RE: Amish School Shooting (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 10:08:13 AM)

Well, the BBC evening news just reported again.

Apparently the guy had molested girls when he was 12, and feared he would do it again and blamed God for his feelings.

Quite why this scenario means he should have done this is puzzling. He hated girls for "tempting" him to offend?

E



Rule -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 10:33:27 AM)

His mind must have been a battle field between his urge and need to molest and his conscience. I get it now. It must have been tough. A pity that he did not seek and get counseling.



NorthernGent -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 10:55:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Just heard it on the news... Just shocked and don't understand right now.   M


Hi M,

At least partially, celebrity is at play here. In 15 years time he'll be another bloke in a book that everyone is reading about just like we read about Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy and whoever else as we want to know about their childhood, their lives, their relationships etc.

These people are after fame or infamy whichever you prefer. They want to be celebrities, they want people to read about their lives and let's face it, it's far easier to go to a school and shoot people than it is to be Bill Gates.

The police did the best thing possible by not releasing the suicide note because that is exactly what the killer wanted - everyone to read about him and give him celebrity status. If we wean ourselves off celebrity and the urge to read about these macabre acts then it will act as a deterrent to would-be serial killers because partof their reason for doing this is fame - they want to be somebody, noticed by the rest of the world.

You have to say that we are helping to create this sort of world by putting celebrities on a pedestal. For as long as we do this there will be people who chase celebrity status through infamy.



LadyEllen -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 12:39:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

His mind must have been a battle field between his urge and need to molest and his conscience. I get it now. It must have been tough. A pity that he did not seek and get counseling.


Rule - for definite. But how could he have gone for counselling I wonder with this sort of problem? Its difficult to comprehend the turmoil in this guy between urges and the sanity to know his urges were wrong. I expect he was scared to death of being exposed even in confidential counselling, as a paedophile. The hatred for paedophiles is understandable and I confess I feel the same intense dislike for them, but if we allow that to reign then they will only hide deeper and run from any attempt to control them, out of fear for their own safety.

It were better had he felt able to come forward and be supervised.
E



LadyEllen -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 12:40:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Just heard it on the news... Just shocked and don't understand right now.   M


Hi M,

At least partially, celebrity is at play here. In 15 years time he'll be another bloke in a book that everyone is reading about just like we read about Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy and whoever else as we want to know about their childhood, their lives, their relationships etc.

These people are after fame or infamy whichever you prefer. They want to be celebrities, they want people to read about their lives and let's face it, it's far easier to go to a school and shoot people than it is to be Bill Gates.

The police did the best thing possible by not releasing the suicide note because that is exactly what the killer wanted - everyone to read about him and give him celebrity status. If we wean ourselves off celebrity and the urge to read about these macabre acts then it will act as a deterrent to would-be serial killers because partof their reason for doing this is fame - they want to be somebody, noticed by the rest of the world.

You have to say that we are helping to create this sort of world by putting celebrities on a pedestal. For as long as we do this there will be people who chase celebrity status through infamy.


What!?



NorthernGent -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 1:18:42 PM)

It is a twisted form of celebrity status. That is what they want and that is what they get. Walk in any book shop and you'll see racks and racks of books on these people on everything from childhood girlfriends to first car. A complete and utter analysis of their lives. It is this exact twisted celebrity status/infamy/notoriety that they crave.

A sane person could not understand what drives these deranged people. Do some reading on experts who have profiled these people and even got to know them in prison and it will tell you what drives them.

There is a school of thought which supports this view as mentioned in the following article from a US university:

http://www.mundanebehavior.org/issues/v1n2/dugdale.htm

An extract as follows:

Consider the current debates about "Son of Sam" laws, intended to prevent serial killers and their ilk from profiting from their "memoirs." If killers’ stories are suppressed, the logic goes, the glamour "hysteria" of serial/mass murder will die down. Proponents of this stance suggest that serial/mass killers are particularly susceptible to a lurid mimesis in which other miscreants, often graced with the same pathology and freakish delusions, copy the successful strategies of crime from previous "stars." By following a veteran’s MO, they believe they too can make it to the bright lights and banner headlines. But without game plans, so the logic goes, there can be no game.
Describing America as a wound culture, Seltzer (1998) offers serial and mass murderers as the epitome of the "non-personality", the most psychologically damaged of a damaged population. Moreover, their acts "have come to function as a way of imagining the relations of private bodies and private persons to public spaces."(228) In short, the spectacle of public killing drives one from anonymity into infamy, not fame, at a highly accelerated rate.
We can see an interesting paradox here. The famous star/celebrity is valued for their persona and the narrative of that persona’s evolution. The serial/mass killer achieves infamy through a complete lack of personality, in life narratives characterised by hapless crudity until these spectacles of mayhem catapult them into the spotlight; overnight sensations, indeed.
 
 
 
 



LadyEllen -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 1:28:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A sane person could not understand what drives these deranged people.


Now I see your point, thank you. Though I do not believe it explains this particular incident.

