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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 7:04:36 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I think outside of death and dismemberment, illegal activities, and consensuality issues with people outside any given scene, I am taboo-free.

That's not to say there are things that I haven't explored.  That's not to say there are things I'm interested in.  But if a partner wanted to go places (or better, had experience) that I had not yet dared, I'm pretty game.

I'm fair when it comes to other people's limits, but I will question them and try to out-logic them.  I'm patient when it comes to getting close, but will get close after a while if I think the person would be better off.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 7:05:06 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW

Letting go is very difficult. You have to have that trust in the other to do it. Going to TPE for me was very difficult at first. I thought about limits I was giving up and I realized it didn't bother me.  I have trust in my Master, I have accepted his limits are mine. I know he will never let harm come to me. It is a wonderful feeling to know that you can let go.


TPE is still something I have yet to fully understand. I know people have misconceptions about it and confuse it with micromanagement.

Perhaps you can weigh in on what that means to you in your dynamic?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 7:16:57 PM   
RedSavageSlave


Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline 		julia.. I think this is a wonderful thread you have started.

I have one truly hard limit..and only one and it is dealing with a traumatic issue for me. For me .. it could be a matter of trust but its also part of the self preservation that I keep as a common sense factor. Is it something that perhaps someone could help me get over.. yes.. I think so.. But until I know what it would do to me...it is not something I am willing to hand over to someone. I dont think its fair for me to do so nor do I think its fair for someone to expect it of me. Now that is not to say that I am not working on dealing with this issue on my own. But until I can reach the point where I truly believe it will not harm me in some way to allow someone to have that aspect of me, I will keep it as a hard limit. And it is not really about trust so much. It is about knowing what I can and what I cannot give.

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So many thoughts, so few of them rational

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 7:26:46 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It has begun this exploration inside of why I even have limits, and what purpose do they really serve for me? I think letting go of this one limit deals with keeping a dominant from fully posessing me. It was not about fear, it was about control, keeping control over this aspect meant I keep him out of my head just that little bit.


I have some pretty hard limits. They have served me well up to this point and will continue to do so. One pointed out just what a jerk one Dom was that I considered getting into a relationship with. Somehow I thought that when you stated a hard limit that meant you weren't forced to do it. He disagreed and said he would change my hard limits. He didn't last too long.

But I look forward to the day when I can shed my hard limits because I've found someone I can trust enough to let them have my limits. I know that's what I'm looking for. It's very difficult to find and, as you said, it's a process once you have found them. Keeping those limits in place until you can be certain that your trust is justified makes a whole lot of sense to me.

From everything I've read of yours I would say you will progress into dropping limits within a wise and well-considered framework.  

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 9:07:29 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		In the last 3 months I have done a few of my previous "stiff limits" not hard but not somethings i wasn't really big on trying either. Funny thing is one of them when anyone else had tried it i went from sweet sub to furious devil in seconds, but with Him it's just what it is. To be honest it completely confuses me. Sad when you can't understand your own brain.

From the growth over the past few months i've come to think that alot of limits have alot to do with whom you are playing with. The level of trust and comfort you feel with your partner.

Yes my hard limits are things i don't think i'll ever do for anyone. dismemberment or disfugurement for a couple of examples.

Wierdly the couple things I'm having the hardest time dealing with are things most people would find relatively easy and I have no idea how to over come my hang ups.

More learning and growing to do i guess

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 9:30:43 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I also find it important to point out something in the tone of your OP Julia, but not something youi overtly pointed out- this letting go of limits thing is NOT being approached as some litmus test, gauntlet, or proof of submissive goodliness.

Too many people see limits as "eventual goals" or even "ways to prove myself."  I think that's the wrong approach to take towards limits.  You and yours seem to be taking the right approach, simply growing in who you are together where it takes you both.

