagan And Christian Beliefs"? Its an old book, (late 19th century), but traces everything back to mankind's earliest days of conciousness of the divine.

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 6:54:59 AM

Chaingang

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For me it breaks down to one of my own experiences of the divine: namely a vision of machine elves under the influence of stropharia cubensis (aka magic mushrooms). As a routine psychonaut many years ago I often had experiences of these little elfen creatures that seemed to literally be the engineers of reality. These tiny little creatures seemed to be operating everything around me via pulleys, chains, strings, complex Kirbyesque machinary, etc. Very cheerfully they were in total control. This went on for some time until I explained it to someone who said they had seen the elves also. Rather than reassuring me this information was profoundly disturbing instead - now I had some kind of consensus for an experience which I assumed was just an absurdity of my own mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Elves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stropharia_cubensis

A quote from the former:
-----
This concept may be related to a tendency for the brain to imagine living entities during certain altered states. The best example of this is the extremely common feeling of a living presence during sleep paralysis (which has been theorized as the origin of the succubus, as well as a common theme in many alien abduction stories). Another example would be the widespread experience of a "Salvia Goddess" encountered by users of Salvia Divinorum. However, Terence McKenna and Rick Strassman have both asserted the sense of reality of the experience is distinct from ordinary hallucinatory experiences, leading both researchers to speculate that perhaps the physics of many worlds is involved.
-----

Uh yeah, or dudes - maybe a human brain under the influence of the exact same hallucinatory chemical will tend to have the exact same type of hallucination. Duh!

Otherwise we have to assume that hallucinogens are not just mind-altering, but consciousness expanding. With certain doors and windows opened to other perceptions we catch glimpses of creatures that are not mere figments of the imagination but actual beings in their own right. Why, that would be glorious!!!

Occam's Razor tells me the latter explanation assumes a lot of things not in evidence. A psychonaut tweaker should at least be self-aware enough to know when they are tweaking and not having an experience of the divine.

I was on the road to Damascus (leading some Jews I hoped to crucify under Lex Romana) when I had a vision of the divine:

That's right, it's peanut butter jelly time! Enjoy the machine elves.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 9/23/2006 6:55:48 AM >

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 7:10:47 AM

Chaingang

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Mandatory link:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.devilducky.com%2Fmedia%2F38524%2F&ei=pD8VRZSKN4nMpwLI-LGWCA&sig=__CZDD-IqEmiym7UhgDHMYwEMeRVY=&sig2=fe45gmcPLt-lxht8BbuAgw

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 8:36:42 AM

LadyEllen

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Chain - did seeing the elves change your perceptions and awareness after the mushrooms lost their effect?

Would you like to postulate which drug I was using when I had my experience of the divine?

E

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 8:47:20 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Chain - did seeing the elves change your perceptions and awareness after the mushrooms lost their effect?

Actually, it did. I realized I have a rather intense dislike of the color orange in certain hues and saturations.

Also I realized that much of perceived reality is a social construct with other purposes beyond the actual truth of things. Examples include religion, western notions of love, overpopulation as some kind of insane moral imperative, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Would you like to postulate which drug I was using when I had my experience of the divine?

Someone else's urine?

I kid, don't be mad now...

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 8:55:06 AM

LadyEllen

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Chain - I've heard of taking the piss, but that is just too much LOL!
E

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 9:55:14 AM

Noah

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quote:

All this and a lesson in logic from a man that knows so little about the subject that he was unaware that an analogy could be misapplied.

Wonderful! Yes. A recalitrant student you are, BA, but beneath all the kicking and whining you are coming along.

An analogy can be aptly described as misapplied, when used in a given context to a given purpose. Of course this is a subjective evaluation but we can usually find some consensus among our subjective views and when we can't we may have succeeded in getting down to the crux of the difference in our points of view.

This of course is altogether different from any sort of claim that an analogy can be "true" or "false". I'm gratified to see that you have boned up on the subject and I'm amused that you have fulfilled my prophecy that you would try to find some relatively face-saving way to distance yourself from your initial error.

quote:

So come ,little troller, show us what you got.

