Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (Full Version)

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SadistCpl4fslv -> Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 7:47:05 PM)

I began this thread in response to "BDSM Definitions?"  I originally intended to post my thoughts there and as I realized that I was getting a little too long winded and also chasing a rabit, I felt that the line I was taking needed it's own discussion.  As a disclaimer:  I do not pretend to be the "know all" of the lifestyle and as such I don't expect everyone to agree with me on all points.  These are mearily my own opinions, for what they are worth, and I am certainly open minded to diverging opinions.
It is my opinion that the biggest problem facing the bdsm community at large, whether in real or in cyber but especially in cyber, is one of misunderstanding and misconception of the "labels" we us to identify ourselves within the lifestyle to those who don't know us.  One small point on the term "label".  I know there are those of you that don't like it and if you have a better term I am all ears.  But this hang up is one of symantics and really just a PC dodge.  We all use labels everyday in the real world.  We call them job titles.  They inform others, in general terms, what it is we do to make a living.  They DO NOT give specific details as to what we do, but they do draw specific boundries with no room for misunderstanding of our careers.  When you say that you are a Banker, nobody confuses that you are in reality a Fireman.  Now you may be a loan officer in the bank, but that individual detail does not exclude you from being in the banking industry nor does it identify you as being in some other industry.  To a certain extent, the bdsm lifestyle and the labels we use should work the same way.
The problem is that since the advent of the internet and the prolification of information that it has incouraged, both good AND bad, there has been a bluring of those labels to the extent that they have now become interchangable and generally speaking are on the verge of loosing their meaning all together.  Because of this there has been a rampant and increasing trend of misunderstanding and misuse of the terms both online and in real that has led to many many hurtful, disappointing, disasterous, and even sometimes dangerous situations in relationships.  Here is a couple of hypothetical scenarios that are a reflection that is going on not only on CM but virtually everywhere that people are meeting and getting together in the lifestyle. 1) A girl says she is a slave when she is in reality a submissive.  A Master contacts her, whether it is on a personals site like CM or in a bdsm chat channel, looking for a slave.   They don't spend much time talking about what it is they really are wanting, and that is the first mistake.  They assume by the labels they use that that is what they are representing themselves as.  They get together for play and expecting to have a slave the Master demands service from her.  Taken totally by surprise, the girl refuses and the conflict begins.  2) A man says that he is a Dominant, but in reality he is a Top.  A submissive who desires and needs the guiding care of a Dominant contacts him and, as is so often the case, they get together without really understanding or coming to agreement as to what each is really desiring in the relationship.  When expecting that the man will take the lead, the submissive finds herself frustrated at the fact that she is in actuality giving him direction as to how to Dominate her.  And as these are just two hypothetical and general scenarios, the combinations of misunderstandings are endless and envolve all parties including Sadist and Masochist.  My opinion as to how a lot of this has happened is the deluge of misinformation and frankly many times reckless ignorance being spouted far and wide by those "all knowing" but no sound experience or prudent research, and the acceptance of such misinformation by "newbies" without careful consideration from many reliable sources, both written and experiential.
Having said all of this, It is my considered opinion that definitions to our lifestyle labels are nothing more than abstract concepts with no real lasting value WITHOUT considering the philosophies behind them and the individual personality traits that lead us all to identify with them.  IMHO I believe at the core of any bdsm relationship, with the exception of switches, are two specific personalities of which one is natural and unique to each of us.  Those being Dominant and Submissive.  We see these two personalities played out everyday;  between children on the playground, moguls in the board room, and politicians all around the world.  I say that one of those traits is a natural part of each personality, but I also believe that the other trait can be developed to a point, or even forced into usage.  Case in point:  I am a Dominant by nature and personality, I always have been and it is such a natural part of me that I don't even think about it.  That fact alone has gotten me in trouble over the years especially as a child......LOL   However,  because I work for those who are in authority over me, I must submit to them everyday.  And we all have situations like this.  We all must submit to the laws of our land, or pay the penalty.  And, mothers who are submissive by nature also excercise Dominance of their children, or at least they should.
So how does this apply to the labels we use in the lifestyle?  In my opinion, these two personalities are what make up the core of bdsm relationships, as well as all relationships.  From them come philosophies as to how we desire to excersise those traits and react to them as well.  In my mind, where the real confusion comes into play is when there is no clear and generally standard philosophy attached to the definitions we use for the labels.  In my mind, a submissive is different from a slave not necessarily because of what they do in the relationship, but because there is a difference in philosophy in the relationship.  To me, the philosophy of Dominant/submissive is one of mutual benefit built upon agreeed desires and goals in which one party leads, guides, teaches, and mentors the other through many diverse and individual means towards the enrichment and growth of the other as a person.  It is an exchange of power, however the focus of that exchange is for the benefit of the submissive.  In contrast, I view the philosophy of Master/slave as that in which the focus is entirely on the benefit of the Master.  That is not to say that caring, kindness, respect, love, and benefit have no room in the relationship.  I am only saying that in my view that is not the focus and therefore inconsequential.  A slave, to me, is a personality that thrives, desires, derives strength and fulfillment from the service they give to another without the expectation of anything in return.  On the other hand, a submissive is one that desires, needs, and expects a Dominant to focus on her benefit and positive progression towards growth and enrichment in her own life.  Now before you all get excited and start to pile the wood around the stake to burn me on, I am only talking in general terms and recognizing that there are crossing elements in both and acknowledgement of individual variation :)
Now that this is really long winded and I applaud you if you were able to muddle all the way through it.  I have not even touched on philosophies concearning Dominants as opposed to Masters, Tops and Bottoms, Sadist and Masochist, and Switches (which I think are the most difficult to understand, and I say that because my wife is one).  However,  I think this is a good start for serious dialogue that IMHO is way way overdue in the lifestyle.
Respectfully,
RazeSadisticCane




