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Collar conundrum - 1/18/2005 5:48:53 PM   
Suleiman


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I have already asked this question once recently, but it is buried in another thread, and the thread itself has been buried by recent activity. I have done a search of all threads on these fora which discuss the subject matter, and I have done a general web search as well. I can not find an answer to my question, and it is starting to bother me.

What is the origin of the concept of a training collar?

I am emphatically NOT asking whether this practice should be used, or if anyone in particular uses it. These boards are choked with opinion pieces on the subject. I want to know its history, its origin. I WANT SOURCES, DARN IT!!! (pauses for a moment in order to hop around cramped little office, pulling out tufts of hair)

I will accept anecdotal information, provided that it is given as an anecdote (i.e. "when my master put a training colar on me, he said that it was a tradition in this area, at around this time"). I would prefer to find more academic references, such as bibliography, fictional accounts, author's website, even an FAQ site that actually discusses the origin and history of this concept.

I do not care what the origin is, and in fact I am coming to suspect that there are multiple sources which have all converged into one pop culture conceptual icon. I want as much information as possible, so that I can attempt to form my own conclusion on this subject. I will, of course, be happy to share my conclusions, footnotes in hand and bibliography ready, with my fellow academenteds here, assuming that I ever have any conclusions to share.

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Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.
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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/18/2005 6:21:51 PM   
stef


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The first mention of a training collar on usenet (that wasn't a specific reference to the kind used for dog training) was in a story posted to alt.sex.bondage on 1/12/91. Unfortunately, it was just a passing reference.

I'll keep digging.

~stef

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(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/18/2005 6:31:19 PM   
Suleiman


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Thanks, Stef, much obliged.

~S

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/18/2005 8:00:24 PM   
MistressFire70


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This is what I have been able to find:

This site states that the Collar of Consideration is the first in a series of defined collars. Some hand waving is done saying that the collar system comes from Old Guard (this article is repeated again and again in various places):
http://www.leathernroses.com/generalbdsm/trainingcollar.htm

The same person, at a different site, then states that the Training Collar is the second in this series:
http://www.leathernroses.com/generalbdsm/trainingcollar.htm

Here is a transcript of an online interview with Gloria Brame who talks about the Training Collar, briefly:
http://gloria-brame.com/therapy/thrive_archive/thrv809.html

Hope these help some.

Fire


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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/19/2005 9:41:18 AM   
Suleiman


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The problem with attributing something to the "old guard" is, of course, the fact that there isn't really an old guard per se - or, depending on how one defines such things, there are several. Since none of the vaguely interrelated "pre-stonewall" societies were ever really of sufficient coherency to be an actual tradition, I tend to think of the old guard as a predominantly mythic ancestry to the modern BDSM scene, to which many things are attributed, often innacurately.

Thank you very much for the links, Fire, I look forward to reading them as soon as I get a chance.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to MistressFire70)
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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/19/2005 11:00:24 AM   
Suleiman


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So far no history, only explanations. I know WHAT it is, I know WHY some people do it. I want to know WHERE the idea comes from and WHEN did it become so fashionable.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/19/2005 12:35:01 PM   
mistoferin


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Your post piqued my curiousity on the issue of the training collar. It sent me on a long search. I am sorry to say though, that after about 4 hours of searching I came up with zip, nada, nothing. I found alot of articles relating to the purpose and use of a training collar.....but nothing on it's origin or time. I have been around for a fair amount of time but maybe someone who has been around this lifestyle longer than I could shed some light. I'd be more than a little interested now.

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/23/2005 2:25:36 PM   
Suleiman


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Well, now that's the thing that got me interested. I dove head-first into the san francisco queer/pagan/leather scene about twelve years ago. My early mentors and my first mistress were all older sorts who took the time to relate a fair amount of history so far as they knew it, and I got pointed in the directin of a few books that helped fill out my knowledge base. Now, I know enough about the various cliques in the region to have a pretty good idea that the history I was given had a number of holes in it, but even so, I never heard of anything like a training collar, here or abroad. The only explanation I can think of - and this is purely a guess with no factual basis to support it - is that the training collar convention began as part of the online community (with which I have had very little contact until recently), along with a number of other conventions which continue to confuse and annoy me.

The problem is, even with online conventions, there is some starting place from which the convention stems. At what point did somebody say "You're in training, this is my collar. You'll get a new collar when someone claims you as their full-time slave"? What prompted them to say it? Were they drawing from some literary form, or did it spring full-grown from someone's imagination, a newborn athena here to vex my academic desires?

Here's a followup question, then: When did you first hear about the idea of a training collar? Anybody?

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/23/2005 2:35:03 PM   
Paulnz


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I think you may find it hard to get a definitive reference. I suspect this will be because like a lot of obvious and good ideas, there will be a number of places where the idea sprang up, across continents and cultures.

