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RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 3:06:39 AM   
Whisperkit


Posts: 6
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline 		I have to agree with senrage there.. in a community where so many show their commitment in ways other than traditional marriage, discussing whether we should let those who are different from us in on this defunct system seems rather bizarre.

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 1:30:56 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

There is no "god" by default. There is no place for spiritual aesthetics in either legislation or in the lives that do not share that personal aesthetic.

Precisely. Which is why no one should have the right to demand that a specific church give sanction to their marriage or why no church should have the right to interfere with the right of consenting adults to marry. The government should be neutral. Religious organization don’t have to be neutral, they just should not be allowed to stop others from exercising their rights.

quote:

Marriage is obsolete as a true commitment of love and exists more as an institute that people feel they need to take part in out of some social obligation.

That’s just your opinion. For a great many people in America (more than you probably realize) and around the world marriage remains not just an economic and social union, or a matter of tradition or social obligation, but a deeply intimate and spiritual union.

quote:

How consensual adults commit and express their love for each other is no one else's business.

Precisely the point of my post. If people don’t want to get married, then don’t get married but if two lesbians want to marry each other, who the Hell is anybody else to tell them they can’t?

quote:

Family values are only sacred as far as the individual family extends. One family does not have the right to decide what is sacred for another family.

Precisely!

quote:

There is far more scientific evidence that homosexuality is a product of gender disorder than it is of psychological attributes. Those organizations that do believe homosexuality is a psychological disorder have no evidence of that other than they think they can treat it through psychological conditioning.

Completely irrelevant to the topic. It does not matter what causes homosexuality. Homosexuals exist. Are they not human? Are they not deserving of the same rights as all humans?

quote:

Over half the country's families do not have married people within it. Over half of those families that do have married people in it will end in divorce within an average of 8 years.

Again, completely irrelevant. Some, if not most people want to get married. Should anyone be denied that because of their sexual orientation. Expanding marriage rights may in fact save the institution. I know a woman who got a divorce because her husband was cheating on her with another man. He admitted that part of the reason he got married to her was because he felt that society expected him to marry a woman. Perhaps if he had been allowed to marry who he really wanted to, he never would have gotten a divorce and she would have married a man that she would have not divorced, and a lot of unnecessary heartache could have been avoided
.
quote:

The No More Bullshit Party Solution: Ban and dissolve all marriages as legally binding contracts.

I hope you are kidding. If not, what gives you the right to decide how "consensual adults commit and express their love for each other"?

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 1:48:01 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I have to agree with senrage there.. in a community where so many show their commitment in ways other than traditional marriage, discussing whether we should let those who are different from us in on this defunct system seems rather bizarre.


Wether or not the institution of marriage is defunct is very much open to debate but that really isn't the question.  The question is wether or not "we should let those who are different from us" get married.  In other words, wether we should accord them the same legal rights as the rest of us.  The problem is that we are all different to others and denying people their rights based upon their differences is the cause of most human misery throughout history.  If you accept that it is okay to deny one group of people their freedom because of some characteristic they share in common (skin color, religion, homosexuality, etc.) then you accept the notion that it is okay to deny freedom.  What claim do you then have to freedom? Somebody out there doesn't like you for some superficial reason.  Somebody out there wants to deny you your rights because you are different from them in some way and that difference offends them.  Why is their case to deny you your freedom any less valid than "your" case to deny freedom to others.  Freedom must apply to all or it is not freedom.

If I came across as a little harsh or sounded like I was accusing you of anything (such as wanting to deny homosexuals the right to marry) that was not my intent.  I am merely answering why it is important to discuss such things, and that it is not at all bizzare to discuss something as important as freedom.

Edited to correct a couple of dim-bulb spelling mistakes.  

