Brainwashing (Full Version)

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match2u -> Brainwashing (1/22/2005 4:33:32 PM)

i was really thinking about if i should point that out, considering that i may do not get the issue of D/s - M/s but i would appreciate to hear Your opinion.

if a Master describe the M/s relation as a non - equal relation i agree as far as i define in there positions.
a Dom is a Dom, a Master is a Master
a sub is a sub, a slave is a slave
- not to forget a switch is a switch - smile

one holds power over the other. positions defined in an consesual agreement.

when it comes to the point of needing each other - in my opinion there is an equality.
both need each other to fullfill their needs and wants. without submission there is no Domination and vice versa.
there is no better - no worser. the worthy of them are equal.

in negation of that point - there will be no trust, honesty, faith, respect - neither appreciation or adoration.

a sub/ slave is not just body - like a set of hands or a piece of flesh.

a sub/ slave exist about body, mind and soul - these are what she submitt and surrender.

so mastering includes all of them - in my opinion.

my point is - in negation of that an equality even do not exist in their need of each other - there is no consensus given - and brainwashing, manipulating is starting - the beginning of abuse.

am i wrong with that?

would like to hear You opinion.

thanks a lot

petra



FangsNfeet -> RE: Brainwashing (1/22/2005 4:54:23 PM)

Abuse is what they come to me for in the first place. So I see nothing wrong with mannipulation. As for brainwashing, well I like you for you who are and not who I want you to be. Sure you will change some as in learning what I want and how to act aroud me. Not to mention how I like things done certain ways. But that's conditioning and training and not brainwashing. No matter what, I always belive a person should be themselves and or who they want to be. I'm just there to help guide the way with my pain, punishment, and mannipulation.



proudsub -> RE: Brainwashing (1/22/2005 6:07:43 PM)

I'm still trying to figure out what the question is here. Personally i don't think brainwashing should be part of a D/s relationship. To me training is far different than brainwashing. I agree with what Fangs has said.[:)]



LordODiscipline -> RE: Brainwashing (1/22/2005 8:37:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: match2u
when it comes to the point of needing each other - in my opinion there is an equality.


You are assuming on all relationships. Why does any one person 'need' another?

Certainly we need people in our lives; but, do we "need" a particular partner in our lives. We might desire them in our lives, want them in our lives - but, as modern relationships demonstrate - there is no real need.

For those who insist on the word "need" - The answer is 'yes' until it is 'no'

quote:

both need each other to fullfill their needs and wants. without submission there is no Domination and vice versa.


On might dominate another without their submission - think Ghandi.

quote:

there is no better - no worser. the worthy of them are equal.


Here you are equating a "value" statement with domination and submission - it is not better or worse - they just are.

quote:

in negation of that point - there will be no trust, honesty, faith, respect - neither appreciation or adoration.


I do not adore my girl... she is mine. The other words are too subjective to meet any definitive means of convenience as to meaning (please, let's skip the Webster's Unabridged on this... I am referring to the fact that they are not definable to peoples from a personal perspective)

quote:

a sub/ slave is not just body - like a set of hands or a piece of flesh.


They can be - and, it is a rather refrreshing thing.

quote:

a sub/ slave exist about body, mind and soul - these are what she submitt and surrender.


Not sure what this means, although it does verge on the romantic sacreligious.

quote:

so mastering includes all of them - in my opinion.


I do not agree.

quote:

my point is - in negation of that an equality even do not exist in their need of each other - there is no consensus given - and brainwashing, manipulating is starting - the beginning of abuse.


If you live in China, it is called re-indoctrination/indoctrination. If you lived in Vietnam, it was called re-integration/integration... If you live in the US or other Western nations, it is called rehabilitation.
The facts are that it is resocialization of the habitual regulatory norms that a person understands their world with.

Like the word 'abuse' today, "brainwashing" was another overused word.

quote:

am i wrong with that?


I believe you are... you are saying that IF my girl were to be used as a purely sexual/physical object for any length of time - and gagged... she would be abused and brainwashed if she liked it. If all she was good for was to clean the house, she would be brainwashed and misused. If she were to be objectified, humiliated, or passed about, she would be a candidate for the psycho center, or a battered women's home.

I will not tell you what she would say to that.

Please understand Petra - this is not directed at you, but at a prevalent and overriding philosophy that is expoused on the web that "What I do is ok" - "What you do is abuse"

~J



mistoferin -> RE: Brainwashing (1/23/2005 2:30:55 AM)

quote:

Abuse is what they come to me for in the first place.


I totally disagree. I don't think that just because one identifies as submissive or slave that she is looking to be abused. I think abuse is a very different topic entirely.



LdyAuburn -> RE: Brainwashing (1/23/2005 3:40:23 AM)

I would want my power control to be a conscious desire, not one created by brain washing



darkinshadows -> RE: Brainwashing (1/23/2005 3:49:53 AM)

quote:

LordODiscipline
I believe you are... you are saying that IF my girl were to be used as a purely sexual/physical object for any length of time - and gagged... she would be abused and brainwashed if she liked it. If all she was good for was to clean the house, she would be brainwashed and misused. If she were to be objectified, humiliated, or passed about, she would be a candidate for the psycho center, or a battered women's home.

I will not tell you what she would say to that.

Please understand Petra - this is not directed at you, but at a prevalent and overriding philosophy that is expoused on the web that "What I do is ok" - "What you do is abuse"


I think that you are right... yes... But only if that is what the sub or the slave has submittied to. You are speaking about Your personal relationship with your slave... one that has already been negociated and communication established. Therefore abuse does not exist because the parameters have already been defined.

But if she was a slave, whos definitions of slavery was different to yours during negotiation, then does the designation alter? Is it the consensuality that alters the term from 'abuse' to a more acceptable word within a BDSM relationship?

I think that what is being asked...(and forgive me if I am wrong petra) is...

If a sub/slave has a pre defined perception of what a relationship should be and another disagrees(Dominant)... and insists on instilling His/Her belief onto this slave, insists that the slave/sub is wrong... that she is not being a 'true slave'... just because her parameters do not meet the same criteria as the Dominants, then is this an abuse? Should it not be wiser for the Dominant just to say... 'we are not compatable, lets forget it'... instead of making the sub/slave feel worthless?

FangsNfeet has stated that

quote:

I'm just there to help guide the way with my pain, punishment, and mannipulation.


You also say...
quote:

Abuse is what they come to me for in the first place. So I see nothing wrong with mannipulation.


I totally agree with you... but this only correct in a consensual agreement, surely? If a sub/slave came with different views to you, does that make them any less of a person, or someone just not compatable with you who should be searching for training elsewhere?

Love & Peace



match2u -> RE: Brainwashing (1/23/2005 4:11:11 AM)

.. like always Angel, you are able to take in words than i can do - thanks a lot.

Yes - i was talking about a consensual relationship.

therefor i talk about an agreement negotiated before a M/s or D/s is settled.

of course, there exist different forms of them, but as long as the consensus is not given - it is abuse.

just my view

petra



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