spanklette -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 8:03:57 PM)

Using your example, if you were to apply for a job at the bank, before you started you would know the precise job description. That is the purpose of the application and interview process. It should be the same way in all SM and D/s relationships, although it obviously is not. The problem is not the definition of the words, but the amount we rely on the words themselves.
 
Each of us has a personal view of ourselves and our place in the lifestyle. That view should be communicated effectively, including our own definitions of words. Maybe the words are arbitrary, but they're close enough for those who take the time to get to know someone before jumping in head first. 
 
It's like trying to divide organisms into genus, species, family, and phyllum. Some fit into more than one...it doesn't change the nature of the organism. The filing system is arbitrary but it gets everyone on the same page.  




juliaoceania -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 8:08:23 PM)

I feel that in general your examples of slaves misidentifying and tops misidentifying is not going to help if they use the right labels. It is best to be specific about your needs before involving yourself in any relationship, whether BDSM or otherwise. Everyone should have a mental list of what they want in a partner, compare it to what they see in someone they meet. They talk about common goals, common kinks, shared philosophies... there is no label that is a shortcut for this communication.

I never looked at the label someone called themselves to weed them out, except I was not too keen on self proclaimed masters. If someone called themselves a top/sir/lord/daddy it was all the same to me, I wanted to know the person, not the label. The label did not tell me if they were into pain play, if they liked bondage, whether or not they wanted me on my knees 24-7 and expected me to call them Lord King of the Universe in front of my vanilla family members. Or if they thought strict firm training with heavy protocol was their bag.

If you are playing with people you have not negotiated with completely that is where the misunderstanding came from, not the label. A label should not give you the idea that you have the right to do things that have not been negotiated in advance, even with a slave.

Just my thoughts





SadistCpl4fslv -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 8:30:03 PM)

I couldn't agree with you both more, and as I stated, the first mistake is not communicating enough before hand.  We do rely on the labels too much, however in this day and age it is almost a necessary evil and at least at this time the first impression that we have in identifying one another.  I think what I was trying to get across the most is not the importance of the label but the importance of the philosophy.




spanklette -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 8:36:52 PM)

I'm confuzzled...the philosophy behind the label? The philosophy behind the definition? Personal philosophy?
 
Either way, communication and common sense would avert most of the drama that people find themselves in the middle of.