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 10/27/2006 1:53:57 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 4:10:55 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b]Freedom can and will work if the majority of us just agree that freedom applies to all – and practice that agreement in our daily lives. And what about those who do not want freedom to apply to all? Those who stew and whine and pout over the idea that people who they don’t like (because they are "perverts" or "degenerates" or whatever) actually have the audacity to live their lives they way they want to? So long as they do not actually try to impose beliefs on the rest of us they should be... well... tolerated. The fact that so many do try to impose their beliefs on others is why it is important for those of us who believe in freedom, people of good will toward one another, vote. The ballot box is where the battle is ultimately waged. That is where freedom will ultimately be expanded or restricted... where it will be won or lost.

I guess that was more than two cents, huh? More like a $1.57. But that is one of the beauties of freedom. We all have the right to put in our two cents and more.


Ahh, but that is where your entire argument has failed and thus the post may only be worth $.02 or less.  Who is trying to force their beliefs on who?  The infrastructure is already in place and has been since the founding of the United States.  Homosexuals are trying to come out of the woodwork for the last couple of decades and trying to force themselves on everyone else to be "included" to the point where it is now considered the "in" thing to do to "come out".  Just look at the bullshit coming out of Hollywood.

So, if you are going to debate a point of forcing one's beliefs on someone, let us truly examine the reality of who is really forcing their beliefs on who, and thus your argument fails miserably.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 4:27:45 PM   
MistressCamille


Posts: 107
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Let me tell you SirKenin. Gays don't really care what the beliefs of others are. The fight is for equal rights in the eyes of the law.

Stuff the religious rights beliefs!

I'm so tired of hearing them say that marriage is being attacked. When you ask them to explain they don't have a clue. Gays getting married doesn't change heterosexual marriage in any way.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 4:29:39 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The No More Bullshit Party Solution: Ban and dissolve all marriages as legally binding contracts.

I hope you are kidding. If not, what gives you the right to decide how "consensual adults commit and express their love for each other"?


I'm as serious as a heart attack. What better way to keep the government out of the consensual actions of loving adults than for the government to only recognize marriage as nothing more than a promise between two people? When the law ceases to recognize the union, the union will only mean something to those participate in it - and no one else - just as it should be.


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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 4:36:20 PM   
MistressCamille


Posts: 107
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

There is far more scientific evidence that homosexuality is a product of gender disorder than it is of psychological attributes.


Why does it have to be any kind of disorder? Why can't it just be a different flavor of normal?

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:10:42 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCamille

quote:

There is far more scientific evidence that homosexuality is a product of gender disorder than it is of psychological attributes.


Why does it have to be any kind of disorder? Why can't it just be a different flavor of normal?


Because no matter how much anyone may accept homosexuals socially, no matter how much it isn't a threat to anyone else around, it is not biologically normal. It can not be shown as such until it can be shown that there is a way for two homosexual of the same biological gender to reproduce without outside assistance. Homosexuality is not a blue eye/green eye thing. It is a biological disorder - but not one that needs crutches, special parking spaces or a cure.

1 out of every 1500 people in this world is born with some form of gender disorder (look to Ann Coulter for a classic case of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) that affects their physical features. As the mind is biological and not metaphysical, its a pretty safe bet that the same kind of gender disorders that are floating around out there now that affect the outward appearances are only a small part of those that only affect the inner parts of the very biological brain. Hormones, endorphins, testosterone and estrogen.. all biological agents that are created and released through biological gauges - any of which can be affected by the slightest disorder to the system.

Attraction is an aesthetic. Love is biological.


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If Men never thought with their penises, all you girls would still have cooties.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:17:56 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCamille

Gays getting married doesn't change heterosexual marriage in any way.



Not saying you're wrong, but think on this little tidbit:

"Pedophilic rapists posing as Masters doesn't change BDSM in any way."

When a seemingly positive thing becomes associated with a seemingly negative thing, the people in the seemingly positive will always defend theirs against the seemingly negative, in order to not be lumped into the same group.

Yours,


benji

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:22:27 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCamille

Let me tell you SirKenin. Gays don't really care what the beliefs of others are. The fight is for equal rights in the eyes of the law.

Stuff the religious rights beliefs!

