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RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:56:43 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.   


Interesting way of looking at it, ExSteel.  Assuming that it is true, and the more thought I give to it, the more that I see that it could be, I can see the validity of what you are saying.  But...given the validity, then I have only my instincts to fall back on and my instincts tell me that in most cases to go the opposite of what they expect.  However, now using this insight, perhaps the opposite of what they expect may just be the opposite of the opposite they were expecting as the 'intent' is the thing.


OMG! LOL!  The scary thing is...that i actually understand this, and agree to some extent! *grin...sitting here waiting for my truck to come back from the garage...ugh...lol


~smilin'~  Always good to know that a submissive is starting to get you...  And whaddaya mean, that's scary???


hehehe...when it starts gettin levels deep, and i find i am following along without difficulty,well, ya know how those ole mad scientists used to wax philo and get lost in their heads...lol...i have a tendency to do that, and understand...while most folks around me get lost...it makes me wonder...either i am intelligent, or i am plain looney.  That is the scary part...lol...figuring out which one i am at times...*grin silly today i know...sitting here bored waiting for my truck to be finished at the garage...yuck...

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 7:59:34 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

Part of this muckety-muck is because we so often confuse the terms

DISCIPLINE

with

PUNISHMENT.

Punishment is corrective action for an infraction or enforcement of rules.  As defined: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure.

And while one of the dictionary definitions of discipline *is* punishment, many actually use discipline as one of it's alternate definitions: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character.

Teaching a lesson or taking corrective action with something other than the adverse seems a bit meaningless to me, but then again, I'm one who makes them go out and cut the switch from the forsythia bush or the apple tree themselves.....






I thought the dictionary definitions would be helpful here

punish

1 a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
2 a : to deal with roughly or harshly b : to inflict injury on : HURT
intransitive verb : to inflict punishment


discipline

1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity


You can use punishment as a form of discipline I suppose, which is rough disasterous treatment, but that is only one aspect...the discipline corrects, punishing someone is punitive also.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/30/2006 8:00:21 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MisPandora)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 8:23:55 AM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		Two words that make the difference.

FEAR You leave a girl bound over the horse for an hour to think about why she's there. The only thing she has to look at, is the cane that's going to be applied to her thighs when the time on the clock runs out.

Agony Punishments don't involve a warm up, they aren't touchy feely erotic moments. Those strokes are laid down with a cold method that makes the displeasure very clear-while reminding her WHY she is getting the pain.

(in reply to charismagirrl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 8:25:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

Two words that make the difference.

FEAR You leave a girl bound over the horse for an hour to think about why she's there. The only thing she has to look at, is the cane that's going to be applied to her thighs when the time on the clock runs out.

Agony Punishments don't involve a warm up, they aren't touchy feely erotic moments. Those strokes are laid down with a cold method that makes the displeasure very clear-while reminding her WHY she is getting the pain.


I will send this post to my Daddy... it sounds like a hot scene!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 9:29:18 AM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I prefer to be treated as an adult, therefore I act as an adult.  It is imperative that I understand all the rules and behaviors which I will be required to abide by before I submit.  Once I have agreed, I take my responsibilities seriously; i.e. I follow the rules! 
If I make an honest mistake, or have a momentary lapse of judgment, a discussion with my master is all that is required to put me back on track. Yes, it can be seen as a warning, but there is no doubt in my mind that severe consequences would befall me if I did not heed that warning.
The only punishable offense would be a deliberate disobedience to an agreed upon rule.  If such occurs on a regular basis there are greater problems in the dynamic than 'what will work as punishment?' 
I do like pain, and I agree there are certainly levels of pain that I would not enjoy.  However, it seems to me that focusing on punishment is negative, whereas a discussion on how to get positive results would better serve..
I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment. 



