RE: "Problem solved" (Full Version)

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LadySeraphina -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 12:48:54 PM)

Most of the Indian/Native people in my area are part of the First Nations people, some are Inuit, and some are Metis. Generally we call them Dave, Bob, and Sally.

(I had a really good, valid thought to point out about immigration and jobs, but I lost it, so just pretend I said something intelligent here.)



LaTigresse -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 12:51:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySeraphina
(I had a really good, valid thought to point out about immigration and jobs, but I lost it, so just pretend I said something intelligent here.)


Dotcha just hate when that happens!!!



defiantbadgirl -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 12:54:08 PM)

I don't have an obsession with race gooddogbenji. I'm concerned about job shortages. Of course I would take the job of a native if that native quit his/her job. However, if that person had been working for the company for years and was being terminated to be replaced with cheaper help, no I would not take that position. To me that would be morally wrong. I was raised by a father who works for a union so I consider it wrong to interfere with anyone's job security. If someone else took the job, at least I'd know it wasn't me who put some hardworking loyal employee out of a job. I hope you're right about the number of jobs growing with the population. So far I haven't seen it. I worked in call centers for 8 years and whenever one closed down, all I had to do was walk into another, tell them I had so many years experience, and they would ask when I could start. When the last company I worked for closed down, nobody would hire me. During my interviews, I told them I had 8 years of experience and they said they had other interviews to conduct. My skill and experience suddenly didn't mean anything anymore......not with the job shortage......the job market had become a nightmare. Now I'm a full time college student and worry every day if I will have the same problem once I obtain my degree or if I'm just wasting my time. I respect job security and despise anything that threatens it. If someone of another race was terminated from a company after years of hard work for cheaper help, I would be outraged on their behalf.....regardless of their race.



LadySeraphina -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:10:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySeraphina
(I had a really good, valid thought to point out about immigration and jobs, but I lost it, so just pretend I said something intelligent here.)


Dotcha just hate when that happens!!!



Yes! Grrr. Of course, now everyone gets to imagine I had an even better point than I did...



Mercnbeth -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:26:35 PM)

The focus here is misplaced. Even the most adamant on this issue, me for instance, is not against immigration. I'm against ILLEGAL immigration. If a country can be considered sovereign it's rules and laws should be the deciding factor. Choosing which laws to follow and which ones you won't because you don't agree with them philosophically will not prevent you from being arrested and prosecuted even if the judge and jury agree with your position.

On the issue of "Native Americans" ("Dave, Bob, and Sally" et al); the ridiculousness of making a point with a fact over three hundred years in the past is only an argument if you've surrendered that you have no valid argument to address the reality of the present. For example, I feel that it is very unjust that my team, the NY Yankees, won't be playing in the World Series. However, just like the Native Americans of pre-European invasions there is a valid reason for the situation - they LOST! Short of starting a revolution or a civil war that fact won't change. Was it "fair"? In life the only reality "fair" comes with a ferris wheel.  



juliaoceania -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:27:01 PM)

quote:

Sorry juliaoceania, I wasn't trying to offend you on what they liked to be called. I always called them Indians until  recently. I was talking to a potential partner a few months ago. When he told me he was Indian, I asked what tribe he was from and he told me he was from India. Since then, I learned to call them Native Americans to avoid any confusion.



It is really not important to me why you use any kind of distinction

I call people what they want to be called. If they want to be called purple people eaters, I will call them that... it really is not that complicated. I have Cherokee and Oglala ancestory according to my Aunt, I call them Indians... Some of my best friends growing up were Mono Indian.. Notice they included "Indian". It is safest to call people what they call themselves.

quote:

Why does everyone seem to think I'm prejudice against the color of someone's skin? I'm not!!! I have nothing against immigration as long as it doesn't result in job shortages. Do you think it's right for someone who has been working for a company for 10 years to be laid of and replaced by someone with a B1 Visa?



