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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 9:16:11 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If he wants YOU.. he plays by YOUR rules. If his diaper is more important.. show him the door.

Uh huh.

I wonder what ELSE he would have to give up in order to "serve".

How much elements of his SELF would he have to sacrifice?

He doesn't have to give up SQUAT! He can seek someone with whom will be more compatable.

Is a Domme required to accept all behavours and fetishes? Or just be upfront about her preferences and expectations?

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 9:20:33 PM

sissifytoserve

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Personally,

I don't think I would give upon a potential Mistress per se if she say "liked to watch sitcoms" or "engages in heavy CBT".

I wouldlet her indulge in it even though those really aren't my thing and tend to dislike it.

But whatever. It's a wonder sometimes to me how anyone finds anyone else in this "lifestyle".

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The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 9:21:09 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
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quote:

ORIGINAL: demistress
Anyway, thus I am wondering if dommes had any experience with weaning someone (other than an infant) from diapers.

This is an adult, thinking, human being.. he says he was "programmed" and doesn't know how? Methinks you are being played into his fantasy world.

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 9:22:57 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Personally,

I don't think I would give upon a potential Mistress per se if she say "liked to watch sitcoms" or "engages in heavy CBT".

I wouldlet her indulge in it even though those really aren't my thing and tend to dislike it.

But whatever. It's a wonder sometimes to me how anyone finds anyone else in this "lifestyle".

Geee.. I'd rather be loved than tolerated :) Wouldn't you?

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 9:25:45 PM

Misstoyou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

...

I still call her (my ex Domme) to this day and tell her (as she's telling me..."{moi}...you need to let go") to which I respond "but...she's NOT like YOU!!!!"

Ouch! And do you tell your "current" that you're having those kinds of conversations with your "ex"? Because just hearing that, once, from my submissive would tell me that we both have made a big mistake.

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 9:26:50 PM

sissifytoserve

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Being loved only comes with honoring someone elses basic essence and above all SELF.

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Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/15/2006 10:29:44 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx
I'm a firm believer that if you're going to be a sub or a slave, dammit, be a sub or a slave. Call me a purist.

You figure out who the person is in front of you right this second. You figure out what (in this case) she wants, AND YOU DO IT.

If that sounds like putting on a different pair of shoes, so be it. Any (in my mind) self-respecting servant figures out quickly the nuances of their new supervision.

'Don't do that. Do this.' 'Oh. Yes, Mistress.' How hard is that?

Your words could apply to the question of protocol or preferences for how things are done, and minor areas of interest. However, I disagree to the extent that statement is directed towards key areas of interest and suggests that a submissive should forego compatibility of interests and mould oneself to the wants of the dominant. I think if a sub who is primarily a masochistic bottom tries to go with this philosophy with a domme who enjoys mild, nurturing dominance, the relationship will fail.

I think if a submissive tries to supress a key desire with the justification that that is how submissives behave, the outcome will be unhappy for both persons. Submissives are humans and will eventually feel as a human would in this scenario. I think this supression could lead to resentment (conscious or subconscious) or dissatisfaction in the relationship, which could adversely impact or break the relationship. I think each person would be better off to continue to seek one where there is stronger compatibility for key areas. As an analogy we could consider one who is unhappy with her current employment. While she could bear it for some amount of time, the fact is that she is unhappy which affects the rest of her life as well as how much she gives of herself to the job.

I attended a presentation earlier this year by an experienced submissive who gives presentations at a national level. A key message in his presentation to submissives was that if someone tells a sub to do something which fundamentally does not feel right, the sub should trust that instinct and not feel compelled by any this-is-how-submissives-behave argument. He said that it is a sub's responsibility to mind her own needs that are important to keep her happy. He was off the opinion that the sub's primary responsibility is to this happiness and to communicate unhappiness, for an unhappy sub is limited with how much she can keep happy someone else. My philosophy aligns with his. I think this approach is more practical and realistic with respect to how social relationships work.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/15/2006 10:59:54 PM >

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 5:10:25 AM

mstrjx

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sea,

I certainly understand your point. I didn't believe that what I said would be easy for everyone to swallow, so let me elaborate.