I opened this thread in a gingerly fashion, mostly expecting to see more of the usual baloney about how couples who engage in punishment are immature, unevolved, etc. Then instead I saw a really insightful post, and another and another. A really worthwhile thread shaping up. Not till the quoted bit from catize did we see the glimmer of "my kink/relationship style is okay, yours is deficient" come over the horizon.

I appreciate the restraint that catize showed in her disparagement, but: "I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment." really does strike me as implictly disparaging. It also strikes me as unimaginative. There are all sorts of orientations one can have to punishment which are just not captured by the implication that anyone who builds punishment into a relationship is relying on fear to do a job which can and should be done better--for all people and in all relationships--by something else.

Is it so hard to make room for a sentence like: "I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do so," catize? Do you believe that some uncomplicated, black and white notion like fear vs. fulfillment can charcterize the issue?

Among the many posts I'm grateful for here is the one which introduced the notion of atonement, which is for me a powerful notion. I'd like to read more about this in the present context. I think there is a wonderful cluster of concepts--mirroring a wonderful cluster of aspects of the human experience--which cluster can include punishment and atonement as well as alienation/reconciliation, penance--in a sense that is more aspirational then punitive, discipline, and communion.

If someone from the Emotional Safety Police feels the need to point out that each of these things can and has been historically misused, and then argue therefore that these things are bad or deficient or anyway not to be explored, you point is uninteresting. Every grownup should know and see the ubiquity of danger. Science and beauty and eating and breathing all can be and have been misused with absolutely horrible results. The wonder of miracles, as someone said, is that they are reversable.

If punishment doesn't fit you or your relationship, that's fine. Please don't be too quick to pounce on those different than you for what you presume are deficiencies. Depending on the road you are travelling you must choose an appropriate vehicle. Isn't this right? Maybe punishment isn't a vehicle that assists advancement on your stretch of road. That's coo. Just be careful about assuming that your stretch of road is actually ahead of all of those where punishment works, works perhaps in ways you have never experienced and don't understand.

To impose your values and preferred modes on others, especially based upon highly questionable assumptions ("oh grow up and leave this rudimentary, fear-based punishment thing behind") is a dangerous thing for anyone to do, much less someone whose very presence here shows that she would throw off society's ignorant assumptions and negative judgements about her own chosen path across life.

Of course you, catize, stopped short of imposition, but I don't think you quite stopped short of admonishment.

One final point:

As to: "a discussion with my master is all that is required to put me back on track.

What an impoverished life it would be if everyone in every case stopped exactly at the line of "what is required." I won't bother to ask in what sense you meant the word "required" beacuse that in itself could be a can of worms. I'll trust that for someone as bright and sensitive as you the standard you have in mind includes the personal fulfillment of you and your partner. I will point out that a certain amalgam of calories, vitamins, minerals and roughage may be all that is required for an adequately healthy diet but that this is not the end of the story of nourishment.

Some people orient themselves to eating in this austere way and find their self-expression and seek deeper fulfillment elsewhere. And that's fine. Other people take food as an occasion to ricjly celebrate life, or please themselves and others, or to express artistry or experience a mastery which goes beyond addressing basic bodily needs. That is good too, as I see it.

The foodies shouldn't disparage the food ascetics, saying that that the ascetics eat only what they must out a fear of death and disease, let's say. And the foodies should not insist that the monkish eater is missing out because the foodie can't know the meaning that the monk finds in his lentils.

Similarly the monkish eater should not disparage the foodie as a shallow sybarite or unevolved creature, at least not without an open-hearted attempt at communion across the table first.

My thanks to everyone, including catize, for contributing to this discussion.



(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 9:54:54 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

efore I act as an adult.  It is imperative that I understand all the rules and behaviors which I will be required to abide by before I submit.  Once I have agreed, I take my responsibilities seriously; i.e. I follow the rules! 
If I make an honest mistake, or have a momentary lapse of judgment, a discussion with my master is all that is required to put me back on track. Yes, it can be seen as a warning, but there is no doubt in my mind that severe consequences would befall me if I did not heed that warning.
The only punishable offense would be a deliberate disobedience to an agreed upon rule.  If such occurs on a regular basis there are greater problems in the dynamic than 'what will work as punishment?' 
I do like pain, and I agree there are certainly levels of pain that I would not enjoy.  However, it seems to me that focusing on punishment is negative, whereas a discussion on how to get positive results would better serve..
I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment. 



