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With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 3:33:56 AM

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Joined: 10/24/2006
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Recently i read a post about punishment ideas and someone replied that with drawing Dominance is a known form of punishment/discipline. i was wondering if most Dominates would consider this a legitimate form of pun/discipline? Also what possible , if any , serious emotional effects it may have on the submissive? i realize every case is different so i offer a few details about my situation for perspective. i am fairly new to the lifestyle 1 3/4 yr. i am still very needy and tend to harbor a lot of guilt for things, even things that i had no control over. punishment for me isn't fun but it is necessary for me to forgive myself for my indiscretions and move forward. It's also my only way to gage myself as to weather i'm doing well or need to work harder to please my Master. Where i am having a hard time is i do not receive punishments instead the TPE is completely with drawn every time leaving me feeling empty and alone and very angry. This seems to be an almost daily occurrence now it even seems i am left without more often then not. He says punishing me would just be rewarding me with attention and He will not reward me for bad behavior. i don't know what to do but i feel this is taking an emotional toll on me , leaving me feeling worthless and like i'm just too stupid to get it. please i'm not sure exactly what i'm asking but if any one has any insight on the matter i would really appreciate hearing from you . Thank You in advance. lilost1

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 4:28:08 AM

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i always try to make it clear to a potential partner that the withdrawal thing would not be emotionally healthy for me. Even still, it did happen to me once and the relationship ended. But it was really tough.

i can't tell from your post if your partner knew this ahead of time, agreed to it, then changed it down the road, or what....but if it really is taking a toll on your emotional well being, and it looks like it's getting worse and not better....you may need to rethink what this person really means to you....and what you mean to him.

Perhaps he doesn't realize the damage he is causing?

In any event, good luck with this one. It is a tough situation

DG

(in reply to lilost1)

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 5:42:37 AM

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From: West Palm Beach, FL
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I think I see something different.

Punishment has to be effective in order to modify the unwanted action. If (for example) spanking a sub's bottom is not correcting the behavior & the sub actually enjoys getting their bottom spanked, then why would a dom continue spanking the sub's bottom as a form of punishment... this is rewarding bad behavior.

The interactions between partners that are mutually liked & incorporated into a dom & sub's "special time" their "play" (reward) cannot be the same activities that the dom would use for punishment. So if the submissive is masochistic & enjoys these activities a dom will have to find effective ways to punish so that the sub is not getting what they ultimately seek out.

To withdraw or even ignore a sub can really be viewed as the most severe form of punishment because the sub is now left to figure it all out. The ignore a sub should only be done after you have attempted many other types of correction. Myself, if it comes to ignore, that is typically the last step before complete & final release.

If a dom is using ignore without a set time limit & they not communicating with the sub after this time frame then they are actually not doing anything to correct the behavior & at this point the ignore is useless. The sub is just left hanging in the wind & this is what will have them question their place. I would view this dominant as inexperienced &/or most likely at the end of their rope... fresh out of ideas. Maybe they have simply lost interest.

Regardless to all I said here because this is all speculation, the only way to get it all worked out & find out just what is going on is for the two people involved to sit down & talk it out.

If the dom expresses that he is not happy with certain behaviors & tells the sub that these things will no longer be tolerated... in a perfect world the sub should respect their dom's wish & stop. Yet we don't live in a perfect world. At the time the dom tells the sub that I don't care for A, B & C & I want this to stop... the dom should also say... if this continues then I will do A, B &/or C as punishment & if this doesn't prevent this from happening then you will face being released.

Communicate the expectations. Define what it is you want from each other. Discuss what it is you feel are rewards & define what it is you will use as punishment. DO this ahead of time & that way you aren't frustrated dom or a freaked out sub not knowing what's next.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 10/30/2006 5:44:16 AM >

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 5:52:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lilost1

Recently i read a post about punishment ideas and someone replied that with drawing Dominance is a known form of punishment/discipline. i was wondering if most Dominates would consider this a legitimate form of pun/discipline? Also what possible , if any , serious emotional effects it may have on the submissive? i realize every case is different so i offer a few details about my situation for perspective. i am fairly new to the lifestyle 1 3/4 yr. i am still very needy and tend to harbor a lot of guilt for things, even things that i had no control over. punishment for me isn't fun but it is necessary for me to forgive myself for my indiscretions and move forward. It's also my only way to gage myself as to weather i'm doing well or need to work harder to please my Master. Where i am having a hard time is i do not receive punishments instead the TPE is completely with drawn every time leaving me feeling empty and alone and very angry. This seems to be an almost daily occurrence now it even seems i am left without more often then not. He says punishing me would just be rewarding me with attention and He will not reward me for bad behavior. i don't know what to do but i feel this is taking an emotional toll on me , leaving me feeling worthless and like i'm just too stupid to get it. please i'm not sure exactly what i'm asking but if any one has any insight on the matter i would really appreciate hearing from you . Thank You in advance. lilost1

withdrawal is a brutal punishment. I have mixed feelings about it being 'right' or 'wrong'. It has been effective in my case, most likely because it was that painful.

