Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation

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Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 1/30/2005 12:18:11 PM

Mouthy

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Joined: 1/18/2005
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I've seen profiles in which some men have indicated that they feel they have expertise in verbal humiliation. What I wonder is: how does somebody come to feel that he's an expert at it? I ask in part because there's a part of me, that I've never been able to satisfy, that turns on HARD to abusive language. But when men have really used it on me, almost invariably it hits me so negatively that I find myself thrown all the way out of the scene in a heartbeat by the sheer force of my anger. Knowing this, I've just opted to keep it out of scenes altogether, rather than play with what I know is so volatile an element.

How did you guys GET to be "experts?" It seems like, knowing my own reactions to it, you're doing the equivalent of bomb disposal work, blindfolded. (I'm not one of those women who cry in response to feeling menaced; I tend to fight back with everything I've got.)

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 1/30/2005 1:23:25 PM

MadameBette

Posts: 62
Joined: 9/8/2004
From: Long Island, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mouthy

...there's a part of me, that I've never been able to satisfy, that turns on HARD to abusive language.
...almost invariably it hits me so negatively
... I've just opted to keep it out of scenes altogether

How did you guys GET to be "experts?" It seems like, knowing my own reactions to it, you're doing the equivalent of bomb disposal work, blindfolded.

Dear Mouthy,
Do you know why it hits you so negatively? Is it the words that were used, or is it an attitude projected? ... Are you being honest with yourself? Are you sure this is what you really want? What are your fantasies in this regard? Does the play you've experienced even come close?

If you can answer affirmatively to these most of these questions, (except the last) then you obviously aren't playing with "experts". Another word comes to mind... starts with an 'a'...

Your analogy is very good: verbal humiliation is a minefield.
Both 'players' need excellent communication and some knowledge of each other before it should be attempted.

The whole key to verbal humiliation is DENIABILITY.

This is part of an essay on Humiliation from my website, http://www.madamebette-bdsm-info.com

quote:

Deniability

Name-calling is very often used in humiliation play, and very much enjoyed by many submissives. However, some care must be taken here that it falls into the category of deniability.
A sub may not mind if she’s called a slut or a whore, but call her a bitch, and that particular sub may freak if she has a negative history with that particular word.
This is why you must know your sub and try to avoid tripping her triggers. What is good for one person may cause serious problems to another. Certain adjectives, like ‘fat’, for example, can easily pull someone back into reality faster than a splash of ice water. She may feel really and truly insulted, and if it were meant intentionally, it would be abuse.
Your partner can accept being called these names because she knows that’s not her.
She knows she really isn’t a whore or a bitch, etc. She may be 'your' slut, but she’s okay with that.
But let's say - if you call her fat, and she has an issue with her weight, and thinks you meant it… even if you didn’t, - because it’s a concern of hers, - she can’t dismiss it from her mind. There is no capacity for deniability. She starts to think you really think she’s fat!
And that’s all she can think about!
You’ve pushed one of her buttons, and the play just took a nosedive.

quote:

Is this what you're talking about? If so, your partner needs to know what your particular 'buttons' are and which to avoid.
So, communication is of the utmost importance.
You are wise to avoid this type of play until you can find someone you can trust to stick to acceptible (to you) forms of verbal abuse.

This is a prime example of what happens when scenes are not thoroughly negotiated beforehand.
If you meet someone at a party or club, and you are just 'bottoming', you can get by with a quick discussion of 'limits'. However, if verbal humiliation is to be incorporated, there has to be more.
It doesn't 'take away' anything from the scene if you have talked about what will happen beforehand. There are always variations that can be used to still make it interesting and 'different' while maintaining the spirit of the negotiation. As you have learned to hard way, it's in not discussing all beforehand that the danger lies.

Hope this helps.

~ Bette

(in reply to Mouthy)

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 1/30/2005 3:41:40 PM

Mouthy

Posts: 35
Joined: 1/18/2005
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I think you got it in a nutshell, Bette, and thank you. I react most strongly to being called a whore, while one of my most deeply-rooted kinks is best satisfied in scenes that cut so close to being an encounter between a streetwalker and a john that the only element missing is the exchange of cash. I've been pursuing this kind of scene off and on for, say, six months (after fantasizing about it a lot longer than that, you may be sure

) and I KNOW I like it. A lot. But let a man betray a *hint* of a belief there's only one slut in the scene, and it's not him, and I feel such contempt for him I can hardly contain it.

I think it's one of those things I'll have to resign myself to envying people in relationships for: that they can sometimes establish so strong a base of trust and support that it can bear the weight of playing with verbal humiliation. For me, in these scenes with strangers that require maybe a total of four emails to set up, the support is just not there to be playing with that particular brand of dynamite.

So, I guess the way the experts get there is one step at a time, and carefully, huh?

(in reply to MadameBette)

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 1/30/2005 4:43:00 PM

MadameBette

Posts: 62
Joined: 9/8/2004
From: Long Island, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mouthy

I think you got it in a nutshell, Bette, and thank you.

So, I guess the way the experts get there is one step at a time, and carefully, huh?

You're welcome.

I actually don't think anyone can call themselves an 'expert'. The closest you can come to being expert, is to be constantly aware that there is always a potential for harm, even in the best relationships. Sometimes a hidden memory will surface, even when both parties think they have been completely honest with one another.