I'm so tired of hearing them say that marriage is being attacked. When you ask them to explain they don't have a clue. Gays getting married doesn't change heterosexual marriage in any way.


Well, it is not the religious belief standpoint that I am coming from.  It is the standpoint of established structure.  The majority of Americans believe that it should be left in tact, and justifiably so.  The homosexuals, though, wish to stuff their viewpoint down everyone else's throats and make their demands.  They want the foundations of the USA changed just for them.  Right or wrong, and I am not going to get into that debate with you, that completely voids any point that Marc2b was trying to make.

It all comes down to the fact that the homosexuals are pushing, too far, too fast, and the majority of the US population has taken up arms and pushed back.  That is human nature, especially where passionate beliefs are involved.  So, who is stuffing themselves down the throats of who?  The status quo did nothing until the homosexuals started pushing and shoving.  The homosexuals started the fight.  Thus they are the guilty party and thus they are getting their just desserts, whether they like it or not.  They are just going to have to learn to deal with it.  The women did.  The blacks did.  The natives did.  They are going to have to as well.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to MistressCamille)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:32:26 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji
"Pedophilic rapists posing as Masters doesn't change BDSM in any way."

Yours,benji


And we all know we don't want anyone labelled "POSER" associated with "Masters"!

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:36:46 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

The majority of Americans believe that it should be left in tact, and justifiably so. 



No.  The majority of Americans believe it should be left intact, except for what benefits them (Tax the rich more, tax the poor more, more social welfare, less, more rights, less rights, guns, no guns, etc...)

Yours,


benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:43:50 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline 		I think most are missing the point.  "Marriage" is a term used for church unions.  "Civil Union" is what states should issue for legal purposes.  When I got married, I got a JP marriage - performed by the justice of the peace - because I don't belong to a church.  Yeah, they called it a marriage, but it was just a civil union.  Damn expensive to get out of, too - I don't recommend either of them.  
 
Churches have the right to refuse who they give their marriages to...and they choose not to give them to everyone.   States should step up to the plate and offer a civil union with the same legal trappings (and don't doubt it- it is a trap - LOL) for any two humans however they are classified, if they wish to be in the union.  This whole gays can't be married is crap, because gays shouldn't be trying to be 'married' in a church that doesn't want to give it to them.  Hell, I think it is unfair that kids eat free some nights at restaurants with a paid adult.  However, I don't think anyone would sympathize with me if I took another adult in dressed like a child and yelled and hollered that they were discriminating against me because I don't have children...I am owed a child eats free!  Their food, their rules.  So everyone who thinks churches owe gays marriages need to rethink their position.



_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 5:56:40 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I completely agree with the civil union position that Invictus states.  Give that to everyone, including homosexuals, and afford everyone the same rights that goes along with it.  Too bad the homosexuals can not be happy with that...  And therein lies the problem.

I do not agree with "marriage" either.  Fuck that.  I was married once.  It cost thousands of dollars to get out of (and I was not even the one pushing to get out of it), it cost over a year in Court, and the bitch tried (unsuccessfully of course... fucking with Me is never a good idea) to take Me for everything I had.  She walked away with nothing, and it serves her right, but that is not the point.

I will think twice before I consider getting married again.  My parents are trying to convince Me that I should get officially "married" to My common-law spouse, but I always retort with the fact that "marriage" was never mandated by the Bible and the Law of My country dictates that common-law is a perfectly valid union that affords all the same rights as a civil union...  That always sort of stops them dead in their tracks.  There is no valid retort...  They can not even throw the "follow the Law of the Land" argument in My face.  It drives My mom batty.  lol.  She just comes back with "Yeah, but the government is corrupt".  Yeah.  Whatever. 

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 10/27/2006 5:59:08 PM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 6:42:46 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		They certainly would be happy with that if it were really the same thing as a marriage from a legal point of view.  But as we've explained several times, a civil union isn't nearly the same thing as a marriage.  It's not guaranteed to be recognized by other states, and it's not valid for federal purposes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I completely agree with the civil union position that Invictus states.  Give that to everyone, including homosexuals, and afford everyone the same rights that goes along with it.  Too bad the homosexuals can not be happy with that...

