RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart?

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 7/26/2005 7:10:23 PM

miikaawaadizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK
So slaves don't fall under the category of "women in general"?

how are the Free going to tell the difference when they meet a random stranger? common sense would tend to lean towards treating them as Free unless you know otherwise, and if they're slaves, you're going to treat them as slaves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK
His actions forced me to to question/challenge all that you just mentioned.

you asked what it is for Gorean slaves, I gave you my feelings :)

~miika

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 7/26/2005 7:17:39 PM

cellogrrlMK

Posts: 672
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quote:

ORIGINAL: miikaawaadizi

how are the Free going to tell the difference when they meet a random stranger? common sense would tend to lean towards treating them as Free unless you know otherwise, and if they're slaves, you're going to treat them as slaves.

Well, that's kind of my point. I'm talking about in the real world, out in situations that are "lifestyle" based.

quote:

you asked what it is for Gorean slaves, I gave you my feelings :)

I guess I asked what it is for Gorean people in general (that term again!) I appreciate your answers. I'm just trying to figure out how all of this relates to the real world, that's all.

cello

< Message edited by cellogrrlMK -- 7/26/2005 7:18:22 PM >

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 7/26/2005 11:44:34 PM

blackwolf99

Posts: 30
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Careful of the use of the word 'darling". It seems to set certain people off. Or is that just if a male says it?

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/1/2005 2:33:49 PM

Malkinius

Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK
I don't mean for the above quote to be out of context, but I have noticed in a couple of responses talk about the Gor "side" and the BDSM "side". If one has nothing to do with the other, as I have seen Malkinius state in the past, why is Gor always included on BDSM websites? Why isn't there a Gor.com website so these "sides" can just leave one another in peace?

Wouldn't that make things a lot easier for everyone?

cello

greetings cello....

There are many Gorean web sites. Some reference BDSM web sites. Some do not. The reason why BDSM groups want to include Goreans is that in general, BDSMers, especially those who organize groups offline want to include as many people as possible under their skirts and thus appear bigger and more influential than they actually are. Thus they think they will get greater public acceptance. This is worked to some extent. Anyone who wants to have more and more of whatever will include as much as they can if they think it even remotely involves what they are into. Most really don't know any better. The web site list is just links copied from other places.

I really really won't go into the differences and the whys of the differences. Been there...done that...many many times. The real point is that some see the differences and some don't. That goes for BOTH sides. It is the old idea that if the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails. If you only see the slaver, Gor looks like a part of BDSM. If you take away the slaves, it doesn't.

The reason some of us keep fighting it is that we DON'T WANT to be included in a group that we are not a part of and which goes against some of our beliefs. Why should a Gorean man want to be part of a group mostly run by and for women and subs? Why should I care about things like SSC or RASK when I don't do anything that they apply to? Like I say, my slave doesn't need a safeword to keep from being burned when getting me a cup of coffee. She is expected to not harm herself when doing so without me telling her not to burn herself.

be well cello....

Malkinius

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/1/2005 7:38:31 PM

IronBear

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Tal Malkinius. Brava! 'Tor-tu-Gor'

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/1/2005 9:12:02 PM

cellogrrlMK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
The reason some of us keep fighting it is that we DON'T WANT to be included in a group that we are not a part of and which goes against some of our beliefs. Why should a Gorean man want to be part of a group mostly run by and for women and subs? Why should I care about things like SSC or RASK when I don't do anything that they apply to?

Ummm, then why do Gorean people keep going to said websites?

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/1/2005 9:45:03 PM

Fidelity

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Exactly.

BDSM and Gor are totally different animals. A few of the trappings may bear a passing resemblance-but gorean Philosophy is inimical to commonly practiced bdsm. They simply DO NOT mesh-no matter how much the "pan sexual BDSM" crowd wishes that they might.

You see,the main problem I have always noted with "bdsm inclusivity", is this. Once they feel you are "under thier umbrella" they also seem to feel they have the right to enforce THIER political structure upon one as well. Which is totally alien to Gor as it is practiced. And thusly,intolerable.

And this inclusivity would, in fact, tend to seek to destroy it. So I do understand where the warring comes from, between the two factions. It's "pc game" that neither can win. I actually see the Gorean side as usually winning by default. They just snicker at the bdsmer's,and go do exactly as they please.

Like it or no,that is the beauty and curse of having faith in one's beliefs. You do what you WILL do-and the rest simply don't matter.

So at times it IS difficult to see the difference between strength and arrogance. All depends on what shoes you stand in,doesn't it?