SadistCpl4fslv -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 8:51:39 PM)

Well personal philosophies are always going to vary no matter what one does and that is as it should be, but I think that there could be general philosophies behind the labels and definitions that at least gives a starting point for dialogue without a lot of wasteful intrigue.  Now I only speak of my on experiences so that is what I rely on, but I find the whole business of communicating online, by whatever means you use, is tricky at best and never a given.  In real I can get a good feel of what a persons philosophy and orientation really is in the lifestyle because I not only have their words at my disposal but also eye contact, body language, and many other factors.  Online the only thing to rely on is text and that is all it is.  But I have also been able to connect with people much easier and strongly with those that have similar philosophies and I bet if you think about it you do as well.




spanklette -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 9:03:30 PM)

Actually, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not sure it matters. This is one of the hurdles of communicating online. Language is an evolving thing and so are we. Care and effort has to be put into communication regardless of definition or philosophies. There aren't any shortcuts for communication. And, communication requires listening to what people say or don't say.

There's no Magic 8 ball that is going to tell us what other people mean. There's no Rosetta stone for us. If I want to know what someone means when they describe themselves as a slave, well, I ask them. And, I'll keep asking questions until I'm sure that I understand. Keep in mind, I didn't say "agree". 




SadistCpl4fslv -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 9:10:46 PM)

I see nothing for us to disagree on.  I do the same thing when talking to a prospective slave, yet I have also found that online it is easier to talk a good talk and even fool for a good amount of time because there is really no way of proving anything anyone says unless there is some kind of reality put into the communication.  But once again I do believe that communication consistently is the first and most important step, and common philosophies at least for me help to network with other like minded people.  And btw.....you don't have to agree.....who knows, you might end up winning me over ;)




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 9:19:28 PM)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_566727/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#566808
Are we defined only by our labels?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_515260/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#515339
labels!!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_211188/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#211207
A question about labels




SadistCpl4fslv -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 9:23:36 PM)

Awwww.......come on LA........tell me whatcha really think <grin>




spanklette -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 9:25:56 PM)

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just explaining that I don't need to agree with a definition to understand it.
 
As far as online is concerned, common definitions won't make someone more honest or more suitable. Time and patience will generally take care of those problems.




BD123 -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 10:44:47 PM)

With out labels and definitions, society would not function. Take any word and look it up in a dictionary (several) and thedefinition will vary; however most people will have a fairly good idea of its meaning. Don't get hung up on exact terminology, life is too short.




amayos -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/26/2006 11:13:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistCpl4fslv

It is my opinion that the biggest problem facing the bdsm community at large, whether in real or in cyber but especially in cyber, is one of misunderstanding and misconception of the "labels" we us to identify ourselves within the lifestyle to those who don't know us. One small point on the term "label". I know there are those of you that don't like it and if you have a better term I am all ears. But this hang up is one of symantics and really just a PC dodge.

[...]I think this is a good start for serious dialogue that IMHO is way way overdue in the lifestyle.


Without a doubt, there is a great deal of misinterpretation, or shall we say, a very "wide tolerance" allotted to terms in BDSM. I will steal the thunder of popular opposing wisdom for but a moment, and suggest that what you touch upon has nothing to do with labels at all, if one gets to the crux of your points. The heart of your post does has everything to do with what words mean, and how we have lost the art of honoring them. I have always contended that words do mean things—that they have definitions and verifiable standards, that at least some who practice master and slave are not drowning in an ocean of "relative truth." There is such a thing as true and not true, authentic and counterfeit. There is a boundary or a line or a limit to how far one can stretch a word, even if this reality is painful to some.




Dnomyar -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 5:00:11 AM)

This whole thing can be summed up in one word. Communication. Without it talk to my hand.




Celeste43 -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 6:26:35 AM)

Your example of a first play meet between a slave and an owner leaves me shaking my head. Just because she identifies as a slave doesn't mean she has accepted him as her owner. She isn't a box of cereal on a store shelf available to be bought by anybody. She isn't his slave until she agrees to be. If he's such an idiot that he expects she will do every extreme fantasy he has without her knowing about his limits and skill level, that's his problem. And if she uses a safeword in the middle of the scene and walks out on him, it doesn't mean she couldn't be a slave to someone else who does not misrepresent his interests, limits, abilities and value system.