I think that would happen less if we would educate our own children in the fields of science and math... we have to import brains because our children just aren't cutting it these days... look at your own education system where you live for example... like taking evolution out of the classroom in Kansas... seriously


quote:

It happens every day. Immigration shouldn't be allowed until laws are passed to prevent companies from doing this. Once these laws are intact, only a small number of immigrants should be allowed to come here at a time to prevent major job shortages. I repeat, I have nothing against immigration as long as it doesn't threaten job security.


If your bitch is about illegals, put those hiring them blatantly and without regard to the law in prison... don't go bashing all immigrants.

Are you out of work? Want to do the job immigrants do? Well go scrub some toilets or pick some fruit and if you can't find a job  doing that I may have some sympathy for you.



gooddogbenji -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I don't have an obsession with race gooddogbenji. I'm concerned about job shortages. Of course I would take the job of a native if that native quit his/her job. However, if that person had been working for the company for years and was being terminated to be replaced with cheaper help, no I would not take that position. To me that would be morally wrong. I was raised by a father who works for a union so I consider it wrong to interfere with anyone's job security. If someone else took the job, at least I'd know it wasn't me who put some hardworking loyal employee out of a job. I hope you're right about the number of jobs growing with the population. So far I haven't seen it. I worked in call centers for 8 years and whenever one closed down, all I had to do was walk into another, tell them I had so many years experience, and they would ask when I could start. When the last company I worked for closed down, nobody would hire me. During my interviews, I told them I had 8 years of experience and they said they had other interviews to conduct. My skill and experience suddenly didn't mean anything anymore......not with the job shortage......the job market had become a nightmare. Now I'm a full time college student and worry every day if I will have the same problem once I obtain my degree or if I'm just wasting my time. I respect job security and despise anything that threatens it. If someone of another race was terminated from a company after years of hard work for cheaper help, I would be outraged on their behalf.....regardless of their race.


So you're saying because you can't find a job, the immigrants took them all?

Didja check under your mattress?  I always find stuff there.

Yours,


benji



gooddogbenji -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:33:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is safest to call people what they call themselves.



Ever used the "N" word on a black guy?

Yours,


benji



LadyEllen -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:33:48 PM)

I think as CD has said, its not the immigrants' faults in all this. They are like the rest of us, out for themselves and in a lesser position to argue over wages and conditions than the rest of us. Its the employers who are seeking to drive down costs, who take the opportunity to do so, not only through hiring cheaper immigrant labour, but as in Defiant's case I suspect, by automating as much as possible so that experience and skill count for nothing. That latter has happened in my industry, freight. Time was, you needed experience and skills to operate trucks running over Europe - but modern computer systems have automated the requirement for experience and skills out, and so many of my competitors are hiring 19 year olds without a clue about or any interest in the industry, at half and less than half, the cost of employing an experienced transport planner.

As CD has said, there is no point in complaining about the immigrants, if you want to live in a free market economy where you can buy cheaper products and services. The draw to a better life for immigrants, even at lower wages than you would expect for the same work, is down to the employers who take them on, in order to provide cheaper products and services to you. Its the same pressure that is causing jobs to be outsourced to cheaper labour markets. Now since the entire economy of the US (from what I read here at least) is reliant on this process, the chances of any sort of regulation from government to restrict that process is pretty remote I'd say, in the same way that we in the UK have an economy propped up by credit (incidentally paying for a lot of imported crap too) so there will not be any restrictions placed on the credit industry here.

So the question shouldnt be about immigrants per se, but about how the hell our two countries are respectively going to get themselves out of the mire that all of this has gotten us into. The longer we argue the rights and wrongs of immigration and outsourcing, the longer the situation will continue and grow in extent. Immigration is neither right nor wrong, or at least is equally as good as it is bad. Outsourcing is neither right nor wrong, and is equally as good as it is bad. The question I'd say is what can we do to ensure a prosperous future with immigration and outsourcing in place, or what can we do to deter immigration and outsourcing - not by Bushesque posturing and threats, but by using the same market forces which have produced them as its offspring?