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/23/2005 6:12:42 PM   
Mouthy


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For the little it's worth, I first heard of collars having "meaning" more than a decade after I'd first started wearing them for no better reason than that I liked the look. Specifically, I saw the chain and padlock Sid Vicious wore and, aspiring to being a tough little punk rocker in my own right (this was a couple decades ago, you understand), I went right out, bought one and began to copy him. (You know how it goes: I'm going to f*ck conformity and I'm going to f*ck conformity just like HE did .)

Years later I read a post in which a Dom expressed irritation that so many people made "fashion statements" out of something so meaningful to him and I was very surprised to learn that the BDSM community seemed to have co-opted something, and to have found something else to get in a lather over, that I just thought started among punk rockers. After all, I'd been wearing collars off and on for years, meaning nothing particular by it at all.

Is a puzzlement.

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/23/2005 8:27:34 PM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mouthy

For the little it's worth, I first heard of collars having "meaning" more than a decade after I'd first started wearing them for no better reason than that I liked the look. Specifically, I saw the chain and padlock Sid Vicious wore and, aspiring to being a tough little punk rocker in my own right (this was a couple decades ago, you understand), I went right out, bought one and began to copy him. (You know how it goes: I'm going to f*ck conformity and I'm going to f*ck conformity just like HE did .)

Years later I read a post in which a Dom expressed irritation that so many people made "fashion statements" out of something so meaningful to him and I was very surprised to learn that the BDSM community seemed to have co-opted something, and to have found something else to get in a lather over, that I just thought started among punk rockers. After all, I'd been wearing collars off and on for years, meaning nothing particular by it at all.

Is a puzzlement.


I like the idea of conformist non-conformity.

Sounds like a good story, and until someone comes up with some better facts I think I'll adopt it for myself as well (ie) the BDSMers stole the collar idea off the Punk Rockers.

Another idea - starched collars - from the English Public School system, all that corporal punishment mixed in there, had to be the start of something kinky.





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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/24/2005 10:12:25 PM   
Suleiman


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The sid vicious look did in fact happen more-or-less independantly of the BDSM use of collars as a means of marking property. However, I am secifically attempting to trace the idea of the training collar, which seems to have spread like a rash across the internet within the last ten years or so.

So far, I can only find online references to this concept - that is to say, I can not find references to the idea in any of the R/L cliques, scenes, or societies with which I am familiar. The online community typically attributes the training collar to an "old guard" convention (which is about as authoritative as attributing the goetia to King Solomon - but that's a completely different rant for a different forum all together), but without ever mentioning which old guard group, society, or movement.

I've been hoping to find some semi-modern bit of romantic fiction from which this idea originally stems, but so far I've come up a blank on this one. I'm starting to think the training collar tradition is an honest-to-goodness urban myth, self-perpetuating through the medium of internet debate forums.

Hmmm... I wonder if snopes has an adult search category...

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to Paulnz)
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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/25/2005 1:26:31 AM   
Dryon


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now i dont claim to know so this is just speculation on my part but i seem to remember (it has been some years since i read the books) that in John Norman's Gor series that when the girls were captured they were imeadiately collared and branded the brand was with few variations pretty much the same the world over but the collars were inscribed with the owners info in that case of a freshly captured girl from earth i belive was the favored hunting grounds lol it had that slave houses info on it and once they were satified with the quality of training they had given the slave they went on the block to be sold to thier (semi)permanate owners and from then on they wore that owners collar untill they were sold again or given away much like cars and car titles are treated

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/25/2005 3:10:30 AM   
Suleiman


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Yeah, checked that one, but as far as I can tell it seems to be a dead end, too. That was actually my top suspect. I could - and very well may be - wrong, since I can not bring myself to read an entire gor novel, much less the entire series (just one of my personal quirks), but that particular trivium has been debated to death both in this forum and in other circles. The concensus seems to be that while slave collars are de rigure a part of the slavery symbolism inherent to the gorean lifestyle, the concept of a training collar does not stem originally from the gor novels.

Thanks for the input, though. Even a dead end means I'm not searching in a vacuum.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to Dryon)
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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/25/2005 5:38:26 AM   
happypervert


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If I were desperately searching for the answer, the first place I'd look would be to see if "training collar" is a term used among folks who train dogs, and if it is then I'd assume it migrated from there.

Of course, since I'm not searching for the answer I'm not going to even bother googling it, but I'll at least toss the notion out there so you can consider the merits of looking in that direction.

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RE: Collar conundrum - 1/25/2005 5:58:32 AM   
onceburned


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quote:

I'd look would be to see if "training collar" is a term used among folks who train dogs


Hmmm... pet play! Perhaps it crossed over from those who do dog training of humans. Its not a topic I know anything about but a UK site
http://www.thedoghouse.org/
has been around since 1996 so maybe the people there might have a clue?