< Message edited by Fidelity -- 8/1/2005 9:46:21 PM >

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/1/2005 10:17:30 PM

Malkinius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK
Ummm, then why do Gorean people keep going to said websites?

greetings cello....

I suppose for the same reason other people do. There is something there we think is worth looking at. When it comes to something such as slavery, there is a lot of good and practical information on the BDSM side. There is a lot of garbage as well. But, you didn't need me to tell you that. (grins) Also, sometimes we do want to see what others are saying about us and every once in a while get people straightened out as to the reality as opposed to the fantasy that people have of what being Gorean is all about.

be well.....

Malkinius

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/2/2005 4:49:54 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

I not talking Free Women here, I'm talking WOMEN in general, women in the real world, where they have to be encountered in day to day living.

Women in the general populace would be regarded by a Gorean as a free woman. I physically threw a gang-banger out of my local Starbucks one time because he was menacing the free woman behind the counter. An act of chivalry? Galantry? Probably looked like it. What nobody (who isn't Gorean) would understand is that she happened to be a free woman of my City . I don't stand by while shit like that happens in my City. There are larger (to a Gorean) principals at work, based on our value system. I think that in most situations, we would be considered to exemplify chivalry. What we don't exemplify very well is deferential behavior toward women. It's not the same thing.

quote:

I don't mean for the above quote to be out of context, but I have noticed in a couple of responses talk about the Gor "side" and the BDSM "side". If one has nothing to do with the other, as I have seen Malkinius state in the past, why is Gor always included on BDSM websites? Why isn't there a Gor.com website so these "sides" can just leave one another in peace?

What I have in common with some folks in the BDSM culture is that I have kept slaves for much of my adult life. I post to these boards because I think that, from time to time, I might have something useful to contribute on that subject and related subjects of common interest. "Gorean" is included as an interest area here because of that commonality, I'm sure. I have little else in common with most of the folks on Collarme.

I don't think that the "sides" are really all that antagonistic. The subject of Goreans actually seems to hold a great deal of interest for many in the BDSM culture (take a look at the number of reads on this thread compared to other threads). We (Goreans) are a counter-culture. We hold beliefs that are out of favor in the modern west, and by extension in the general BDSM culture. The presence of a counter-culture will always be somewhat irritating to those who feel the need to be "correct" with respect to established culture, so, some antagonism is to be expected. I think that what antagonism there is is managable relative to the value of participating here, so I'm here.

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/2/2005 4:58:41 AM

luvdragonx

Posts: 388
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I've been mildly interested in the Gorean way as I've seen it mentioned here and there. I found this thread and read it in it's entirety, which led me to this post

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

With Goreans, the real ones, what you see is what you get. We don't like fakes and liars. We do see too many of those on the BDSM side, but I know you have problems with them too.

I don't mean for the above quote to be out of context, but I have noticed in a couple of responses talk about the Gor "side" and the BDSM "side". If one has nothing to do with the other, as I have seen Malkinius state in the past, why is Gor always included on BDSM websites? Why isn't there a Gor.com website so these "sides" can just leave one another in peace?

Wouldn't that make things a lot easier for everyone?

cello

Which is exactly what I was thinking.

quote:

greetings cello....

There are many Gorean web sites. Some reference BDSM web sites. Some do not. The reason why BDSM groups want to include Goreans is that in general, BDSMers, especially those who organize groups offline want to include as many people as possible under their skirts and thus appear bigger and more influential than they actually are. Thus they think they will get greater public acceptance. This is worked to some extent. Anyone who wants to have more and more of whatever will include as much as they can if they think it even remotely involves what they are into. Most really don't know any better. The web site list is just links copied from other places.

I really really won't go into the differences and the whys of the differences. Been there...done that...many many times. The real point is that some see the differences and some don't. That goes for BOTH sides. It is the old idea that if the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails. If you only see the slaver, Gor looks like a part of BDSM. If you take away the slaves, it doesn't.

The reason some of us keep fighting it is that we DON'T WANT to be included in a group that we are not a part of and which goes against some of our beliefs. Why should a Gorean man want to be part of a group mostly run by and for women and subs? Why should I care about things like SSC or RASK when I don't do anything that they apply to? Like I say, my slave doesn't need a safeword to keep from being burned when getting me a cup of coffee. She is expected to not harm herself when doing so without me telling her not to burn herself.

be well cello....