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 6:51:17 PM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Master96


When straight people get married. We have a husband and wife. What we have when two women marry each other or two men?

Just curious…


I'm sorry, I'm sure there's a question here...I'm just at a loss to determine what exactly it is?

(in reply to Master96)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/27/2006 8:15:23 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveAkasha

I guess I am not sure how the debate of gay marriage always ends up involving Christians and non-Christians, but since it did, I suppose I will put in my two cents also.
 
I am a follower of Christ, and by most peoples respects a Christian.  I do not affiliate with a Church or denomination.  If someone were to look at the Bible and the way that it was written, I don't see how anyone can say it's exactly the way it should be.  When the Bible was first introduced, it was a bunch of MEN sitting around a table saying what went in, and what didn't.  How do we have any idea what was left out that should have been put in, and what was in all of the books and passages that didn't seem fit for us, or that we didn't need to know about.
 
Anyone can take passages in the Bible and twist them for their own benefit or argument.  People have been doing this centuries before us, and will do it centuries after us.  I know that Jesus was someone that wanted us to love each other, and not judge each other.  If anyone looks at it, they will notice that most of the condemning was done in the Old Test., not the new, though there are probably places it did exist.  I think when Jesus said, Love thy neighbor as thy self.. that was what he meant.  If you do this, you pretty much have the rest covered.  I don't remember it saying Love thy neighbor unless they are gay, a different race, a woman, a prositute, etc.. unless someone can show me where it says it, then they can just give up as far as I am concerned.
 
I did find a very good church that welcomed my ex-partner and I.  It was UCC, United Church of Christ, you know the one that did all the commercials that other churches had a fit about?  I wrote them when we were trying to have a baby, and told them the situation.  I said that my partner and I were going to have a baby, and that our faith was very important to us, we wanted to raise our child in our faith, and in a place that would welcome us as a family.  I got an email back from the asst. Pastor and I believe the main Pastor both saying we would be very welcome.  They also added they had another gay couple that attended church there, with their child, and they have always been involved and very much a part of the church family.
 
Yes, there are Christians that think it's wrong, there are also those that aren't Christians that think it's wrong.  I can't change their minds, and neither can anyone else.  I do feel for them though, that they are missing out on knowing some wonderful people, that could add a lot to their lives.  It must get very tiring being so filled with hate, I can't even imagine how that would wear on a person.  I guess if they find something they consider "evil" they can touch, then they forget about all of the "evil" they can't do anything about, or that they don't want to acknowledge.  It seems pretty easy and fits nice in a box, to blame all of the worlds ills on one group of people, rather than taking a look at ones self and thinking there might be something they can do to change things.
 
I know that with all of the thought I put into the above, that no one will change their views, so I shoudn't waste my breath.  I do know though that maybe someday, something I say will make a difference, then all of the times it didn't, will have been worth it.
 
Akasha


Hello Akasha,

I think Douglas Adams said it best when he referred to the whole Jesus Christ thing in an oblique way.

He stated, best I can recollect.

"2000 years after a man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be for people to be nice to each other for a change."

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SlaveAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/28/2006 6:39:13 AM   
MistressCamille


Posts: 107
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCamille

Let me tell you SirKenin. Gays don't really care what the beliefs of others are. The fight is for equal rights in the eyes of the law.

Stuff the religious rights beliefs!

I'm so tired of hearing them say that marriage is being attacked. When you ask them to explain they don't have a clue. Gays getting married doesn't change heterosexual marriage in any way.


Well, it is not the religious belief standpoint that I am coming from.  It is the standpoint of established structure.  The majority of Americans believe that it should be left in tact, and justifiably so.


Ok, what is that justification? And show me it's the majority that believes that. From what I've seen it's a split decision.

And as for established structure, all I'm hearing is that marriage should be between a man and a woman because it's always been that way. Problem is, it's not always been that way. In the past, and for some even now, it was acceptable for men to marry more than one wife. It was also acceptable for them to have women on the side they weren't married to.

