RE: Withdrawal as correction?

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adaddysgirl -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 8:28:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SlaveAkasha For me, this is the worst thing that Master could ever do. I guess because for me, my father has cut off from me any communication. It really hurts me and I still have moments where I just sit and cry from it. If Master were to do this, I don't think I could take it. It would be even too cruel to use as a punishment, and would mess something up between us that could never be gotten back. I know some Doms use it, and ignore their subs as a form of punishment though, and it works for them. To cut me off emotionally and ignore me, is not punishment, it would be mental abuse in my opinion, because of the baggage from the father/daughter relationship, or lack thereof. Kasha Kasha, my father and i were very close. He died in 1999...and i still have moments with that. But i could not imagine communication being cut off from him when he was alive. i sure feel for you [:(] In any event, you referred to all this as mental abuse. i have thought of it as emotionally damaging....or traumatic. Same idea though. my best wishes to you in dealing with your dad issue. DG

juliaoceania -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 8:40:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Many here are confusing what works for THEM and what MIGHT work for another, submissives are most certainly not all wired alike. In addition, NOTHING works if done poorly and many very complex things work if done well. I agree, but complex things should not be done without finesse I think that a dominant should spend time getting to know someone before he whips out the abandonment tool. I think that all types of corrections and discipline should be done with a specific submissive in mind and not some willy nilly throw things against the wall and see which sticks. I think you are saying the same thing as myself basically, I do not condemn the practice out of hand and I think motivation on the part of the dominant will have much impact on how the submissive perceives it. If it is done in a cruel, manipulative way with little regard to the emotional health of the submissive, I think most submissives will intuitively know that it is not being done for the benefit of the relationship, but just to control her at any cost. On the other hand if it is done for a productive reason a submissive will probably sense this in the demeanor of the dominant because he is not being punitive in his approach, but setting guidelines for thought and introspection... big diff, and think most submissives understand it. Even at that there are some submissives this should never be used with under any circumstance.

TxBlkMistress -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 8:41:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl MissUnleaded, Not to get off topic but just a quick question. What is that Taken in Hand you refer to in your profile? Is there a site for that? DG I had to look it up as well...lol here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taken_in_hand

littleone35 -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 8:50:12 PM)
Quick reply It is very true that the withdrawel tool has to be used very carefully. Take a slav or submisive who is totally solid in her relationship with her Master/Dom and do that sure she will be upset and sad but she could weather the "storm" take one that is insecure o herself or not sure of her relationship it could shatter them beyond repair. Before a Dom uses that tool he has to know how the sub he is going to use it on is going to respond. Ok i have to add in my relationship my Master said to do that would be punishing himself so he would never use that. Not that i am sayng it does not work in others. Matt's littleone

Rayne58 -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 8:54:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SlaveAkasha For me, this is the worst thing that Master could ever do. I guess because for me, my father has cut off from me any communication. It really hurts me and I still have moments where I just sit and cry from it. If Master were to do this, I don't think I could take it. It would be even too cruel to use as a punishment, and would mess something up between us that could never be gotten back. I know some Doms use it, and ignore their subs as a form of punishment though, and it works for them. To cut me off emotionally and ignore me, is not punishment, it would be mental abuse in my opinion, because of the baggage from the father/daughter relationship, or lack thereof. Kasha My ex husband would sometimes not speak to me for days if I upset him. Sometimes I wasn't even sure what I had done[8\|] but it was probably that I'd said no to sex. I'd feel so guilty after a while that I'd give in to what he wanted. Living in a remote rural area didn't help. I was isolated and alone most of the day. If Master ever did that to me it would be cruel. However I know that He never would, because it would be emotionally damaging to me. I punish myself worse than He ever could anyway....[&o]

adaddysgirl -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 9:06:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TxBlkMistress I had to look it up as well...lol here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taken_in_hand Thank you Tx. i see it is akin to Domestic Discipline...which i am into....but with the kink aspects (as MU said...lol). Again, thanks [&:] DG

adaddysgirl -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/28/2006 9:19:41 PM)
Hmmm....i see this page also had a link to D/s, which was kind of interesting too.