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 6:51:48 AM

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From: KC area Missouri
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I think you need to communicate your feelings on this honestly with him. Is he telling you specifically what the punishment is for and how long it will last or is he just doing it each time you anger him in some way (which is what it sounds like from your words). Has he clearly told you certain behaviors he will not tolerate? Has he set rules and guidelines with you in a mutually discussed and agreed on dynamic? Is he new to this? Is this online or real/time? I would sit down and talk with him openly and honestly about the issue, what it's doing to you, etc. If he is unwilling to even do that, then perhaps it's time for you to reevaluate whether he is right for you. Communication and trust are two-way streets. Both parties need to do their part or it's not going to work.

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 7:42:57 AM

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This is a tough subject for me as I ackowledge that plenty enough relationships use the withdrawl/ignore sometimes as punishment and it is certainly effective to most of them from what I have heard and read. To me though it is the one punishment I have communicated that for lack of a better term is a hard limit with me.

To me, and I severely state just me, communication and the active power exchange in a relationship is not something that mature people who care for each other would withold for any reason. To me it is just comes off as juvenile and the few times it was done to me it only made me angry. It was just a waste of time and helped fester negative feelings and hurt my feeling for him not help my feelings and be remorseful. I think communication is not something to ever be toyed with. There are many other punishments that can be administered that do not have BDSM aspects that a slave will surely not enjoy.

Again personally, simple words like "you dissapointed me" or "you hurt me" along with getting something taken away from me was way more of a punishment then I am not going to engage with you. The OP my suggestion is to communicate with him that this type of punishment is not getting the desired effect that he or you wants.

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 9:31:42 AM

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Your dominant appears to be treating you as he did treat his last sub instead of bothering to look at you and see what is most effective with you. Or perhaps it wasn't very effective with his ex because she isn't with him either.

In either case it's a vicious cycle. I'm sorry for you.

About all you can do is be honest that his constant withdrawal has caused you to withdraw submission and lose trust in him. And ask if he plans to continue in this manner until neither of you cares to reconnect? Personally I don't like being treated in a cookie cutter fashion, and I haven't much use for anyone who insists that my feelings aren't real or that I shouldn't feel the way I do, instead I ought to feel just like the book he read said I should.

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 10:33:07 AM

Mavis

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my first reastion is to your line "almost daily".. what are you doing... or what is He expecting, that you cannot comply with on an "almost daily" basis? egads. Is it one thing repeatedly, or a series or set of concepts or behaviors that is causing almost daily punishments?

Two, on "dominance withdrawls"... i am one of those that does receive this type of correction occassionally, and it works well for U/us. But that doesn't mean it's good for everybody. One thing i have learned though, the "dominance withdrawls" weren't really my jonesing for His controls... it was more my "burger king, have it your way" side wanting to find dominance in the flavor and type i ordered at the counter. If your need is to serve or be obediant to Him, then even in temporary non-communication, are your needs not being met if you're serving by being obedient?

There can be a way to be too dependant on the feedback. One of the posters here has mentioned having a sub or slave write an essay or something, then burning it.. She's right, the task was done, does it require the appreciative feedback to be done properly? Not really, if the Dominant doesn't so choose. That's not an easy mind-set, and for some, it will never be who they are. But for others, it might be a new recognition of your submission. you just have to decide which works for your situation.

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 1:28:21 PM

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Ignore is the most brutal punishment that I use, and I do stick to the time limit set otherwise it can go bad. The longest I've done this was for 2 days, she was chained up in the spare bathroom with a box of crackers and a pack of hotdogs. The door was locked from the outside and I had a baby monitor hidden in there in case anything happened. She was in tears and just holding her was almost overwhelming for her hence why I try to refrain from it.