SadistCpl4fslv -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 6:58:55 AM)

First of all I have to state that I am starting to get a little sick an tired of the labelophobia that is going around.  I mean, honestly!  We label EVERYTHING.  And we have definitions for EVEYTHING.   Both labels and definitions are APART of communication.  This is exactly how language works.  Without definitions the words are totally unintelligable.  This is just another stark example, IMHO, of how the mainstream Politically Correct crowd has seaped into the philosophies of the lifestyle.  That same mainstream that says our lifestyle is deviant and perverse.

Celeste......no offense, but your pretty naive about what is actually going on in real.  To say she should have, or he shouldn't have and that is their own fault is over simplifying the matter.  It is far more complex than that and the bottom line is people are still getting hurt......BADLY.  It seems to me there are a lot of people sticking their head in the sand instead of facing the fact that their is a real problem in the community at large.  All you have to do is read the damn newspapers.




juliaoceania -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 7:01:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BD123

With out labels and definitions, society would not function. Take any word and look it up in a dictionary (several) and thedefinition will vary; however most people will have a fairly good idea of its meaning. Don't get hung up on exact terminology, life is too short.


This is true, but we have many kinds of categories. A tree is a tree, but there are 1000s of kinds of trees. Some have leaves and some have needles, some bear fruit and some do not. Some are soft wood and some have hardwood...In order to know about a certain tree, you have to find out more about it. Just because it is a tree does not mean it is the kind of tree you want.

I think that while someone can identify themselves as some kind of top or bottom, only in talking to them can you determine what kind of top or bottom they are.




littlesarbonn -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 7:04:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BD123

With out labels and definitions, society would not function. Take any word and look it up in a dictionary (several) and thedefinition will vary; however most people will have a fairly good idea of its meaning. Don't get hung up on exact terminology, life is too short.


Define "short". [:)]




Celeste43 -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 7:06:05 AM)

I'm not naive. I was addressing one specific item in your op, to wit a first play meet wherein a self labeled slave refused to cede ownership on the first date. To be honest, expecting someone to do so smacks of HNG.

People get hurt in all walks of life, vanilla chocolate or tutti-fruity. It is expected that as people grow they will learn from their experiences and become wiser in their choices. And when they do make a bad choice by ignoring a red flag? They should be wise enough to run for the hills, lick their wounds and when they have healed come back into the dating game with their eyes open, not closed so they can make the same mistake repeatedly.




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Philosophies concearning BDSM labels....or chasing the perverbial rabit (9/27/2006 7:28:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I'm not naive. I was addressing one specific item in your op, to wit a first play meet wherein a self labeled slave refused to cede ownership on the first date. To be honest, expecting someone to do so smacks of HNG.

People get hurt in all walks of life, vanilla chocolate or tutti-fruity. It is expected that as people grow they will learn from their experiences and become wiser in their choices. And when they do make a bad choice by ignoring a red flag? They should be wise enough to run for the hills, lick their wounds and when they have healed come back into the dating game with their eyes open, not closed so they can make the same mistake repeatedly.


I have to believe that teachers of any subjects in this world do not have the same philosophy that you do. It's true that people get hurt daily in everyday living simply because accidents happen... but if it happens because some poor sucker was lead to believe the bull shit that is spread so thickly around wiitwd and that words have personal meanings and it's ok to ignore what the actual definition is, or as SadistCpl4slv put it so eloquently... the philosophy behind the definition of the word then we, as a group, take the hit. Especially when some of those that make that bad choice based on poor information do NOT get the chance to step back and lick their wounds because they are to busy being buried.
 
This isn't about personal choices and the mistakes that happen along the way, this is about accurate information. If a sapling was attending school and came home with math homework and asked you for help... exactly how pissed off would you be if they informed you that what you thought was right no longer was? You know... maybe in that particular teachers eyes 4+4=9 and multiplication wasn't really all that important so she decided not to teach it anymore? There is no difference... bad information is bad information and someplace along the line someone is going to end up suffering for it.
 
Is that really all you got out of that entire post? You focused on the one worst case scenerio? What about the philosophy behind it?
 
Jewel




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