Malkinius

Since many have made it clear that Gor and BDSM are 3rd cousins, at best, why associate yourselves with it by engaging in discussions such as these? That question was answered with

quote:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK
Ummm, then why do Gorean people keep going to said websites?

greetings cello....

I suppose for the same reason other people do. There is something there we think is worth looking at. When it comes to something such as slavery, there is a lot of good and practical information on the BDSM side. There is a lot of garbage as well. But, you didn't need me to tell you that. (grins) Also, sometimes we do want to see what others are saying about us and every once in a while get people straightened out as to the reality as opposed to the fantasy that people have of what being Gorean is all about.

be well.....

Malkinius

To me, it's a small wonder why many have less than favorable opinions on the Gorean community, and any interest I had was pretty much dissolved, if your attitude is representative of the Gorean attitude.

If sites like this only include you for purposes of influence, why give them the benefit of your presence? Especially if it has nothing to do with your lifestyle? What could you hope to gain from a BDSM site regarding slavery if you already have your end-all-be-all code? Especially since the Gorean idea of slavery seems a far different animal than the variety presented on sites such as this one? (I may be nitpicking on that one, but the impression I got from the most articulate contributors to this thread was that the Gorean way was self contained and had no use for anything else). And why would you feel the need to 'get people straightened out' on a BDSM site if it has nothing to do with you? That would be akin to going to another country, then complaining about being misunderstood because you don't share a common language. Or like me going to a vanilla site and trying to 'set people straight' on BDSM. If they don't get it, they just don't get it, otherwise they'd be here. It sounds very 'Come down from on high and gaze upon the small folk' to me.

This is in no way meant to demean or challenge your way of life - we all have to deal with that in one way or another. If it works for you, more power, I just don't see how this approach, if you will, is productive.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 8/2/2005 6:26:43 AM >

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/2/2005 1:36:26 PM

synrgy33

Posts: 61
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As with any lifestyle, any kink.. You have to take what you get out of it to enjoy it.

John Norman based His books on a fantasy. The books kind of flopped I think when they were first written but over the years with online chat rooms, the phenomenon has grown in leaps and bounds.

First you have to take why the Gorean philiospy turns you into melted butter. Those of us who believe in Gor, it's beliefs, and it's beauty realize that you can't really sit in an Inn, and sip blackwine, or hop on a Tarn and fly away.. BUT what we can realize is that it is indeed BEAUTIFUL.

The kajira, a woman, a slave at heart. Kneeling, bending, surrendering her soul to a Man, the Man. SO in the books, a slave can be used by any man anytime anywhere. Reality checks in and of course that can happen in degrees, but we have limitiations to this because of what we call "The Law" *smiles*

.. I could say so much more, but I'm simply tired and can't form my thoughts. *laughs*

stephanie~SD~ (waves to Master ShadowKnight with a grin...)

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/2/2005 8:04:08 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

I not talking Free Women here, I'm talking WOMEN in general, women in the real world, where they have to be encountered in day to day living.

Women in the general populace would be regarded by a Gorean as a free woman. I physically threw a gang-banger out of my local Starbucks one time because he was menacing the free woman behind the counter. An act of chivalry? Galantry? Probably looked like it. What nobody (who isn't Gorean) would understand is that she happened to be a free woman of my City . I don't stand by while shit like that happens in my City. There are larger (to a Gorean) principals at work, based on our value system. I think that in most situations, we would be considered to exemplify chivalry. What we don't exemplify very well is deferential behavior toward women. It's not the same thing.

quote:

I don't mean for the above quote to be out of context, but I have noticed in a couple of responses talk about the Gor "side" and the BDSM "side". If one has nothing to do with the other, as I have seen Malkinius state in the past, why is Gor always included on BDSM websites? Why isn't there a Gor.com website so these "sides" can just leave one another in peace?

What I have in common with some folks in the BDSM culture is that I have kept slaves for much of my adult life. I post to these boards because I think that, from time to time, I might have something useful to contribute on that subject and related subjects of common interest. "Gorean" is included as an interest area here because of that commonality, I'm sure. I have little else in common with most of the folks on Collarme.

I don't think that the "sides" are really all that antagonistic. The subject of Goreans actually seems to hold a great deal of interest for many in the BDSM culture (take a look at the number of reads on this thread compared to other threads). We (Goreans) are a counter-culture. We hold beliefs that are out of favor in the modern west, and by extension in the general BDSM culture. The presence of a counter-culture will always be somewhat irritating to those who feel the need to be "correct" with respect to established culture, so, some antagonism is to be expected. I think that what antagonism there is is managable relative to the value of participating here, so I'm here.