E



defiantbadgirl -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:45:30 PM)

I can't think of any other reason for the job shortages except outsourcing and unlimited immigration. Too many people have been laid off and consequently, one now has to compete with 500 people applying for the same job. I'm not just your average joe out there looking for work. I have 8 years of experience plus a very successful track record. Many others are experiencing the same thing. Companies would rather hire cheap help with B1 Visas than someone with skill and experience. Find a way to allow loads of immigration without threatening job security and causing job shortages and I'll be all for it.



juliaoceania -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is safest to call people what they call themselves.



Ever used the "N" word on a black guy?

Yours,


benji


I would if he TOLD me to call him that... but as of yet, that has not happened...smiles



defiantbadgirl -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:49:45 PM)

I'd be interested in hearing your ideas LadyEllen.



gooddogbenji -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 1:58:30 PM)

I had a smart reply, but I got logged out as I hit OK. 

So you'll all just have to picture reading all of my funniest comments in a row, and imagine that that's what it was like.

Yours,


benji



LaTigresse -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 2:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

I had a smart reply, but I got logged out as I hit OK. 

So you'll all just have to picture reading all of my funniest comments in a row, and imagine that that's what it was like.

Yours,


benji


BENJI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s6.gif[/image]



gooddogbenji -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 2:03:46 PM)

What?  It was, actually, all of my funniest comments ever rowed along....  And that would have taken too long to recreate.

Yours,


benji



LaTigresse -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 2:06:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

What?  It was, actually, all of my funniest comments ever rowed along....  And that would have taken too long to recreate.

Yours,


benji


That is as bad as

Kid " ahhhhhhhh mom, I ahhhhhhhh.... have something I think I should tell you......... "

Me " yessssssssss?!?!"

Kid " nevermind"



gentlethistle -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 2:34:10 PM)

Or (revolutionary thought here) we could all just try using less gas/petrol.   Not getting in your car so often and not driving it so far kinda helps with that one.  Things known as public transport, cycling and walking also play a part.  Dull but true.

But the thing that's really surprising me is the assertion that "Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use."  I mean...when did that happen, Dorothy?  Did I fall asleep and we're not in Kansas any more....?

Sometimes I wonder if I've slipped into a parallel universe without warning.  You're telling me that using gas is unAmerican now?  Is there any news yet about motherhood and apple pie, or is the jury still out on those?

Laura



LadyEllen -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 2:56:24 PM)

Hi defiant

Not fully formulated as yet I'm sorry - nearly there but not quite. I've been posting "Blueprint for Britain" threads the last couple of weeks (2 so far), and what I'd propose to deal with the situation will be in that series soon. Its a far more complex issue than any others I dealt with so far though, so it might be a few weeks off yet! The proposals in those threads btw, could be of equal value to the US situation, though thats not particularly their intention. Contributions from our US friends though are ever welcome and valuable.

The basics I'm juggling with at the moment are things like import tariffs, taxation policies, encouraging employment growth and diversity, added value activities etc to produce sufficient internal economic activity/prosperity and to deter imports and outsourcing. Thats all on the government side of things of things of course and would require voters to vote for the country rather than their traditional party etc. What I still need to work on is the means of getting everyone to think of everyone else as a nation whose purpose is a collective activity for mutual benefit - thats the really tricky part!

E



Level -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 3:20:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

I had a smart reply, but I got logged out as I hit OK. 

So you'll all just have to picture reading all of my funniest comments in a row, and imagine that that's what it was like.

Yours,


benji


It was that good, huh? [:D]



philosophy -> RE: "Problem solved" (10/19/2006 3:34:53 PM)

"In life the only reality "fair" comes with a ferris wheel."

Mercnbeth, i have to disagree.....the concept of fairness is a human one, one that we impose on the world. As humans with the ability to make choices we can choose whether or not to be fair......just because it isn't necessarily present in nature doesn't mean we have no ethical or moral imperative to be fair. As machine building and tool using animals we modify nature continually, the ability to be fair is among those qualities that distinguish us as a species.  



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