I opened this thread in a gingerly fashion, mostly expecting to see more of the usual baloney about how couples who engage in punishment are immature, unevolved, etc. Then instead I saw a really insightful post, and another and another. A really worthwhile thread shaping up. Not till the quoted bit from catize did we see the glimmer of "my kink/relationship style is okay, yours is deficient" come over the horizon.

I appreciate the restraint that catize showed in her disparagement, but: "I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment." really does strike me as implictly disparaging. It also strikes me as unimaginative. There are all sorts of orientations one can have to punishment which are just not captured by the implication that anyone who builds punishment into a relationship is relying on fear to do a job which can and should be done better--for all people and in all relationships--by something else.

Is it so hard to make room for a sentence like: "I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do so," catize? Do you believe that some uncomplicated, black and white notion like fear vs. fulfillment can charcterize the issue?

I don't work out of REAL fear, but rather the notion of fearful anticipation...mmmm....and we ALL know what that feels like, as we each have unique receptors for darker things, like fear, beautiful agony...and all as you personally deem it to be.

Among the many posts I'm grateful for here is the one which introduced the notion of atonement, which is for me a powerful notion. I'd like to read more about this in the present context. I think there is a wonderful cluster of concepts--mirroring a wonderful cluster of aspects of the human experience--which cluster can include punishment and atonement as well as alienation/reconciliation, penance--in a sense that is more aspirational then punitive, discipline, and communion.

Well expressed.

If someone from the Emotional Safety Police feels the need to point out that each of these things can and has been historically misused, and then argue therefore that these things are bad or deficient or anyway not to be explored, you point is uninteresting. Every grownup should know and see the ubiquity of danger. Science and beauty and eating and breathing all can be and have been misused with absolutely horrible results. The wonder of miracles, as someone said, is that they are reversable.

Happy accidents...from the PBS guy, as i have mentioned once before...it is always how life is received by the receiver...all are unique even in the minutia of perspective at times.

If punishment doesn't fit you or your relationship, that's fine. Please don't be too quick to pounce on those different than you for what you presume are deficiencies. Depending on the road you are travelling you must choose an appropriate vehicle. Isn't this right? Maybe punishment isn't a vehicle that assists advancement on your stretch of road. That's coo. Just be careful about assuming that your stretch of road is actually ahead of all of those where punishment works, works perhaps in ways you have never experienced and don't understand.

This is true for myself, i haven't the words, it seems at times the english language is not the right language to translate accurately all that happens inside my being...from deeply intimate experiences...just no right word fits at times...instead, one would have to be there to "read" my being.  That is why when folks write...i allow for this aspect...well...lol...at least to the best of my someytimes "moody" and hormonal states of being. *grin

To impose your values and preferred modes on others, especially based upon highly questionable assumptions ("oh grow up and leave this rudimentary, fear-based punishment thing behind") is a dangerous thing for anyone to do, much less someone whose very presence here shows that she would throw off society's ignorant assumptions and negative judgements about her own chosen path across life.

Of course you, catize, stopped short of imposition, but I don't think you quite stopped short of admonishment.

One final point:

As to: "a discussion with my master is all that is required to put me back on track.

What an impoverished life it would be if everyone in every case stopped exactly at the line of "what is required." I won't bother to ask in what sense you meant the word "required" beacuse that in itself could be a can of worms. I'll trust that for someone as bright and sensitive as you the standard you have in mind includes the personal fulfillment of you and your partner. I will point out that a certain amalgam of calories, vitamins, minerals and roughage may be all that is required for an adequately healthy diet but that this is not the end of the story of nourishment.