Well said and well done Leonidas. What I find interesting is that many of my Gorean friends in the US are also members of medieval groups, which are advocated of chivalry. Many are also combat veterans. When I entered Gor I found to my joy that the code I had been brought up with such as bushido and similar codes of honour were there. Through Gor I discovered slavery and BDSM. I'm the first to state that I'm Gorean first and BDSM second. I can never see the reasons for any real discontent between the two except within the human content, but when there is a gathering of Dominants there is always the potential for friction. The fact is I know a number of Dominants who if they only knew it, are in fact Free Men and Free Women from a Gorean viewpoint. In the final analysis, I believe in letting others being themselves, defend their right to differ and disagree with me providing they don’t invade my space and attempt to force me to be like them.

I wish you well.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/3/2005 4:46:00 AM

Malkinius

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greetings luvdragonx....

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
I've been mildly interested in the Gorean way as I've seen it mentioned here and there. I found this thread and read it in it's entirety, which led me to this post

(snip)

Since many have made it clear that Gor and BDSM are 3rd cousins, at best, why associate yourselves with it by engaging in discussions such as these? That question was answered with

(snip)

To me, it's a small wonder why many have less than favorable opinions on the Gorean community, and any interest I had was pretty much dissolved, if your attitude is representative of the Gorean attitude.

If sites like this only include you for purposes of influence, why give them the benefit of your presence? Especially if it has nothing to do with your lifestyle? What could you hope to gain from a BDSM site regarding slavery if you already have your end-all-be-all code? Especially since the Gorean idea of slavery seems a far different animal than the variety presented on sites such as this one? (I may be nitpicking on that one, but the impression I got from the most articulate contributors to this thread was that the Gorean way was self contained and had no use for anything else). And why would you feel the need to 'get people straightened out' on a BDSM site if it has nothing to do with you? That would be akin to going to another country, then complaining about being misunderstood because you don't share a common language. Or like me going to a vanilla site and trying to 'set people straight' on BDSM. If they don't get it, they just don't get it, otherwise they'd be here. It sounds very 'Come down from on high and gaze upon the small folk' to me.

This is in no way meant to demean or challenge your way of life - we all have to deal with that in one way or another. If it works for you, more power, I just don't see how this approach, if you will, is productive.

I will try to sum all this up as shortly as I can. It is better that the real information gets presented than a lot of biased and completely wrong information which is most of what goes around, especially on BDSM sites. Some people see only the online gamers and think that is all there is to Gor. Some people see only the abusers, rapists and child molesters and think that is all there is to BDSM. If you heard someone saying that all men involved in BDSM only wanted to rape and beat women, would you try to correct them? If it was said that all subs were doormats and easy lays that wanted to be whipped before being raped, would you try to correct them? If you were told that you had to wear either black leather or rubber to be part of BDSM, would you correct them? If I was part of BDSM I would. Actually...I would anyway...but that is me.

The other reason I do this is that at heart I am a teacher. I want correct info out there...not misinformation. If this chases people away, so much the better. Most people should never go near things Gorean. Those that should will find it hard to leave. There is an old saying (as such things go in net time) to new would-be Gorean slaves. "If you think you want to be a Gorean slave. Run. Run away. Run away fast. And don't look back. If you can not help but return, then maybe, just maybe, you should remain." That goes even more for anyone who might think of being a Gorean.

be well....

Malkinius

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/3/2005 5:09:20 AM

IronBear

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I would say that this applies not only to slaves but to the potential Free as well. Relating to Gor chat and in particular to the role-play, I was warned “You may well spend an hour or so in role play now, however once you enter Gor it gets into your blood and you will never leave, even if you want to. The odd hour or two you spend in chat rooms now will multiply. Gor is like a drug, in the end you’ll spend every free moment in chat either talking to other Goreans or role-playing. I know quite a few who have left Gor only to return, not necessarily to role-play but certainly to chat or be active in Communities. A Gorean may well say he or she is leaving Gor but do they really? I think not. Based only on my own discussions with a number of Goreans, they may not be active on line but they still hold to Gor in their daily lives.

quote:

Where is Gor?

Is it to be found online, amidst the chatrooms, corkboards and message centers of the internet? Is it contained within a particular IRC channel, or chat service, or roleplaying room? Is it to be found on a website, are even upon all websites?

No, it cannot be found there. Not in any online venue, nor in every online venue, nor in all of the online venues put together. Not upon the entire internet, with its thousands upon thousands of server computers, with its millions of gigabytes of retrievable data. And if one were to illegally scan in every page of every book which John Norman ever wrote, and place them upon every server computer attached to the internet... Gor would still not be there.