Hey now, is that plagiarized from a Chuck Berry song? "Sweet Little Rock and Troller"? And if so does it disprove the existence of R and B?

quote:

Now shall we stop insulting one another? It gets old fast, especially when I am the only one adding anything of substance.

Get that Marie? BA is the only one adding anything of substance. Offerrings like the actual definition of ad hominem, teaching BA that analogies are potential misapplied rather than potentially false, and a discussion of the fact that poetry and truth are not dichotomous are, like, I don't know, insubstantial.

You wanna stop the ridicule, BA? But that must be at least half the reason anyone else is still plowing through this stuff, you supercilious fungus. How about if we stop insulting everyone who has ever professed religious faith by claiming that that which they hold most dear is mere garbage but that they are too "uneducated" to see this--which I believe is where you came in. How about if we make a policy of trying to understand the other person's point before going into rant orbit?

And I will reserve the right to ridicule the actions of anyone who misapplies either religion or science in ridiculous ways. Including, some which you have cited.

See you all later. I've got a Doppleganger meeting in fifteen minutes and they've asked me to get the Danish.

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 3:32:07 PM

Takethiswaltz

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I realize I'm a little late in adding my two cents; this thread seems to be winding down. But here goes anyway, for anyone that's interested.

Our universe is awe-inspiring; divine, even. Does this divinity come from the hand of a god? Probably not. Nature is divine- intricate,
orderly, and, dare I say, unpredictable. We don't have a complete understanding of it; we never will. Thinking so is hubris.

Nature is bigger then us in such a simple way. Take, for example,
the presence of pathogens. No sooner are we on the road to eradicate or at least control a particular pathogen with an antimicrobial, then the slick little germ adjusts its RNA and our method is no longer effective. HIV has mutated so many times in an
effort to avoid eradication we are not even aware of most of the mutations.

Conciousness? Hunches? These are simply the memory of a vast amount of life experience which we draw upon in a given situation.
We often do not even realize we have these memories. The detective with a "hunch"? He has memories and experience that he cannot name, so he calls it a hunch. As a critical care nurse, I frequently can spot a patient that is about to "circle the drain", although no objective data seems to support this. I could call my recognition a hunch, and many nurses will tell you of the same experience, but is this instinct of a metaphysical source? No way. It's simply years of experience watching people and the way they converse and interact with others; the ease with which they breathe; how peacefully they rest; how easily they eat and drink. I could claim to have good instincts, but its really just years of experience and memories;
memories, that on most days, I don't even realize that I have.

Our universe was once completely barren; that is, lifeless. This scientists know. Then carbon was introduced, which is at the core of all living things. Where did this carbon come from? This question has never been answered. Even if you ascribe to the theory of evolution , which in my mind is a reasonable and scientifically sound theory, we can't explain the nexus from inorganic matter to organic life. Some may believe it was the hand of a supreme being, many simply admit "we don't know". Scientists have never been able to turn a rock into a butterfly, and never will.

I was raised believing in God. I raised my children believing in God and will raise my grandchildren in the same vein. Do I think God had a hand in the formation of the first living cell? Who knows. It's just one answer to a question that will never be answered. My belief in God is more self-serving. I pray, I meditate, I find a little bit of peace.

And for those who ascribe to the Christians values of compassion, forgiveness, love, and so on, check out the Old Testament.
God was one scary dude.

From my little peice of the world to yours,
T.

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/23/2006 3:49:32 PM

BrutalAntipathy

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Gee, and I could have sworn that those professors called it a false analogy! And what is the opposite of truth, again? Oh well, glad that I was able to teach you this, despite your being too shallow and insecure to admit it.

At least one of us has the dignity to admit they were mistaken about a few things. But we can't expect the ones with tiny egos to do that, now can we?

And yes, I do quite honestly believe that every religo is delusional. For the most part it is a harmless delusion. But the ones that claim their invisible sky daddy talks to them worry me, as do the ones that seem to have watched the Matrix one too many times.

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