MissUnleaded -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/29/2006 1:58:00 AM)
Hi adaddy'sgirl. As others have said, it is similar to domestic discipline. This has some interesting articles: http://www.takeninhand.com/ There is also a Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Taken_In_Hand/

MissUnleaded -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/29/2006 2:35:47 AM)
Wow, some very thoughtful and insightful replies from Dominants as well as submissives. Thankyou all very much. I can see now that withdrawal could in fact be useful in the Ds dynamic, both for correction and for cooling off. Fortunately my Master has a hell of a lot of self control and has never been genuinely angry with me. A few times it has come close, but then he uses that tone on me. I think you know the one I mean. And sternly says 'Someone is being difficult'. This usually makes me think 'Oh shit, do I really want to find out what it's like to deal with an angry Viking? Hell no!' and I back off a bit. I hope to never find out what he's like when he's angry. [sm=whoa.gif]

slavegirl1969 -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/29/2006 6:27:22 AM)
I'm not sure if this is exactly the scenario you meant but the first dominant I met and had physical interraction with used "do not contact me for chat or anything else, If I want to chat/see you I will tell you". I only physically subbed to him once after a huge build-up. It was my first ever time, it was extremely intense and he threw that rule in at the end. I tried very hard to adhere to it but needed to talk etc so broke it once in the days that followed, which did not go down well. It was torture - so much so that I went from high to low to downright angry. A Domme friend of mine had been with me at the place of our first scene to make sure I was safe and she was appalled at his behaviour - she believed very much in aftercare and talk being important and after I had left they had talked and he had told her for a newbie I was a natural and was extremely impressed with me so even though this was not punishment it felt like it. Needless to say one night I not only broke the rule but my anger and frustration was well and truly expressed. End of M/s relationship. From this experience I know that cutting off communication for me is counter-productive and does not work.

badkittyamy -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/29/2006 2:37:43 PM)
This is one of those things that it depends on the person just like with children sometimes physical reprimands are needed. For me lack of communication would be the harshest form of punishment for me. Flogging works but it would be no where as effective as if my Domme chose to ignore me or send my to stay in the guest room. We already discussed this as for some it would be a lesser punishment and so She knows this would be for if i did something truly terrible.

KnightofMists -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/29/2006 3:55:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Just like a hammer can be an effective tool in one role and destructive in another, cutting off communication is very powerful, done well it can be effective, done poorly it can be quite destructive. First off, you have to know and understand how your actions as a dominant affect the person you are dealing with as that will be an important variable. Another is HOW and WHEN you cut off communication. Done in the midst of fighting, it is seldom anything but destructive. Done with a clear time limit and with structure, in essence an adult time out, it can be effective. Since the issues that withdrawal trigger are often ones that drive a submissives behaviors like abandonment, emotional withdrawal, love, attention, ect. are deeply intertwined, playing with this requires skill gained after screwing it up many times. It isn't something I can teach someone and it is going to be different for each couple depending on there dynamic. I wouldn't recommend it easily but I wouldn't rule it out either. Withdrawal of communication can indeed have a powerful effect on the individuals involved. This effect can be either constructive or destructive and being able to use it constructively is much more difficult than taking a destructive path. First I don't use withdrawal as means of correction/punishment. My girls understand that there is two motivations in my use of withdrawal. First options... Is called Time Out. Passions and Emotions can become rather intense at times. If at any time that I or my girls are having difficulty maintaining our appropriate and acceptable behaviors a Time Out will be called. It is simply a time to seperate and take time to allow intense emotions to lower and regain that emotional and mental control and stability. I will note that ... the girls can ask for this "Time Out" themselves ... it is not just me that will could call a "Time Out". It is my choice to have this protocal in place to protect ourselves from walking down paths that are best left undiscovered. Second option... Is what I called Consequence to behavior. My girls understand that I expect certain appropriate behaviors when interacting with me. These expectations are clear and understood. I will not accept interactions from my girls at a level below my expectations... if they want my time and interaction... they will demonstrate the appropriate behaviors for it. Failure to demonstrate the appropriate behavior is a simple consequence... Leave my Presence! Until they can manage to demonstrate the appropriate behaviors that meet the expectations. On the flipside... when they are demonstrating the appropriate behaviors they will get my appropriate behaviors towards them. It is important to note that the consequences do cause a correction... but it is a correction that is internally decided upon. The girls know in advance that inappropriate behaviors leads to a withdrawal of interactions. They "Know" in advance what behaviors is expected. As a result... each and every time that withdrawal of interaction is a consequence... it is because of their choice of behaviors and not because of my disappointment or other emotional feelings at the time. It is objective and clear!. I in essence set the bar that I know they can jump and they must choose to jump it!