Where is Gor?

Is it to be found within the celluloid frames of the movies which were created to tell its story? No, not there. The films which were created to tell the story of Gor were sad and laughable things, full of inconsistancies and devoid of the trappings and exhuberance which fill the Gor books to bursting. The two films which were created, which supposedly dealt with the subject of Gor but which were actually just another attempt by filmmakers to cash in on the success of a rather popular series of science-fiction/fantasy books, were empty. They depicted the activities of people in some other place than Gor. They were Xena, minus the tongue-in-cheek humor of that modern and highly successful syndicated program... they were BeastMaster and Deathstalker, but lacked even the dubious production values of those films, and the others which emulated them during the 1980's. Don't look for Gor between the credits of either of the two supposed "Gor" films... because you won't find it there.

Where is Gor?

Is Gor to be discovered by memorizing passages of prose from the series of books which gave form to the Counter-Earth? Can it be squeezed and gleaned from websites which discuss the particulars of Gorean concepts, lifestyles and philosophy? Can it be unmasked and revealed through logging into a chat channel on the internet and typing in the right combination of phrases at the correct times, and in the correct order?

Never. Because Gor is bigger than all of that. Because Gor, though replete with whips and chains and swords and collars, though filled with war and combat and the struggles of Men and their women, is not about any of that. It is about something else.

Gor is based upon love. Believe it or not.

That is the source of its greatness, and its strength. Gor is based upon the love which people can experience for their world, for their companions, and for their humanity. It is built upon the concept that men and women can love the truth, and that they can pursue that truth to its fullest extent. Those who know Gor, know that in it are contained all expressions of the love for life, the love of beauty, the love of strength, the love of honor, even the love which a group of men can feel toward a simple stone.

Those who cannot understand that Gor can be loved, and lived, will never be able to understand its strength, its purity, and its majesty. The planet Gor does not, and cannot, exist. But there are still those brave men and women who close their eyes and dream about it. In their imaginations they see the endless vistas of the green sa-tarna fields which dot that world, they behold the trackless crests of the mighty Voltai mountains, they smell the dust of the Plains of Turia and they feel the sweet clean air of another world upon their skin.

To such people, the Counter-Earth, though not a real place, is a true place. It is the stuff of myth. It is the Isle of Avalon; it is the Hidden Land under the Hollow Hills. It is the Faery Homeland of the Sidhe. It exists just beyond the borders of our waking world, ever ready to embrace those who dare to cross its boundaries and seek it, those who insist upon loving it for its own sake…………………………………………..

From an article called “Where is Gor?” by Marcus of Ar

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/3/2005 5:11:16 AM

nella

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Goreans and BDSM is an interesting topic, and i agree Gorean lifestyle is not BDSM, but is is D/s, and i think that is why it is included in BDSM sites. But i can understand their frustration, many other D/s interested pepole get werry frustrated, becouse they are putinto the BDSM pen, where they do not belong. One thing more i think many pepole miss, is that slavery is only a part of the Gorean lifestyle, and they see only that. I dont know mutch aboute Grean lifestyle, but i have been reading a bit up on it lately, and what speaks the most is the honor system and many other fasets of this lifestyle, but many looking at Gorean lifestyle, forget aboute that and sees only the slaves.

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/3/2005 1:49:09 PM

luvdragonx

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quote:

I will try to sum all this up as shortly as I can. It is better that the real information gets presented than a lot of biased and completely wrong information which is most of what goes around, especially on BDSM sites. Some people see only the online gamers and think that is all there is to Gor. Some people see only the abusers, rapists and child molesters and think that is all there is to BDSM. If you heard someone saying that all men involved in BDSM only wanted to rape and beat women, would you try to correct them? If it was said that all subs were doormats and easy lays that wanted to be whipped before being raped, would you try to correct them? If you were told that you had to wear either black leather or rubber to be part of BDSM, would you correct them? If I was part of BDSM I would. Actually...I would anyway...but that is me.

