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War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Preclude... - 9/23/2006 5:58:47 PM

KenDckey

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http://www.legion.org/?section=pub_relations&subsection=pr_listreleases&content=pr_press_release&id=391

Through some research the ACLU is recieving payment for lawsuits against Veterans Memorials, Boy Scouts, etc. There are even cases that they got awarded thousands of dollars when the law firm representing them did the work pro bono.

I believe that the ACLU can and has done good, but there appears evidence that they are also bilking the taxpayer as well.

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 6:32:15 PM

Chaingang

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I support the ACLU almost entirely across the board.

This is not a Christian nation, nor was it ever intended to be. I support the absolute separation of church and state and I think that anyone that does not is a religious zealot that should probably be destroyed (if not by me by ?). You want the state to support your religious quackery because you want to use it as a means of social control.

That is wholly unamerican and contrary to every liberty document we all hold dear.

-----

BTW, whereas I was an Eagle Scout in my day I no longer support that group because it has been significantly overtaken by a bunch of Mormon yahoos that will not include non-christians nor gays in their camping rites of passage. Well, fuck them and their bullshit. I despise bigotry and will not support it under any disguise - even that of young men in scouting uniforms.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 9/23/2006 6:33:07 PM >

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 6:38:58 PM

wnts2Bapet

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if anyone finds the phrase "separation of church and state" ANYWHERE in the constitution, please let me know. no such animal. the first amendment says nothing about that particular phrase. it simply says "Congress shall make no law........." and Congress has, only the Supreme Court, in 1962,in its infinite stupidity has read into the Constitution something that is not there. Read the document.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 6:46:21 PM

Chaingang

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It's too well understood a principle to waste time arguing about it. Argue with the founders of our country if you like:

-----

Quick definition:
Deism: [1]deúism. noun. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

-----

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles March 9, 1790

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin, in Toward The Mystery

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford April 1, 1774

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew, Peter Carr

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of . . . Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"...denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian."
-- Ethan Allen, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religous opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-- Joel Barlow, Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, written during Washington's administration, ratified during Adams' administration.

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
-- John Adams

Further refs:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b44ab97110d.htm
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6177
http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to wnts2Bapet)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 7:25:14 PM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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Oh yes. The age old Seperation stupidity.

What it has to do with the OP, though, I guess we will never know.

As far as the ACLU goes, I do not trust them, nor respect them, at all.

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Chaingang)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 8:17:31 PM

Chaingang

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In the United States, separation of church and state is sometimes believed to be in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and by legal precedents interpreting that clause, some extremely controversial. The Establishment Clause states that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" However, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the Fourteenth Amendment (one of the Reconstruction Amendments) makes the Establishment Clause and other portions of the Bill of Rights binding on state and local governments as well, although it is arguable that this restriction on state and local government existed in Article VI of the unamended Constitution and that the Fourteenth Amendment was a clarification on the limitation of government power. Many other democratic governments around the world have similar clauses in their respective constitutions.

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, but rather is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, quoting the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, he writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Letter to Danbury Baptists (1802)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

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If you are going to build a war memorial, it has to be inclusive and not religion specific. So a cross on a state built war memorial is inappropriate. The linked to article makes much of a perceived "...religious heritage given to us by our Founding Fathers..." but the only heritage they left us in that category is The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution that states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

End of fucking story. Sorry, but most of the significant Founding Fathers thought Christianity was a load of shit.

SirKenin: Do please educate yourself before opening your mouth about matters you know nothing about and simply do not concern you as the citizen of another country.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to SirKenin)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 8:35:23 PM

Lordandmaster

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Please. There are all kinds of things that are basic to our political culture and aren't enumerated specifically in the Constitution. The framers anticipated this, and deliberately left the document open-ended. Oh, yeah, and those were the same framers who explained what they meant by separation of Church and State in their other writings. Have you ever read the Federalist Papers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wnts2Bapet

if anyone finds the phrase "separation of church and state" ANYWHERE in the constitution, please let me know. no such animal. the first amendment says nothing about that particular phrase. it simply says "Congress shall make no law........." and Congress has, only the Supreme Court, in 1962,in its infinite stupidity has read into the Constitution something that is not there. Read the document.

(in reply to wnts2Bapet)

Post #: 7

RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 9:10:09 PM

KenDckey

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The point of the article was that the ACLU gets money from the government even when they do pro bono cases. Had nothing to do with seperation.

As to the seperation, why haven't they attacked the symbols in our national cemetaries? Why haven't they attacked the having chaplains in government at all levels? Why haven't they attacked those that wear religious symbols while working with or enforcing public rules? I believe the reason is that they don't believe their own retoric and only want to make money from it.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 9:17:20 PM

Lordandmaster

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The ACLU is a non-profit organization.

So much for that theory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I believe the reason is that they don't believe their own retoric and only want to make money from it.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 9

RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/23/2006 9:17:30 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
As to the seperation, why haven't they attacked the symbols in our national cemetaries? Why haven't they attacked the having chaplains in government at all levels?

You should write to them and to your legislators and complain about those egregious acts of religious favoritism. i know of several others also requiring attention. All in due time...