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 2:00:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

.[ Is he telling you specifically what the punishment is for and how long it will last or is he just doing it each time you anger him in some way (which is what it sounds like from your words). Has he clearly told you certain behaviors he will not tolerate? Has he set rules and guidelines with you in a mutually discussed and agreed on dynamic? Is he new to this? Is this on line or real/time? ]

Thank You this is actually helping my peace of mind more than i can say. This is real time and He says he's experienced. he is older but i can only go by what he has told me. i've never met any one he knows in the lifestyle . His words are all i have to go by. This is something that he does each time i make him angry and can last days. no clear reason or duration is usually stated. he has told me clearly some behaviors will not be tolerated, but once he's withdrawn there are no rules really and he's withdrawn more often then not (it seems to me but it could feel like more then it is from my view point). i really don't know when a rule matters any more. it seems there are no consequences to any behavior either way .

(in reply to SweetSarijane)

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 2:07:52 PM

Mavis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lilost1

once he's withdrawn there are no rules really and he's withdrawn more often then not (it seems to me but it could feel like more then it is from my view point). i really don't know when a rule matters any more. it seems there are no consequences to any behavior either way .

erm... isn't the withdrawl THE consequence for a misbehavior? The rules don't go away just because you're not in contact.. as long as you've still agreed to follow His rules. i'm not saying it's a good use of discipline, but if you're saying the only thing that "counts" as a consequence for behavior is to get a punishment that you like better than what He's doing.. then you and He should switch labels, He would be obeying you to allow you to choose. And honestly, some couples do work it out that way, there are Dominants that feel if the submissive chooses her corrections, they learn faster.

(in reply to lilost1)

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 4:00:03 PM

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I think I have more questions than an answer to your OP.... I feel the answer to my questions are needed to give any type of informed opinion on your situation.

As I understand it...... the Consequence of inappropriate behavior is to remove TPE (as you see it)

So... the question... are you aware before hand that the behaviors you demonstrate are inappropriate and the consequence of these behaviors is withdrawal of TPE?

and if you are aware they are inappropriate... then why do you make the choice to behave inappropriately and suffer the known consequence to these types of behaviors?

OR

... if you are not aware that they are inappropriate or what the consequence is... then you have a serious communication issue within your relationship.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 10/30/2006 4:03:04 PM >

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 5:36:54 PM

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Oh my Master tries the ignore with me. I think its because sometimes i just blow his mind. Some odd reason, a punishment only lasts so long with me. He thinks i need a good spanking every hour. LOL

i remember him once saying he's tried x, y, z, and q and none seem to stick. So he's tried ignore. Doesnt work worth shit. I get irritable, cranky, i distance myself from him and i basically pull up out the relationship. I back off and say "whatever" Yet, also, he doesnt tell me excatly what i've done wrong, doesnt discuss it with me, its an undefined amount of time.. so like some one else said i'm just swinging in the wind Eh, whatever. <wicked grin> i've found my ways to combat it. Hell, i've even started ignoring him right back when i'm upset and i follow the same guidlines he does. LOL

Of course, i'm terrible at communication. I have yet to say anything about this to him. I just flooow with it. It could be considered comical. <wicked grin> He likes to think that if i was unable to speak to him or a week, i'd go nuts. HA! Little does he know!

With this ignore thing, even with other punishments, i dont think Dom's realise that enough of the same thing and a slave will get "over it" Especially with something so hurtful. Eventually it stops hurting, eventually the slave stops caring about the "ignore" and eventually they're going to get abit vindicitive and turn it right back at them.

Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 10/30/2006 5:38:44 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 5:57:20 PM

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quote:

He says punishing me would just be rewarding me with attention and He will not reward me for bad behavior.

This sounds like double talk to me; if he had an imagination he could come up with some kind of "attention" that definitely wouldn't be considered a reward. Since this is the way he handles every instance of punishment, it makes me think he just prefers this method because it is an easy, passive form of punishment for him where he doesn't have to do anything at all.

The silent treatment is something I have used myself, but not for punishment -- it has been to send a message to a cunt that "you've really fucked up now and once you get your ass back under control you'll get to face the consequences". From my tone there, you can probably tell that it is the sort of thing I'd use rarely and only when a girl is acting so nutty that I won't even bother trying to deal with her until she gets herself under control. It is useful though, because it gives her time to calm down while I dream up a nice punishment to really challenge her.

Edited to add: There is one case where punishment could be a reward of attention -- that is where you are a brat who continually misbehaves. If that is the case here, then I think you'd be happier with different partners -- you need a guy who has a punishment kink and he needs a gal who isn't an annoying pain in the ass.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 10/30/2006 6:04:12 PM >

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 6:24:28 PM

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Not a lot of details so hard to properly access the situation however there are some things that can be said in general.