Nourishment is deeply experienced on many individually unique energetic levels of frequency, vibrations, etc., much to consider in this area.

My thanks to everyone, including catize, for contributing to this discussion.

Thank YOU Sir....:-)




(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 9:59:38 AM   
sapphirepleasure


Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline 		I've only experienced corporal punishment once, when I had seriously crossed a line, and it remains one of the most horrific but ultimately beneficial experiences I've ever had. 

At the time, I was very new to spanking, paddling, flogging, cropping--pain play of any kind, and was still learning to enjoy it and tolerate more.  For that reason, my dom tended to use other forms of punishment with me (such as having me sleep on the floor instead of with him in his bed).  When he punished me, I had hurt him and our relationship badly by my poor choice and there was a very real possibility that he would end things between us.

Instead he punished me severely, with a caning that left me marked for a week, and took me much further into pain than I'd ever been.  And I enjoyed nothing about it.

When it was over, I retreated in tears to the bed, struggling with so many feelings including shock that he would hurt me so badly even though I had obviously earned it.  But soon, he was beside me, stroking my hair and comforting me and telling me how well I'd done, taking all that he gave me and never once considering walking away.  (He hadn't bound me for just that reason, only gagged me and had me hold onto the window frame.)  Because of my blatant disobedience he had questioned whether he had any hold over me, but seeing me submit without question to the punishment which he intentionally made as bad as he thought I could handle, reassured him that I was still serious about my commitment and submission to him.

Our relationship changed and was cemented that night.  I had always known him to be a kind and fair man but I then knew that he would give me whatever I needed no matter how distasteful it was to me.  And he forgave me and never held it over my head and it truly did wash the slate clean between us.

He also told me that I would want to be caned again, and would find myself asking for it, not for punishment but for pleasure.  How wise of him to plant that seed of desire in me.  And of course, he was right, and I grew to love being marked by him and proud that I could take it.

I still remain much more motivated to please and totally determined to avoid doing anything that would merit punishment, and that's as it should be.

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 10:12:53 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The idea that you can't use pain to punish a masochist is one of the biggest and most pervasive false myths of the scene.

It's nothing to do with the pain- it's the mindset.  If the person has internalized the feelings of wrongdoing and understands the reasoning behind being delivered punishment, it will be an unpleasant experience.

That being said, if they've internalized the feelings and understand the reasoning, punishment tends to be just an additional exclamation point and not really necessary to the behavior training at all.  Most people use punishment as a catharsis, not as the actual behavioral modification.

Not to mention, you can always go over a masochists pain/pleasure threshhold. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 10:21:45 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Ah... sapphirepleasure, i enjoyed "reading" you. i can relate and  identify with so much of your expression. Thank you for sharing. :-)

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 10:28:04 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not into pain but the absolute worst punishment anyone could give me would be to tell me that I had disappointed them or done something wrong. It was like that when I was a kid. It's still like that. All someone has to do is say, "You did ......" in a tone of voice that says they were not pleased and I crumble. It sticks with me replaying in my head over and over. I don't need pain to cement it into me.

But that's just me and the way I'm wired. Slightly skewed and not quite "normal".

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 10:29:22 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The idea that you can't use pain to punish a masochist is one of the biggest and most pervasive false myths of the scene.

It's nothing to do with the pain- it's the mindset.  If the person has internalized the feelings of wrongdoing and understands the reasoning behind being delivered punishment, it will be an unpleasant experience.

That being said, if they've internalized the feelings and understand the reasoning, punishment tends to be just an additional exclamation point and not really necessary to the behavior training at all.  Most people use punishment as a catharsis, not as the actual behavioral modification.