As far as receiving money for pro bono work, I'd have to know more about how the cases are taken on case by case. It's possible the lawyers work pro bono but also seek monies to further the cause of the ACLU which probably has very real clerical and administrative needs that must be met.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to KenDckey)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 2:42:05 AM

Kedicat

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This is no different than individual lawyers receiving a cut of the settlement is it?
If the ACLU is providing the legal representation at their risk and cost, why should they not get the same or similar rewards and risks?
If the case is lost, they bite the costs.
Seems it is a highlight of anti ACLU when it is just standard procedure for all.

In the cases filed by the ACLU, why is that any different either? A person or other entity able to sue is equally able to receive the proceeds of winning. Or the costs of losing. Corporations can file suit and take the same chances. And the State files charges against various individuals and entitys everyday.

< Message edited by Kedicat -- 9/24/2006 2:47:34 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 3:24:14 AM

MrrPete

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As long as there's finals you'll never take prayer out schools.

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Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 5:35:55 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

This is no different than individual lawyers receiving a cut of the settlement is it?
If the ACLU is providing the legal representation at their risk and cost, why should they not get the same or similar rewards and risks?
If the case is lost, they bite the costs.
Seems it is a highlight of anti ACLU when it is just standard procedure for all.

In the cases filed by the ACLU, why is that any different either? A person or other entity able to sue is equally able to receive the proceeds of winning. Or the costs of losing. Corporations can file suit and take the same chances. And the State files charges against various individuals and entitys everyday.

I wouldn't disagree with you in principle. But most of these cases do not have monetary damages. It is over whether it should be allowed to exist at it's current location.

(in reply to Kedicat)

Post #: 13

RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 6:06:57 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I wouldn't disagree with you in principle. But most of these cases do not have monetary damages. It is over whether it should be allowed to exist at it's current location.

So the ACLU and its clients should be unable to recover costs in a case even in the face of extreme delaying tactics and bad faith negotiations, as in the San Diego case? What about in cases where a school board takes blatantly illegal actions but somebody actually has to take them to court to get it changed, as was the case in the Dover, PA case?

The threat of being made to pay legal fees is one of the very few effective ways to have an impact on certain government functionaries and bodies. Do something blatantly unconstitutional that most of the community approves of and even if you lose the case to the ACLU you can likely get reelected. However let the tax payers find out your pig headedness has cost them a few million in legal fees and you can kiss your political career goodbye.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 14

RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 6:37:12 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I wouldn't disagree with you in principle. But most of these cases do not have monetary damages. It is over whether it should be allowed to exist at it's current location.

So the ACLU and its clients should be unable to recover costs in a case even in the face of extreme delaying tactics and bad faith negotiations, as in the San Diego case? What about in cases where a school board takes blatantly illegal actions but somebody actually has to take them to court to get it changed, as was the case in the Dover, PA case?

The threat of being made to pay legal fees is one of the very few effective ways to have an impact on certain government functionaries and bodies. Do something blatantly unconstitutional that most of the community approves of and even if you lose the case to the ACLU you can likely get reelected. However let the tax payers find out your pig headedness has cost them a few million in legal fees and you can kiss your political career goodbye.

I am only saying that taking money for services that weren't rendered is wrong.

(in reply to DomKen)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 6:42:27 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I am only saying that taking money for services that weren't rendered is wrong.

In what way is winning the case not rendering services? Isn't winning the case, in fact, proof of such service?

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"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 6:47:24 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I am only saying that taking money for services that weren't rendered is wrong.

First off if the lawyers involved chose to work pro bono that doesn't mean the investigators, secretaries, paralegals etc. that worked on those cases shouldn't get paid. Also expert witnesses have to be paid and their expenses covered. If none of that was recoverable then how would a group of parents who opposed having creationism taught in a public high school defeat a school board and a deep pockets far right christian legal center?

(in reply to KenDckey)

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RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 6:57:30 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I am only saying that taking money for services that weren't rendered is wrong.

First off if the lawyers involved chose to work pro bono that doesn't mean the investigators, secretaries, paralegals etc. that worked on those cases shouldn't get paid. Also expert witnesses have to be paid and their expenses covered. If none of that was recoverable then how would a group of parents who opposed having creationism taught in a public high school defeat a school board and a deep pockets far right christian legal center?

Case was paid for by the pro bono lawyers. Didn't say it was wrong in all cases.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 18

RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 6:58:44 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I am only saying that taking money for services that weren't rendered is wrong.

In what way is winning the case not rendering services? Isn't winning the case, in fact, proof of such service?

Case was pro bono Has nothing to do with winning or losing.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 19

RE: War Vets call on Americans to Urge Congress To Prec... - 9/24/2006 7:03:08 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I am only saying that taking money for services that weren't rendered is wrong.

First off if the lawyers involved chose to work pro bono that doesn't mean the investigators, secretaries, paralegals etc. that worked on those cases shouldn't get paid. Also expert witnesses have to be paid and their expenses covered. If none of that was recoverable then how would a group of parents who opposed having creationism taught in a public high school defeat a school board and a deep pockets far right christian legal center?

Case was paid for by the pro bono lawyers. Didn't say it was wrong in all cases.

No, actually in the Dover, PA case the lawyers didn't work pro bono.

But in case where lawyers take a case pro bono they aren't saying they'll pay all the expenses of the case out of their own pockets. All they are doing is agreeing to not personally get paid for the case. It simply impossible for public interest legal groups to function if every one invloved has to work for free.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 20

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