Whenever I answer a question like this, I don't do it from a 'dominant answering for how a sub/slave should think'. I do it from 'if I were that person, how would 'I' think'. It would be very difficult for me to identify as a submissive setting up choices and boundaries and do's and dont's. Like I said earlier, I understand the purity of these sorts of relationships. So, my viewpoint would more probably be from a slave or potential slave's aspect.

The other key point is the person whom I'm serving. The only reason I desire to serve this person is if I want some sort of relationship with her. Again, from a slave's point of view, I want to be part of her life in the way she determines. But I don't NOT want to be a part of her life.

Whatever interests I have are not really 'mine' any longer. If it's easily disposable, then it gets disposed. If it is something integral to my core being, then that would have come out in early negotiations and I wouldn't BE that person's slave.

If I'm going to serve someone, I have to understand that I might get what I like every once in a while, more often if her tastes are compatible with mine. I also have to understand that I might have to undergo things that I DON'T like. If I have the proper mindset (more about serving the 'person', and not about my own kinks), then it shouldn't matter.

BDSM isn't about 'light and fluffy'. It 'can' be, but if you're in it for the long haul, you realize it's not always that way. And you embrace that thought, or you get out.

Jeff

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Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 6:40:30 AM

MsKatHouston

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quote:

Uh huh.

I wonder what ELSE he would have to give up in order to "serve".

How much elements of his SELF would he have to sacrifice?

Or how much elements of HER SELF would she have to sacrifice? There is one real issue here and that is, is his diapering something he enjoys but can give up or is it actually part of his self. Well, she obviously feels very strongly that she can not accept that. So the choices are, they go their separate ways and find more compatible partners in which case neither gives up part of their SELVES, she decides she can live with it and makes a concession to give up that part of her self for the relationship or he decides he can live without it and gives it up.

This isn't all about the poor submissive and us terrible dommes making him do things that are against his self. In fact, the OP makes it very clear she is concerned with his well being thus the question. Let's not make it into something it isn't. It's a clear cut problem with pretty clear options. It is up to the two in the relationship, though, to determine what sacrifices need to be made by either party and how deeply it will affect their sense of self and if said sacrificies will ultimately cause resentment.

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 6:45:18 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demistress

Ok, I am considering my first sub trained by another domme, and she was into some kinks I am not. I quite enjoy the domestic disciplinarian side of his training, but he has a thing about diapers, and I think it's important to him, and frankly, I'm just so turned off by it. Is there any way to undo this programming and transition him to other things, or should I just tell him to continue his search, because I am not going to put up with it, and if there's no way to ease him out of it, then I think it's better if I nip this thing in the bud before he gets attached. Any suggestions? Thanks ladies.

And before the 'top from the bottom' responses come up, I am talking lifestyle sub, not session or scene sub, so it's important to me that all parties find this life satisfying.

One question would be what do the diapers mean to him?

Are they a fetish? One he developed with her (the previous dom) or one he had before her?

The second question is how much control over his life do you want?

Fox has fetishes that do nothing for me and Tom has fetishes that turn me off -- so what, I have no desire to control their entire lives so I'm fine with both of them indulging in those fetishes away from me or with someone else. In one case, the man is my slave and I could control it if I liked but I see no value in it. In the other case, the man is my husband and while I am certainly dominant person in our relationship we are not in a Ds relationship and I feel I have no right to limit his sexuality unless I want him to have the right to limit mine (NOT).

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 8:12:49 AM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Being loved only comes with honoring someone elses basic essence and above all SELF.

If one is to be loved.. they have to honor someone else's basic essence above their self? I contend they have to LIKE.. not honor. Honor is not a word I would use.