The belief that marriage is between a man and a woman is a relatively recent part of mankind's history. Also for some marriage is a contract protecting a man's property. Women were considered nothing more than property and had no rights like they do now in many parts of the world. Marriages are still arranged by families in many places and are contracted to benefit the families of the bride and groom.

What I am saying is that marriage is not of one definition and means a lot of things to different people.

Heterosexuals don't get to hold love hostage. They don't get to decide that gays can't be Christian and want to marry in a religious ceremony. Nobody wants to force all religions to perform gay ceremonies. That is a choice a religion can make for itself.
quote:





  The homosexuals, though, wish to stuff their viewpoint down everyone else's throats and make their demands.  They want the foundations of the USA changed just for them. 


No they don't. Wow! What a mean and bigotted statement! They want the same rights as other committed couples. That's all.

And the homosexuals didn't start the fight dear. They aren't the ones that treated people unfairly and with prejudice. They are only trying to turn around a great wrong where the ones who did start the fight have bullied them.
quote:




So, who is stuffing themselves down the throats of who?  The status quo did nothing until the homosexuals started pushing and shoving.  The homosexuals started the fight.  Thus they are the guilty party and thus they are getting their just desserts, whether they like it or not.  They are just going to have to learn to deal with it.  The women did.  The blacks did.  The natives did.  They are going to have to as well.


If the homosexuals started the fight why is the real problem the prejudice of those who are bullying gays? Tying them to fences and beating the very life out of them? Not allowing them the same rights with their loved ones as heterosexual couples? Yeah, they are "guilty" of wanting the hate to stop and wanting to be able to proudly display their love for their significant others.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/28/2006 7:19:09 AM   
MistressCamille


Posts: 107
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCamille

quote:

There is far more scientific evidence that homosexuality is a product of gender disorder than it is of psychological attributes.


Why does it have to be any kind of disorder? Why can't it just be a different flavor of normal?


Because no matter how much anyone may accept homosexuals socially, no matter how much it isn't a threat to anyone else around, it is not biologically normal. It can not be shown as such until it can be shown that there is a way for two homosexual of the same biological gender to reproduce without outside assistance.


I don't believe being able to produce is a qualifyer for being considered normal.

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Homosexual’s marriages… - 10/28/2006 7:52:41 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I must say that I find the passion of this whole debate rather rediculous.

I simply do not understand why ANYone that is straight gives the slightest bit of a damn what gender the person I love and wish to spend my life with, is. I do not understand why it should matter wether my friend Julie, gets her partner Laurie, on her group health insurance versus if she was straight and had a Tom, Dick, or Harry, to put on it instead. Why does it matter to anyone else if they want their sig other to be the primary beneficiary of their estate if they should die unexpectedly? Or any other legal right a hetro spouse would have.

I get that homosexuality is against quite a few religous points of view. Big deal! So are many other things other people do but I don't see such passionate arguing over those. Exactly WHAT is the real issue here?? Exactly how do two people that have zero influence over your (anyone that is against this issue) personal life, matter to you. Big deal they want the same legal rights. Tell me why it matters to you. I don't care wether or not you feel it is against your moral or religous view, aside from that, what difference does it make??? I think anyone that eats a steak well done and with ketchup on it is sick and wrong, it still does not affect me. I think anyone smoking in an enclosed space such as a house or car with children is committing child abuse, I doubt that will ever be illegal. I think anyone that is already on welfare should not be procreating, it does affect me (taxes etc) I am not being an obnoxious bore and calling them names or demanding they should be spayed or neutered. It would be against their legal rights even though it makes sense to me.

All you religious zelots will, I am sure, will say I am mixing apples and oranges. I disagree, what a homosexual couple does, how they live their life, that they should expect the same legal rights as every other human being in their country seems should be the norm, not the exception. I don't see it as, getting in anyone's face at all.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MistressCamille)
Profile   Post #: 160
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