Not to mention, you can always go over a masochists pain/pleasure threshhold. 


i have been pushed beyond my threshhold, and while i was able to withstand, and stand...become stoically distant...then back inside to droop a bit...then finally allowed to collapse into the arms of what i thought to be a mad man in that moment...i understood how receiving, translating and transfoming emotions into realities truly worked in my head.  It was a moment of mini epiphanies...one right after the other.  Something clicked.  Not that i feel i would ever wish to feel that experience again either. *ah...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 10:39:48 AM   
sapphirepleasure


Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
i have been pushed beyond my threshhold, and while i was able to withstand, and stand...become stoically distant...then back inside to droop a bit...then finally allowed to collapse into the arms of what i thought to be a mad man in that moment...i understood how receiving, translating and transfoming emotions into realities truly worked in my head.  It was a moment of mini epiphanies...one right after the other.  Something clicked.  Not that i feel i would ever wish to feel that experience again either. *ah...


Thank you, raiken.  And I can so identify with what you posted here.  It was much the same for me.  Thanks for sharing.

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 10:48:23 AM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		CP as a catharsis, thank you LA!   Exactly.   CP for atonement, yes!  thank you becca!

By the time W/we might get around to actual physical strokes for behavior, assured the behavior has been dealt with and corrected, or i wouldn't Be in the position of recieving ANy physical attention of any type.   Usually CP and play scening are done at the same time-- a warm up, THEN a drop back to CP, then a warm up for play, and they are decidedly different.  During this CP phase, i'm not allowed the slide into sub-space, it's metered to make sure i DONt ramp up with it.  it's miserable.  i know that is wildly different than for most; from what i gather, very few mix play and true CP in one session, except for faux punishment..   but He does it this way because He understands before i can fully surrender to the play strokes, i need to purge any residuals from times of being "separated by sin", if you use religious terms. 

i need to release grief and anger at myself, and feel taken in hand and my position reinforced, that i'm forgiven and still valuable and worthy property..  many things. i need to take worse than He would dole out for play just to feel like property, which is what cleans my slate.   It's saying "yes, I would still take you as My slave again." i come out of that thankful for His ownership of me and more sensitive to the standards He has for me.  THEN and only then am i ready to play for His pleasure and surrender to the things He likes to do.  Otherwise, i would NOt be able to stand whip.  (i hate that stingy shit.)

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 11:22:03 AM   
charismagirrl


Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		i am going through the atonement process now....
Atoning for (in as short a way as i can type it here)

Atoning for things i did prior to meeting my Daddy/Master...
Things that ultimately effect(ed) my surrender process or made/make it more difficult for him to obtain me and train me.
Things that were done from poor choices on my part.
Things that i also feel i need cleansing of (for lack of a better way to put it)

This isn't to say that he doesn't also take the time to talk to me about these things and to teach me different things after a lifetime of misinformation, but the punishment for atonement is also needed.

Edited for typo


_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

(in reply to charismagirrl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 11:25:30 AM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		i came back to make one other point...  Some of Y/you might remember my posting about having been a real shit during Masters last visit.  (pms, spatic expectations, just an overall no good) 

Anyway,  That would probably have warrented major CP..  but as i pointed out in the above post, if i'm not in good stead i'm not getting physical attn of any sort, good, bad, or indifferent.   This visit, six days, no scene.  not a spank, not a whip..  Even HusDom asked about why W/we hadn't gone to the dungeon, why no spank-play?   While everything was perfect in the visit, don't think that every day of that, i didn't have to fight from throwing myself on the floor begging "Please!  just beat me and heal this rift!"  

The worst punishment is knowing it's completely in His hands to choose WHEN to allow me that final healing process.. the denial of my clean slate is the reason i would beg for CP, not for the sensations, not even for the closure, but to know He's chosen to take me under again.

CP is precious to me because who else gets that except His property?  His choice to use it or not is what separates me from the other bottoms He might scene with at the home dungeon, only His sub and i have that one element of His nature.  In no way does it make me misbehave to get that, i'm quite sure if i were perfect in my eyes, there would still be reasons for punishment.

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 11:35:20 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.