People have misconceptions about a lot of things based on personal experience or hearsay - that's unavoidable. If someone asked me about my thoughts on it, sure I'd try and present the truth as I see it. If people are truly interested in the truth, they will look for it, and find sites like this one. But I wouldn't go to a non BDSM site looking to answer or correct these assumptions. I'm not a crusader. But that's just me.

quote:

The other reason I do this is that at heart I am a teacher. I want correct info out there...not misinformation. If this chases people away, so much the better. Most people should never go near things Gorean. Those that should will find it hard to leave. There is an old saying (as such things go in net time) to new would-be Gorean slaves. "If you think you want to be a Gorean slave. Run. Run away. Run away fast. And don't look back. If you can not help but return, then maybe, just maybe, you should remain." That goes even more for anyone who might think of being a Gorean.

be well....

Malkinius

This clarifies your position for me greatly, and I will restate that my previous statements were not meant in offense. One thing that I have learned throughout my short life and time in this lifestyle is that some people hear and believe what they want of you, regardless of how well presented your position is, or virtuously you conduct yourself. I've also learned not to worry whether or not everybody 'gets' what I do. It only becomes MY problem when they bring their issues to my house. The old saying you quoted has a message that can be applied to any way of life. People dabble in BDSM. Some aren't equipped to be responsible participants, but they try it just the same. Others are drawn to it over and over, and it's likely that thay have that true calling if you will. The same could be said of Peace Corps volunteers, or school teachers, social workers, business owners, farmers.....the list goes on and on. Some people are cut out for it, some aren't. The ones that are will be the ones who find it and probably the most fulfilled by it.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 8/3/2005 1:53:13 PM >

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/3/2005 11:04:19 PM

domm4subf1970

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good question, I am sure if you look to heart to heart of the reading you will find your answers.

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/12/2005 4:33:17 PM

ManOwner

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I really don't care who agrees with me, but I'm posting here because it's possible I might have something of value to say on this subject.

This is what I think,

Anyone that uses the word "feminazi" for any purpose other than to comment negatively on another's use of the word "feminazi" is a jerk.
Chattel slavery can be a good thing when both parties are consenting adults.
When you straight-up call yourself "Gorean," you associate yourself with the characters from the books whether you like it or not. The legacy comes with the label, and nothing you say can change that. It's like when KKK members claim to oppose racially-motivated violence: Bull-Shit.
The Gorean way of life is about loving women the way hunting is about loving woodland animals.
Most societies on Earth are/were patriarchal. So what? Does that fact make patriarchy good/bad/right/wrong? No. Are historical examples wholly irrelevant to assessing Gor's goodness or harmfulness, since no Earth culture has ever come close to mirroring Gor? Yes.
Let's say that one sex of our species is physically and intellectually superior to the other sex. Let's say that this superior sex should guide and protect the other sex. The Gorean system is anything but a positive and healthy way of accomplishing that. The males in the Gorean books behave as though they should be zoo animals, not masters of females.
It's a free country. If you want to call yourself Gorean, then go ahead. I won't judge your lifestyle on anything other than its own merits. In fact, I won't judge it at all. However, I feel that the lifestyle described in the books is indefensible, and I don't see why you have to defend the books in order to defend yourself.

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/12/2005 4:55:08 PM

ManOwner

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One more thing. It seems to me that the Goreans in this forum treat the world of Gor as self-legitimizing and self-justifying, and they appear to forget that the Gorean system is untested fiction. How can anyone claim that the Gorean way is how things "should" be, when it has never worked in practice? What makes you think that the slaves on Gor would acquiesce to being dominated? What makes you think that a Gorean kajira would not poison her master's paga or behead him with his own whip knife first chance she got?

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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 8/12/2005 5:52:45 PM

nella

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The Gor books, and i am sure i will ruffel some feathers by saying this, and i am sorry for that, is extremly poorly written. And some of the things that happen is so unrealistic one want to weep. For example, you ahve this earth women, that get captures, after the second whip stroke she is ready to become a dedicated slave?!? The Gor men are suposed to not be sadistic, yet they choose a werry painful metod to mark their slaves, and make sure they are awake to experience it?!? Just to mention a few things.

And i agree the men in the books are not nutering, the slaves are given no love, no compassion, and no care. If a man falls in love whit his slave, he is expected to treath her harsher than any of the other slaves. Never in the books have i seen one of the men actualy soothe, or comfort a newly branded slave, or one that is captured from earth an is homesick. Also kidnapping woman from earth is not what i waht i would call a nice, and nutering thing to do.

However, while i belive most of the men in the Gor books are jerkes that should be castreated rather quikly, that do not mean that the Gorean lifestyle here on earth, whit woman that realy want this, and whit men that often are nutering, caring Masters that incoperate honor and obligation in their life is wrong. Infact often it can be a werry butiful lifestyle, even if the men from the book they base their lifestyle on are jearks.

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