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RE: Collar conundrum - 2/2/2005 1:04:22 PM   
BeachMystress


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ok, I found some place that has a lot of BDSM history. I'm not going to dig through the site to find your answer, but I thought I'd provide you with the link. Good Luck

http://www.leatherarchives.org/exhibits/deblase/timeline.htm


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Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
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RE: Collar conundrum - 2/2/2005 6:57:45 PM   
merrymasochist


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here are some articles i found on the subject -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_%28BDSM%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM
http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/BDSMinfo/the_collar.htm
http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/BDSMinfo/the_collar_2.htm

good luck in your info search...

sincerely,
merry

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RE: Collar conundrum - 2/5/2005 7:48:04 AM   
DeadofKnight


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You may wish to see this definition for what you ask about.

http://www.steel-door.com/Training_Collar.html

Good luck

DoK

< Message edited by DeadofKnight -- 3/5/2005 9:23:43 AM >


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Knight
These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.

Mutually collared with hesterprynne

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RE: Collar conundrum - 2/5/2005 7:39:04 PM   
MistressDREAD


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quote:

I WANT SOURCES, DARN IT!!! (pauses for a moment in order to hop around cramped little office, pulling out tufts of hair)

Well Suliman,
You asked for it
and Ill give You some
Chronology of erotic
or posessive collars,
and boggle Your sulimind
lets say starting with:

quote:

1800 - William Dugdale from England is the first from His area to publish about Dominance and the ownership of the collar. He later becomes active in the erotica publishing trade between 1825 and c.1865 in London, which consists of translations, mainly by James Reddie, and reprints of erotic literature that had been previously published between 1825 and 1840 which include works about rules, regulations and proticals put together for the discriminating erotic Dominant.

1800 – Achille Devéria from France, known best for his illustrations of "Gamiani" and is concidered a Master at rope bondage, leather constraints which include collars and best known for writing the "Liasons Dangereuses" which discribes his Bondage which includes collars. His pen name was Choderlos de Laclos.

1807 – James Campbell Reddie of Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland, son of James Reddie and Charlotte Marion Campbell. Author, publisher, translator and collector of clandestine material which included an extensive whip and collar collection. He often supplies William Dugdale with manuscripts for publication. Reddie's erotica collection is bought by Henry Spencer Ashbee in 1877. Reddie also used the pseudonym C. Vernon Wilson. Reddie's death certificate lists his profession as "Writer to the Signet Erotic"

1809 – The British Prime Minister William Ewart Gladstone of Liverpool England. The four-time Prime Minister of England was dedicated to self-flagellation and self collaring for training and used both to punish himself for impure thoughts and to achieve a pleasure from the act, which he then repented. This is official printed facts archived in public Official Scripts of England.

18oo – The Marquis De Sade writes many concepts of collaring whilst training the woman he inflicted his desires apon while inprisioned befor his death.

pre 1600 De Figuris Veneris, a collection of ancient Greek and Roman texts referring to a great variety of sexual erotic behaviors which include great details of how slaves are collared and trained and punished while within the leather bindings.

1825 – William Lazenby [alias Duncan Cameron and possibly Thomas Judd] becomes bookseller and publisher of clandestine erotica and sm in London, actively between c.1873 and 1886. Sometime in 1884 he begins collaborating with Edward Avery. Lazenby was arrested in 1876 for "soliciting and inciting Charles Drew Harris to sell or publish certain obscene, wicked and lewd books" and again in 1886 when he was prosecuted and imprisoned at age 61 for "unlawfully selling in an open public shop certain lewd sm direction books, indecent photographs of pony girls no doubt in leather collars and other articles.

1828 – Theresa Berkley, the owner of a flagellation and sm brothel in Charlotte Street no. 28, London, has a special strap down and whipping bench constructed of wood and leather which becomes known as the "Berkley Horse". Upon her death the original Berkley Horse goes to the London "Society of Arts" for posterity.

1834 – Author of THE bibliography source book for 19th century erotica "The Bibliography of Prohibited Books", Henry Spencer Ashbee, writes. Ashbee owned or had access to the majority of the books he listed in the bibliography which gives details of the many erotic styles of the best known practictioners of such construded lewd and indecent actions including the proper application of collars to slaves and concubines for punishment or control.

1836 – The Austrian author and involuntary eponym of "masochism", Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch, of Lemberg, Galicia writes about his enslavement by his Mistress and his years under Her collar.

mmmmmmmmm I could go on for EVER however I know this much will take You litterally months to read up on and enjoy....... Heres to Open Roads and sqwinting eyes of the Trucker Bitch!!





< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 2/5/2005 7:40:54 PM >

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