Maybe a submissive would do this (I'd have relationships with submissives beyond occasional scenes) but I know that none of the slaves I have owned liked to be punished in any way, shape or form. They considered it a grave failure on their parts to be even told by me that I was displeased and punishment only added weight to the knowledge that they failed.

It also however gave them the opportunity to make amends and to be forgiven or to correct things. That they did appreciate but I do not believe they like it or enjoyed it in any fashion.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 11:44:33 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

i came back to make one other point...  Some of Y/you might remember my posting about having been a real shit during Masters last visit.  (pms, spatic expectations, just an overall no good) 

i do remember. hmmmm i wonder why....lol...i can understand.

Anyway,  That would probably have warrented major CP..  but as i pointed out in the above post, if i'm not in good stead i'm not getting physical attn of any sort, good, bad, or indifferent.   This visit, six days, no scene.  not a spank, not a whip..  Even HusDom asked about why W/we hadn't gone to the dungeon, why no spank-play?   While everything was perfect in the visit, don't think that every day of that, i didn't have to fight from throwing myself on the floor begging "Please!  just beat me and heal this rift!"  
 
Yes, the irony of this situation is that while when you are healthy, you receive it beneficially, and process it thus.  but if you receive pain when in the emotional/mental state you have described, it has the potential to become addictive in nature, and/or because it would be processed differently, in a way that may not be as beneficial to your state of well being. This has been my perspective thus far in this area for myself.

The worst punishment is knowing it's completely in His hands to choose WHEN to allow me that final healing process.. the denial of my clean slate is the reason i would beg for CP, not for the sensations, not even for the closure, but to know He's chosen to take me under again.

While i wouldn't interpret this in the exact same way, it is close enough to understand.

CP is precious to me because who else gets that except His property?  His choice to use it or not is what separates me from the other bottoms He might scene with at the home dungeon, only His sub and i have that one element of His nature.  In no way does it make me misbehave to get that, i'm quite sure if i were perfect in my eyes, there would still be reasons for punishment.


For some folks, at certain times or points in their intimacy, CP is a definite binder and cohesion, much like cement.

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 12:17:31 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		As a rule, when I'm hit it's a penalty, really . Certain actions on my part result in certain actions on his. It's rather matter of fact and simple. I don't get into breast-beating about it because it's cause and effect. If I want to avoid the penalty.....then I should avoid the action......mostly I do but sometimes I don't.

Letting him down would be rather different and it's extremely rare for me to do that.

agirl

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 12:41:46 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Since initially reading this thread, I've been doing more pondering and reflecting.  I would say that it all started with several prior posts on punishment.  As noted in my second post, I have lately been seeing where the use of something unexpected could be of great benefit.  I've also come to see that, at times, corporal punishment would be very effective...more so than I had previously thought.

I've had good reasons in the past for not doing so.  They are good reasons and some of them are still why I might choose not to use corporal punishment at times.  I can see where I;ve let these reasons become almost my own personal dogma and that is not always a good thing.  It is O.K. to shake up the personal dogma once in awhile as that is how we learn.  (tis a beautiful thing, isn't it...learning?).

So thanks to Noah and raiken and sapphirepleasure and Mavis, etc. for helping me further along my path to incorporating corporal punishment more often.  I am still working out in my head circumstances where I would be drawn more towards that than other behavior but I also know that a lot of times, the choice is going to be dependent on the submissive I am dealing with and not just what has been done.

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Punishment is Deceptive - 9/30/2006 12:48:37 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		My personal take, the expression of my displeasure before whatever act I use to punish is what has the effect.  Whether I sank someone or I lock them in a coset, the fact tat they are made to sit and think about what they have done to upset me, and think about how disappointed I am is the punishment.  I have found that making them sit and think about what they did and write an apology is usualy more of a punishment and more dreaded than any physical discipline I could ever mete out.

But thats just how I handle my pets.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to charismagirrl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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