I took the quote above because its comforting to me that I fail to comprehend, whilst your understanding is clearly so much more developed. LOL!

E



popeye1250 -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 1:33:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Rule, I don't know but SOMEONE in schools should be armed.
We obviously don't have enough Cops to be in schools everyday so what do you do?


Perhaps we need to look deeper into where the problems are beginning instead of covering them up with superficial solutions that just feed into the violence.


Oh? Like another 100,000 social workers or "councillors" hired by the govt. and payed for by Taxpayers?
One bullet could have prevented this situation.



meatcleaver -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 1:34:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A sane person could not understand what drives these deranged people.



What is sane? Very few people will go through life without experiencing some sort of psychosis, it's part of the human condition. Fortunately it rarely results in such an incident.



NorthernGent -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 1:36:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A sane person could not understand what drives these deranged people.


Now I see your point, thank you. Though I do not believe it explains this particular incident.

I took the quote above because its comforting to me that I fail to comprehend, whilst your understanding is clearly so much more developed. LOL!

E


You'll find that my understanding comes from reading the analysis of those who have spent time studying these people. Let's not embarrass ourselves with a tit-for-tat personal argument on this particular subject. What I have posted is a school of thought on at least partially why people are committing these acts. If you don't agree with it then fine.



Malia1959 -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 1:50:07 PM)

I live in Lancaster County, PA and this is unprecidented.  It is still uncomprehensible to me!



windchymes -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 3:58:20 PM)

I had cold chills listening to the Philadelphia news report this afternoon, when the officer listed what he had brought to the school....10 pairs of eyebolts screwed into a 2 x 6 board (and he sent away all but 10 of the younger girls), tie wraps, rope, and two tubes of KY Jelly.  The whole plan was well-thought out and pre-meditated, and he was planning on being in the school for a long time. 

I was raised amongst the Amish in Wayne County, Ohio and my heart goes out to the families, too.  I was amazed to see some of the elders giving statements on-camera, since the Amish very rarely allow themselves to be photographed, it's against their religious beliefs.  They were filmed in profile but I was still really surprised and touched. 

I was happy to hear that they have concluded that it was not an attack on the Amish personally....he just lived near the Amish school and it was handy.



mistoferin -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 4:02:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes
I had cold chills listening to the Philadelphia news report this afternoon, when the officer listed what he had brought to the school....10 pairs of eyebolts screwed into a 2 x 6 board (and he sent away all but 10 of the younger girls), tie wraps, rope, and two tubes of KY Jelly.  The whole plan was well-thought out and pre-meditated, and he was planning on being in the school for a long time. 


And a box of small clamps....not to mention all the weapons. I'm glad that the police arrived quickly, I shudder to think of what those poor children might have had to endure before their deaths if time had allowed.



windchymes -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 4:11:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes
I had cold chills listening to the Philadelphia news report this afternoon, when the officer listed what he had brought to the school....10 pairs of eyebolts screwed into a 2 x 6 board (and he sent away all but 10 of the younger girls), tie wraps, rope, and two tubes of KY Jelly.  The whole plan was well-thought out and pre-meditated, and he was planning on being in the school for a long time. 


And a box of small clamps....not to mention all the weapons. I'm glad that the police arrived quickly, I shudder to think of what those poor children might have had to endure before their deaths if time had allowed.


My thoughts exactly, it justs makes me sick.



KatyLied -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 6:11:36 PM)

quote:

I was happy to hear that they have concluded that it was not an attack on the Amish personally....he just lived near the Amish school and it was handy.


And not to make an excuse for the pathetic piece of trash this guy was, but he chose an easy target.  He would not be able to gain entrance to a public school that way, you have to be buzzed in and announce your reason for being there.  Of course no system is safe from failure, but he really chose an easy target and that's one more confirmation that it was pre-meditated.

spelling edit



BlueHnS -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 6:56:57 PM)

I'm trying to decide if I should be offended by this thread or not. I think it was mentioned that there have been 3 or 4 shootings in schools in the last 6 weeks or so.
What hasn't been mentioned is that there are tons of inner city kids that face this possibility every single day. I'm not saying we shouldn't be outraged ... what I am saying is where is that same rage when it happens in the ghettos? Or is it more acceptable there because it's  more in sync with the standard of living ?



Aileen68 -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 7:00:22 PM)

The difference is that it's perceived that in the ghetto it's peers shooting each other, with both sides armed.  This was a grown man shooting seven year olds execution style.



KatyLied -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 7:06:24 PM)

quote:

This was a grown man shooting seven year olds execution style


Made even worse by the fact that he selected a religious group who are known for being non-resistant.



BlueHnS -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 7:28:44 PM)

I wasnt clear. I wasn't talking about gang related issues I was talking about kids going to school, possibly even ones who want an education.



Zensee -> RE: Amish School Shooting (10/3/2006 7:53:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

One bullet could have prevented this situation.



Apparently this guy was thinking something very similar.
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