LotusSong -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/29/2006 5:08:16 PM)
When I get pissed, I want to be left alone. Plain and simple. I know I'll get over it eventually. Whoever created the situation to get me pissed can just cool their heels. Two things will happen: Either he will be there when I'm ready or he will not. If he choses to leave, no skin off my butt. If he remains, then he's learned a bit more about my nature. We talk and resolve at that time. I won't negotiate in anger.

Mavis -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/30/2006 2:31:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I told myself I would never live through someone using my abandonment issues as a control device ever again. I told myself I would not be with someone who withdrew for any reason, but I have to say time has tempered these thoughts for me. It is one thing to leave someone hanging with no end in sight wondering whether or not they will be "forgiven" or left forever. It is another thing to tell someone that you are not going to talk to them for a couple of hours or a couple of days so they can think about the relationship and what they want from it. julia, you're so very right, it has to be done from a place of security. The groundwork for that really does take time. Some might say i come from a place to too much security, i have endured a couple of "faux-releases" even, knowing that it was a test or a threat. As arrogant as it sounds, at some point, a sub or a slave has to be so convinced of their own value and worth that they don't assume they could be easily tossed aside. That said, it has to be balanced with clear knowledge that nobody is indespensable, and if Dom or Master would keep a sub or slave with a pattern or disobedience, They wouldn't be much of a Dom or Master worth serving. To have a healthy power-imbalance relationship, each party has to be balanced internally. Odd, that!

littlespike -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/30/2006 8:27:18 PM)
Hi MsUnleaded: i can not speak for anyone else but this weekend i made a major booboo with my Mistress. Needless to say i cut off all communication with the world. My poor cell phone was turned off and i did not contact anyone. Well today i called my Mistress and explained that i was very upset and was sulking for the weekend. We are in the mid-transition during a move from LA to Austin. i should pack everything up this weekend. As it was i was more upset than she was. She had a great time at the fetish party. A Halloween fetish party on a 170 acre ranch. But it was without her favorite dress, ten-foot bullwhip, and misc. toys. She had a great time, which makes me feel better. But now her dress and toys are lost somewhere in the priority mail system, uugghh... Wrong zip code on the box.... So a few days can make a world of difference.... spike