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 9:47:07 PM   
shadevarr


Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline 		The few limits I have for myself as a Master and as a Daddy are there not because I can't do them, or dislike them but because once I engage in that activity with someone it is all but impossible for me to see them as anything less than human. Some of them would reduce them to such a state in my mind that they wouldn't even be fit for anything intimate, not even cuddling hence I keep those limits close to me because I never want to feel that way about someone that I care about.

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 9:56:58 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		I have gone and am going through this particular place in my relationship. As we've grown together, most of my limits have simply melted into the background. For me, it wasn't a matter of letting go of limits, but not focusing on them. At some point, my attention turned from my limits to my bounds. We no longer focus on where we can't go, but where we can.
 
A few weeks ago, we sat down in a coffee shop and made our own checklists (merely for the purpose of being pervy in public). I was surprised to find that the things I had considered limits were no longer limits. Discourse ensued, at length.
 
I'm not sure I have the correct words to explain why I trust Him with my safety, implicitly. I don't need personal limits, we have grown into our limits, as  a couple. His limits are mine, just as my limits are His. It's a comfort level, I suppose.



_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:06:10 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Also, the more you let go of the lifelines and the fewer they get.. the harder someone tends hang on to the ones which are left .. and it takes just that much more internal reflection to finally let go of those as well. I don't believe it's possible to trust someone else unless you have fully examined what's inside your own head first.


*Grinning at you Celeste*.. how did you know this? This is part of my journey and what he demands of me every single day, to be cognizant of what is going on in me own noggin. It is also why I believe the walls are coming down, I am forced to consider the fact they are there to begin with.



Hello A/all,

I am not really interested, for the most part, in what a person feels apart from an observational interest, like bird watching I suppose.  Why she feels what she feels is what I need to know.  But that voyage of self-discovery is something that many people seem to be unwilling or unable to embark on.

This thread is actually the result of a rather deep conversation she and I had yesterday.  While the subject matter is private, what I persisted in asking her was why she felt a certain way about something.  After she had exhausted all of her reasons and excuses and rationalizations for her feeling a certain way, she seemed to get to a point where she started asking herself "why do I really feel this way?"

Sometime last night she found the core answer within herself and had a realization about herself and her own motivations, all on her own, and shared it with me this morning.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:17:47 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		One thing I was required to do from the beginning (although I was terrible at it in the beginning) is to answer the "Why" questions.  Why did I react a certain way?  Why did I feel a certain way?  Why was I thinking a certain way?

I never really knew.  That was unacceptable to him.  So I would be sent on a journey inside myself to explore the why's.  In time I began learning to analyze where certain feelings/thoughts/behaviors came from, and once I understood them myself, well a whole new world opened up.  In retrospect, I could see he was not just asking "Why" for his own knowledge, but to teach me to ask myself the same questions.  In doing so, I wasn't so quick to simply accept "This is how I am, because this is how I am, and I don't need to change it" as my reality.  I never liked myself much, but I didn't know why.  Certain rather benign ideas scared the hell out of me, but I didn't know why.

As I explore deeper into myself (and it does seem never-ending), I answer more of my own "why's."  As I answer more "why" questions, I am able to let go of old paradigms and expand my mind to newer possibilities.  In doing so, those things which once felt impossible for me to do became very possible. 

I did not have a check list when we started out, but we used to have conversations in which he would ask me my thoughts and feelings on various activities.  He would ask me what was the most extreme thing I could think of.  I'd be too afraid to even say it.  As time moved on, however, those things which I once labeled as "extreme" ceased to be extreme at all.  I don't just mean sexual acts, either, but ways of thinking - concepts, ideas, etc.  All of it. 

Now those things which I have trouble letting go of have nothing to do with anything physical at all, and everything to do with emotional responses to further letting go of self.  And yet, the more I "let go of self" the more I actually allow myself to be.

Crazy, isn't it....

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:21:53 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

this letting go of limits thing is NOT being approached as some litmus test, gauntlet, or proof of submissive goodliness.