For example-I can honor your "cross dressing" preference... but I don't have to like it. I do not have to have it part of my life..however YOU need it. I therefore would not even consider you because it would be unfair to involve myself with a person in which I already know they had a strong bent to an activity that I have no interest in.

I would not brow-beat it out of you anymore that you can brow-beat me into finding it enjoyable on a personal level. Do I understand it? YES. Do I want it part of my life? NO.

<<he has a thing about diapers, and I think it's important to him, and frankly, I'm just so turned off by it. >>

From what you (OP) wrote there, it sounds as if you do not know just HOW important it is to him.. ASK HIM. The wording of "programming" sort of threw me off as if he was someone induced to like it and wants to be de-programmed.

On the second read, it looks like he likes it. You are the Mistress. If you want to learn about something like this to understand it better, that is up to you. If you already know you don't like something (such as chewing glass, drinking bleach. jumping out of a plane without a parachute <--comic relief here) then advise him to seek elsewhere.

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I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 8:40:03 AM

demistress

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Ok, to further clarify, yes, we have talked about it, and I have never been less than honest. I do not feel it is my right to divulge his particular secrets here, but it was "programmed' into him very harshly and cruelly by his ex-wife who is also his former domme. It was in fact used as conditioning, to try to change his core self for her benefit. He used the word programming, and he does want to try to get past it. It has become a source of comfort for him when really bad things are happening in his life, it is not a fetish, and he does not find it sexually gratifying, only comforting. Right now he is dealing with some huge tragedies, and I will not deprive him of that comfort arbitrarily. I am a domme, I am not a bitch. I appreciate the de-programming advice I've gotten. And the perspectives offered. I have a de-programming regimen I am going to try with him in a few weeks when the tragedies aren't quite so fresh.

Mistress Heather

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Wether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 9:12:34 AM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
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quote:

ORIGINAL: demistress
It has become a source of comfort for him when really bad things are happening in his life, it is not a fetish, and he does not find it sexually gratifying, only comforting. Right now he is dealing with some huge tragedies, and I will not deprive him of that comfort arbitrarily. I am a domme, I am not a bitch. I appreciate the de-programming advice I've gotten. And the perspectives offered. I have a de-programming regimen I am going to try with him in a few weeks when the tragedies aren't quite so fresh.

Mistress Heather

.

Ah :) Thank you for the clarification. I can appreciate your confidentiality Sharing a bit more to make it all a bit more understandable. It almost sounds as if this would be a job for a mental health professional to deal with at this point. It's not like you are trying to break an adult of thumb-sucking or nail biting. He has this as a coping mechanism, but one not of his choice. The ex- sure did a job on his mind.

I know you will do what you will. If it were I, I'd be his friend and even hold his hand as he gets therapy.. you can always become his domme when his healing has begun.

Actually, you can make his therapy session, a "session" :)

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 10/16/2006 9:16:20 AM >

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/16/2006 9:48:38 AM

undergroundsea

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Jeff,

I did make my post with a context of a relationship in the early phase where compatibility and negotiations are being determined, as seems to be the case with the OP. I think your post may indeed be more applicable to an established relationship where compatibility and commitment have been determined with the appropriate dynamic. At the same time, I think boundaries and interests dear to the sub may matter that much more because of the dominant's fondness for the submissive.

I, in turn, understand your point that a given dynamic might allow for denying or withholding from a sub a key interest for the sake of the dynamic or the dominant. I know what you mean by a what you call a purist view and know some people to define their dynamic per that view.

I think the matter about unmet desires is gray rather than black or white. In general, I think how a social relationship fares is a result of how the sources of satisfaction balance against sources of dissatisfaction. I see an unmet want or need to be a potential source of dissatisfaction. If it is a source of dissatisfaction, that matter alone may or may not cause a relationship to break. I think it is a part of the mix and its significance is case dependent.