The main thing for a Dominant Man is CONTROLLING his property. Withdrawal is not a dominant trait. How can a submissive be corrected or molded into what he wants if there is no contact with her? It just doesn't add up.

Just because someone calls himself a dominant does not make him one.

In real life, 24/7/365 there is reality hitting you squarely in the face and there is no faking it. I would advise all of the ladies to very, very carefully consider who they submit to, it is easier to avoid trouble than to get out of it.

(in reply to lilost1)

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 6:36:05 PM

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My question would be, if he is withdrawing more than he is communicating and there seems to be reason to punish you just about daily, wether there is much of a relationship there anymore. I know ful well if Angel were giving me reason to punish him every other day, he would not be with me any longer.If your so poorly behaved, why is he trying to keep you, and why isnt he telling you how to FIX your behavior instead of just letting you think about your mistakes. One thing I ahve always said, if you dont know something is wrong, I cant expect you to fix it. I will never punish for a problem I did not tell Angel was a bad thing ahead of time, unless its a common knowledge thing. If he canot tell you what you are doing wrong, how to stop, and why it bothers him so badly as to pull away constantly, I would believe that he is not Dominant enough to handle a TPE and perhaps you would be best served leaving before some major emotional damage is done.

My opinion
DV

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 6:58:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lilost1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

.[ Is he telling you specifically what the punishment is for and how long it will last or is he just doing it each time you anger him in some way (which is what it sounds like from your words). Has he clearly told you certain behaviors he will not tolerate? Has he set rules and guidelines with you in a mutually discussed and agreed on dynamic? Is he new to this? Is this on line or real/time? ]

Thank You this is actually helping my peace of mind more than i can say. This is real time and He says he's experienced. he is older but i can only go by what he has told me. i've never met any one he knows in the lifestyle . His words are all i have to go by. This is something that he does each time i make him angry and can last days. no clear reason or duration is usually stated. he has told me clearly some behaviors will not be tolerated, but once he's withdrawn there are no rules really and he's withdrawn more often then not (it seems to me but it could feel like more then it is from my view point). i really don't know when a rule matters any more. it seems there are no consequences to any behavior either way .

I'm glad it's helping you. Take time to figure out what you really want. Here's more questions and views.

Ok he has told you certain behaviors he won't tolerate....do you avoid those behaviors? Is it only those behaviors that cause him to do this or is it just anything that he decides in the moment is unacceptable? Will he sit with you one on one to openly discuss your concerns? If not then reevaluate the relationship, even end it if it's not right for you.

On the rules...so long as you are in the agreed on dynamic the rules are there...the withdrawl punishment does not negate the rules per se. The rules are negated when the relationship is ended. That's my view on the rules comment.

You say what he says is all you have to go by. You might want to get involved in local real time groups and make friends. There are a number of excellent non fiction books that will open your eyes and your mind to the varied possibilities. If you are very new to this then you really need to gain knowledge and find where you fit. He may not be the right one for you. Not every Dom fits every sub and vice versa.

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(in reply to lilost1)

RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 7:39:04 PM

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It has been for over a decade, and remains, my severest punishment.

"Bad sub - no scene."

I've used it - twice. The only crime that merits that is the attempt to top from the bottom. I've never used it twice on the same sub.

Overusing any punishment is not, IMNSHO, good training.

Midnight Writer

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 7:57:40 PM

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Withdrawl of effection for me is a very bad way to punish if you want to keep me. If i feel someone pulling away i have a tendancy to pull back faster and close the door. Once closed, it's damn near impossible to open again.

Personally I view it as emotional and mental cruelty and should not be used for punishment. You either care for the other person or you don't. To say yes one day, no the next then expect everything to go back to normal a week later by saying " Oh I was just teaching you a lesson" is not right IMO anyway.

I know there are others that would beg and plead for another chance, for the other one to love them again. I wont, I just move on. Not saying it doesn't hurt, but you can't play a game if there is only one player right?

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RE: With drawing Dominance withdrawals - 10/30/2006 8:14:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

. If i feel someone pulling away i have a tendancy to pull back faster and close the door. Once closed, it's damn near impossible to open again.

Sound like me. I do the same..if someone is pulling away, I back off and move on. I don't play those games. Not worth it at all.

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(in reply to akisha)

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