I love that phrase, submissive goodliness, it sounds like we are baked goods... I agree, exploring our limits is perhaps important, but letting them all go to prove something external to ourselves and our dynamic is not being true to ourselves or our dynamic. One should never have to compromise their inner being for any relationship in my opinion... compromising is good, compromising yourself is something quite different...



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:28:15 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I never really knew.  That was unacceptable to him.  So I would be sent on a journey inside myself to explore the why's.  In time I began learning to analyze where certain feelings/thoughts/behaviors came from, and once I understood them myself, well a whole new world opened up.  In retrospect, I could see he was not just asking "Why" for his own knowledge, but to teach me to ask myself the same questions.  In doing so, I wasn't so quick to simply accept "This is how I am, because this is how I am, and I don't need to change it" as my reality.  I never liked myself much, but I didn't know why.  Certain rather benign ideas scared the hell out of me, but I didn't know why.


You know at first I would give these little pat pseudo psycho babble answers when he would ask me "why", and I STILL will do that because it is an automatic response... I think this is possibly why the asking over and over again for the deeper answer, and not some pat parrot answer. I have taken psych 101, and I know the little pat pop psychology answers, and it is much harder to dig deeper...

Sometimes my initial answer was the only answer, because it walks and it quacks like a duck, well it is a duck. But I am discovering I use these little psycho babble answers as a defense mechanism far more than I even realized....

Thanks to my Daddy that is...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:39:47 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah, I did that too.  A protective shield, preventing the real answer from getting out, even to myself.  It felt so much safer tucking it all in and keeping it there.  It was certainly easier....or so I thought.  Until I realized just how much energy I spent keeping myself tucked away, holding on to that effort for dear life.

It is scary and exciting and fascinating to discover those hidden parts of yourself like that.  I am glad Master prodded my mind as he did (and still does).  I would never have gotten to know myself otherwise.  And I am still learning and growing...still discovering.  And yes, at times even still fighting it.  And he just waits, watching - sometime amused, sometimes annoyed - yet knowing at some point I'll figure it all out and return to him with..."Yeah...um...about that incident..." 

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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:41:56 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

sometime amused, sometimes annoyed - yet knowing at some point I'll figure it all out and return to him with..."Yeah...um...about that incident..." 


Sounds very familiar...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:43:26 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

As I explore deeper into myself (and it does seem never-ending), I answer more of my own "why's."  As I answer more "why" questions, I am able to let go of old paradigms and expand my mind to newer possibilities.  In doing so, those things which once felt impossible for me to do became very possible. 



Hello A/all,

The older and more crotchety I get, the more I realize that the thing which defines a person's limits (And I do not mean that specifically in the BDSM sense, but more abstractly as how much of a mark a person feels they can make in their universe) is their own reality.

There was a time in the early 1990s where I woke up from a coma, paralyzed on the left side of my body, and was discharged and dumped by my insurance company.  But I am stubborn.  I said "fuck you" to the lot of them and worked out on my own 7 days a week to recover.  3 years later I tested for 3rd degree black belt in a martial art that does all sorts of (ridiculous from a usefulness standpoint in terms of self-defense, but technically difficult) jumping and spinning kicks.  I passed my test with no considerations for any disability.

There was a time when the industry I was in (computer, 2001) crashed and I was underemployed picking up day work and the occaisional computer engineer contract job.  I am stubborn.  I said "fuck you" to the lot of them and worked diligently to survive and get in to the union I belong to, which eventually happened.

Along the way I came to the realization that the only real limit a person has is inside of them.  I respect a person's limits because I know this is the boundary that they feel they can exist safely within.  But like all limits, I believe it is one which is self-imposed.

Which is not to say that I involve my ego in this person having a limit on spiders.  I simply need to know why.  I have all sorts of limits I have set for myself.  But I understand why each one of them exists.  I know why they are soft or hard limits.