I also recognize that some subs could process an unmet want or need in a way that creates satisfaction to offset the dissatisfaction.

quote:

It would be very difficult for me to identify as a submissive setting up choices and boundaries and do's and dont's. <snip> If I have the proper mindset (more about serving the 'person', and not about my own kinks), then it shouldn't matter.

I think boundaries matter. And I think it is reasonable for a sub to define general boundaries and offer submission within those boundaries. I wonder if we might be envisioning different ideas with boundaries. I am not envisioning a script or narrow path that allows only certain kinks but boundaries that protect the general well being of a person. I think some boundaries do not go against the general well being of a person but still may be legitimate boundaries based on what is the reason for the same--they may be of emotional significance.

quote:

BDSM isn't about 'light and fluffy'. It 'can' be, but if you're in it for the long haul, you realize it's not always that way. And you embrace that thought, or you get out.

Given the context of our discussion, I think what you mean here is that BDSM is not easy or something a sub can order to be her way, and if one cannot embrace that thought she should leave BDSM.

If so, I think each pair defines their brand of BDSM and it is perfectly reasonable for a submissive to have equal input into that definition. I realize that in some dynamics both parties may wish for less input from the sub. However, I think dynamics that do allow for the relationship basis (by relationship basis I mean the importance of each person and needs and wants of each person, and contrast it with relationship roles) to be on equal footing, or dynamics that fit BDSM into a traditional companionship (and also allow equal footing) are not wrong. It is fair to say that such a dynamic would not work for you. However, I don't think such people should get out of BDSM.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/16/2006 9:50:44 AM >

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/18/2006 1:32:07 AM

pixelslave

Posts: 1444
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quote:

ORIGINAL: demistress

Ok, to further clarify, yes, we have talked about it, and I have never been less than honest. I do not feel it is my right to divulge his particular secrets here, but it was "programmed' into him very harshly and cruelly by his ex-wife who is also his former domme. It was in fact used as conditioning, to try to change his core self for her benefit. He used the word programming, and he does want to try to get past it. It has become a source of comfort for him when really bad things are happening in his life, it is not a fetish, and he does not find it sexually gratifying, only comforting. Right now he is dealing with some huge tragedies, and I will not deprive him of that comfort arbitrarily. I am a domme, I am not a bitch. I appreciate the de-programming advice I've gotten. And the perspectives offered. I have a de-programming regimen I am going to try with him in a few weeks when the tragedies aren't quite so fresh.

Mistress Heather

To say that i am touched by the the warmth, kindness and care You are showing for this man is inadequate to describe my feelings at the moment.

Best of luck and my heartfelt wishes to the both of You as You work through this issue together. You sub is indeed a lucky man to have found a Mistress so willing to take him on and help him with this issue!

- pixel

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RE: Undoing another Domme's programming - 10/18/2006 7:36:36 PM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misstoyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

...

I still call her (my ex Domme) to this day and tell her (as she's telling me..."{moi}...you need to let go") to which I respond "but...she's NOT like YOU!!!!"

Ouch! And do you tell your "current" that you're having those kinds of conversations with your "ex"? Because just hearing that, once, from my submissive would tell me that we both have made a big mistake.

No...I tried dating a dozen or so women over several years after being with the other Domme, but I just couldn't make it work all that well...still holding on a smidge. She (the original Domme) was just so remarkable that every other woman I dated just didn't quite measure up.

It's not like I put her on a pedestal (I did...I don't), and frankly, some of her advice or thoughts on how things should be...sucks, but, you have to understand, I came from a very different world than this whole WIITWD thing...and when the doors were opened, and I saw the other side....it blew me away, so she kind of "imprinted" on me.

It was kinda like "You mean I can have all this AND the other stuff too????"

I know it's a little irrational and I am working to shed myself of some of this...but, again...she's a remarkable person, so...I kind of hold her up to a light against the others...and when they don't quite cut it as to her level...I pretty much say "NEXT!!!!".

So, no, there's no current that has to listen to me whine about her lol.

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