Does that mean you can't have this kind of play?
No.
It just means that the Dom needs to be careful and a good 'read'. If he sees some tension in the sub, (other than what he was going for) then he needs to change 'direction'.
If it's too late for that, then the scene must be ended immediately.
The Dom should then hold and comfort the sub. As soon as feasible, the sub should be asked, in a non threatening and non judgmental way, when did it start to go wrong? Why? Were there any particular words that triggered the event? What did it feel like?
It is extremely important not to place any blame or guilt on either party if it was unintentional.
How did you end the scenes previously?

Just go slow, and be careful about whom you play with. Try letting him know what the 'turn on' is for you, and what turns you 'off' as clearly as possible beforehand. Go with your 'gut' as far as do you think this person is astute enough, not only to 'get it', but also not go over the line you have drawn. (This is NOT the time for pushing limits) <smiles> (Okay, I don't know how to do those 'smiley' things!)

~ Bette

(in reply to Mouthy)

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 2/5/2005 1:01:33 AM

Salome

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Joined: 8/26/2004
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Hi Mouthy ...all

Some really good replies here and some excellent advice. I agree that you need to make known what your turn offs are. I, personally, am not into alot of verbal humiliation and not just at any time either. I remember once playing with a new partner and he started in with a whole string of obscenities directed at me, which I was fine with to a point but when he got to stupid whore...I called an all stop. I am neither stupid nor am I a whore, and because I was not comfortable with him and not secure in his feelings for me, these words came out mean, misogynistic and hurtful. I totally understand your feelings on this and while I enjoy SOME verbal humilliation, there are a few things that turn me cold. I am certain to communicate these feelings early on so that we can both enjoy each other more through understanding.

Laura

(in reply to MadameBette)

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 2/5/2005 2:27:14 AM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameBette
The whole key to verbal humiliation is DENIABILITY.

This is part of an essay on Humiliation from my website, http://www.madamebette-bdsm-info.com
quote:

Deniability

Name-calling is very often used in humiliation play, and very much enjoyed by many submissives. However, some care must be taken here that it falls into the category of deniability.
Hope this helps.
~ Bette

Thanks MadamBette,
great post, gave me something to think about...
I went out with this slave (who was not), and he used to express a desire for humiliation, so I obliged, but he would frequently come later and ask if I really felt that way (sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't)...
How does one know what to use and what not to? M

(in reply to MadameBette)

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 2/5/2005 6:53:05 AM

MizSuz

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I went out with this slave (who was not), and he used to express a desire for humiliation, so I obliged, but he would frequently come later and ask if I really felt that way (sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't)...
How does one know what to use and what not to? M

I've known a lot of humiliation and/ or degradation enthusiasts who really need a loving relationship to explore that part of themself quite simply because they are fearful that the person doing it really doesn't respect them. They are confused by their desire for the humiliation rush and their need to know they are significant and respected. Often they are confused regarding the difference between humiliation and degradation. These folks, in my experience, tend to need a lot of aftercare/ reassurance in post-play.

There's a fine line between humiliation and degradation, too. It's like the difference between telling someone they acted stupid and they are stupid. Two very different messages there. As a top, I dont particularly care for degradation play. I don't play with pieces of shit, so why would I call you one? I realize that this is the kink of a lot of people, it's not my kink however.

I can relate to the original poster. Perhaps it's because of the personality that makes me a dominant, or perhaps not, but I go to a very aggressive place when someone tries to suggest that I'm not good enough in a scene. I'm reminded of a scene I did with a very dear friend who is a spankophile. I asked him for a disciplinary spanking and all was well and good until he started in with the verbal humiliation. I quite literally went off on him. He's this huge ex-marine and when I hit boiling point (in .2 seconds) I wrenched out of my restraints and got in his face FAST. It was the look of surprise and shock on his face that brought me back to the truth of what was happening and in less than ten seconds I had gone from pulling out of my restraints to screaming at him with my finger in his face to curled up in a ball in the corner crying over the button that got pressed. God love this man forever - he had the presence of mind to sit next to me quietly and not need to touch me or try to make it better. It didn't take long until I was sobbing like a baby in his arms and talking about that issue in a very cathartic way. That's the only time anything like that ever happened to me and it was verbal humiliation that took me there.

Curiously, the button that was getting pressed had more to do with my own feelings about having humiliated someone in a dysfunctional, vanilla way in my past. It was a shame of my own that I needed to forgive myself for and it came from out of nowhere and with no warning. I suppose this could be likened to your gentleman that asked if you really felt that way, only I was doing the reassurance for myself.

I was very lucky to have had a dear friend who loves and respects me, and doesn't need to try to 'fix' things, with me at the time. He allowed me my process (acknowledging the action, the feelings and finally the forgiveness) and waited for me to let him know what I needed from him. In short, he was what I would aspire to be like for someone else in a similar situation.

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 2/5/2005 6:58:34 AM >

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“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Idle curiosity re: verbal humiliation - 2/10/2005 7:20:17 AM

SirSTRYKER

Posts: 284
Joined: 8/15/2004
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Words trigger emotions and can cause a constellation of pleasures or a series of desasters. A wrong or incorrect timed word said, is like a bullet leaving the barrell, IT CAN NOT BE PUT BACK, NOR THE HARM IT CAUSED UNDONE. In each encounter I've had either in real life or on line, the two most important questions I ask are the persons age and limits. Asking these two questions saves a lot of undue pain and unwanted legal hassles. Verbal abuse is not only aimed at an intended victim, many people are verbal abuse "experts" already...the way language is abused.
Adieu and Be Well A/all

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