slavemaia -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/30/2006 8:40:27 PM)
i find no value whatsoever in being cut off from my Master. If it were used as punishment it would only serve to "armour" me up - in other words, the emotional pain would be so great that i would have to do something to deal with it - and that something would be to withdraw emotionally from Him. To me it's similar to removing my collar - i just think there are certain things that are so detrimental to the growth and health of the relationship that they should never be done under any circumstance. Perhaps early on in a relationship, before the bond is too strong, being cut off from one's Dominant would make a sincere sub/slave really take a good look at what s/he was doing and wanted.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/31/2006 9:30:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissUnleaded In the 'Ever been too honest?' thread the topic of cutting off communication was raised, as a tool for controlling a submissive or slave. Mavis wrote, in a rather interesting post, that she thought there were two ways to view a Dominant's withdrawal: quote: ORIGINAL: Mavis There are two ways to see it, both valid at different times: Stop. I am sick of what you're doing to inconvenience Me. Stop. I am sick of watching you feed on unhealthy attitudes or emotions. I didn't want to hijack that thread so I decided to start a new topic. I hope that's appropriate; I haven't been on the boards very long. I question whether cutting off communication ever IS an effective method for teaching a sub or slave a lesson. It's passive. It seems 'undomly' to me. As I said, it would erode my trust and confidence in his ability to control me. He can't control me if he's not there. There are plenty of effective ways to correct a sub/slave and prevent her self destruction that don't involve withdrawal. So, the question is, have you been in situations where this has worked for you and your Dominant? If so, can you explain the circumstances and why it turned out to be effective? Did your Master/Mistress explain why they were cutting off communication first, or did s/he simply say 'don't contact me for a few days'? If it was not effective, why not? What was the outcome? Would there have been a better way to handle the situation? As I mentioned in the other thread, it has thankfully not happened to me, so I am honestly curious about how it has worked (or not) for other people. thankfully, this method of punishment has only been employed once since i have been with my Master. it was early on in our relationship, before we were living together. for practical reasons, i can't see the same thing working now that we share a home. anyway...i had been disobedient...done something which i knew he had specifically told me not to do. it was not willful disobedience...it was a tough no-win situation where i truly could have done nothing else. and while my Master knew and was fully understanding of this, still i was disobedient, i had broken a rule, and therefore must be punished, regardless. the punishment was no contact of any kind for 5 days. no visits, no phone calls, no emails, no nothing. since going a few hours without contact of some kind with him was very rare, and because i was so utterly dependent on him emotionally, this was the worst punishment i could have imagined, next to release. was it effective? yes, as the point was to hurt me a great deal and to invoke fear in me of my Master. that was certainly achieved. but it was not easy for my Master....He valued our communication and time together as much as i did. so knowing that he was hurting to only added to the intensity of the punishment. so for us, yes it was very effective, it was not damaging to our union in any way, and hopefully nothing of the sort will ever have to be repeated.

captiveprincess -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/31/2006 7:04:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire I have used this on only one occasion. Angel was in a mood, I was getting smartass responses that were fueled by his stress rather than his usual personality. While I understood where it was coming from, I decided that ratehr than punishing him for his behavior, cutting off contact would be more effective. That way, he had a chance to work things out of his system before he got me good and angry at something he said, and I could explain to him why it was inapropriate when he would not be getting defenseive about it. I deal with an extreme fear of abandonment. I have to be very careful with withdrawal of communication, even for short periods of time. It can easily be misunderstood as your not wanting to deal wth them, or their problems, ratehr than giving someone the time needed to make sure things are right in their head. While communication after the fact can help, if they are in too bad a state beforehand it might not be able to undo damage. Withdrawal, like everything else, is a very effective tool if it can be handled properly. It makes a better threat than it does an action, I find, especially if it has been properly used once and they know you arent kidding. My 2 cents DV I agree with DV that withdrawal can be an excellent tool, and Her example is an extremely good one of where this type of discipline would be beneficial. It's nice to get a Domme's point of view on this topic, especially one who clearly knows how best to handle Her sub. Speaking as a happily collared submissive and also one who is highly sensitive to the moods and feelings of others (especially my Domme), being made to avoid contact with M'Lady is absolutely the worst punishment that I could think of, which also unfortunately makes it the most effective for me. I need contact with M'Lady to keep me centered, and not being allowed to be near Her just reinforces the fact that I've done something wrong and gives me time to think about it and how best I can correct it so that it doesn't happen again. That being said, I would hate not being able to be near Her, but then again a punishment isn't supposed to be pleasurable, is it? Even if M'Lady chooses not to actively discipline me, just knowing that I have disappointed Her is enough to make me punish myself. Often if I know that I've done something wrong, even if She doesn't specifically punish me, I just don't feel that I deserve to get to be near Her, as being able to touch Her and be in Her presence is a privilege, until I have sufficiently repented and made up for my wrongdoing - a self-appointed punishment, I suppose. But either way, having no contact with M'Lady is the most feared and most effective punishment that works for me. Lady K's (kc692) collared submissive, ~shelly

captiveprincess -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (10/31/2006 7:20:11 PM)
Very well put, Knightof Mists! Couldn't have stated it better...

babysburnin -> RE: Withdrawal as correction? (11/1/2006 9:05:43 PM)
Avoidance has never worked for me - it also seems to me as passive. I much prefer "direct" direction and communication. A passive/aggressive Dom?!?

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