The connection this has to this thread is that the issue that julia was dealing with was entirely within herself and her own consciousness, and only tangentially to the issue which brought it to her attention.  I am not focussed on the issue that brought it to her attention.  I needed to know her innermost thoughts and feelings on that issue, and why it was a limit.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/16/2006 11:46:55 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Yeah, I did that too.  A protective shield, preventing the real answer from getting out, even to myself.  It felt so much safer tucking it all in and keeping it there.  It was certainly easier....or so I thought.  Until I realized just how much energy I spent keeping myself tucked away, holding on to that effort for dear life.

It is scary and exciting and fascinating to discover those hidden parts of yourself like that.  I am glad Master prodded my mind as he did (and still does).  I would never have gotten to know myself otherwise.  And I am still learning and growing...still discovering.  And yes, at times even still fighting it.  And he just waits, watching - sometime amused, sometimes annoyed - yet knowing at some point I'll figure it all out and return to him with..."Yeah...um...about that incident..." 


Hello A/all,

The problem with pat answers and rationalizations is that they are pat answers and rationalizations which the person uses to protect themself from The Truth (whatever the hell that is).

I dont like the idea that I cannot handle the truth, so I seek it out at every opportunity even if I find it unpleasant to learn.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/17/2006 12:00:28 AM   
gypsylee


Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I also find it important to point out something in the tone of your OP Julia, but not something youi overtly pointed out- this letting go of limits thing is NOT being approached as some litmus test, gauntlet, or proof of submissive goodliness.


 i know this is getting old, but cheers LA.

but i'll go one step further and say that there are some limits i have that i hope i don't end up letting go of... in all areas of my life i have an addictive personality and i'm forever wanting more, more, more! so i think my problem would be more a case of too much, too soon.

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You're one twisted fuck... Nup, I'm just an ordinary girl with nothin' to lose.


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RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/17/2006 2:08:54 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Getting to the point of trusting him not to hurt me mentally or emotionally, made limits unnecessary.

He knows my *apprehension levels* on different types of things, that's all the information he needs, really.

agirl


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/17/2006 2:55:49 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		LA. you hit it right on the head!  So often it seems that hard limits are goals or obstacles to overcome.  I agree that compromise is good, but compromising one's self is not.  I know many believe that letting go of limits is a trust issue.  I don't necessarily agree...at least, I don't necessarily agree that you may not let go because there isn't complete trust.  I think it can be more a matter of finding a person who has many of the same limits that you do.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Letting Go Of Limits - 10/17/2006 6:26:21 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline 		As a Dominant, I do have limits and some of them are self-imposed in the sense that I don't think my sub is ready for some activities since there is a great difference in our experience levels.  When we first met, we filled out an activity list and she had many limits.  We reveiw the list every 3 months during our Sunday morning scheduled discussions.  During our last talk, she laughed at some of her limits from a year ago as her trust in me grows. 

I'm taking her soft limits and pushing them more often than not.  My goal is to eliminate them and turn her hard limits into soft ones as she learns to trust me even moreso.  However, there can be a fine line drawn with how hard I can push because once trust is compromised, it's hard to get that trust back.  Also, the last thing I wish to do is overwhelm her in any aspect.  I usually wait until I see outward signs that indicate she is ready to more ahead before I push her a lil bit further than the last time, in her submission as well as our scening. 

All this is difficult for me but I know in the end she will trust me, surrender totally.  I enjoy watching her flower, the "I need more look in her eye,"  then the initial fear of what it means for her to let go just a little bit more.  Some of our scenes are well planned to achieve this goal, while some are very spontaneous.  Nonetheless, I try to move at the rate of her best interests because I feel that she might wants for activities beyond her experience.  I will always protect her from herself in this manner, if need be the case but my mouth waters for the day when I can pull out all the stops.

I'm planning a surprise scene to bring her to her fear level with tons of aftercare, a penchant of mine, to see how she handles it mentally.  If she processes the fear element as I hope she does (of course I'll modify or end the scene if she doesn't), I know we have hit a new trust level that will signify pushing her limits a little bit more.

LBO

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 40
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