Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijack the thread)

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Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijack th... - 10/31/2006 12:36:23 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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Reading the other thread, some questions became poised in the front of my mind. Going off on a tangent here after the fingers flew, it was too long, so to be polite I put it in a new thread.
__________________________________________________

I am here to learn a few things. I have only had one switch/switch relationship and we were both novices when we started. It was all pretty simple in the beginning and by the time it got really heavy we knew each other pretty well.

Everyone seems to be focusing on inficting too much pain, bending a bottom too far out of shape or activities that exceed limits, set or unset.

What I wonder is about more serious dangers. Even someone in perfect health could have a bad lunch that wants to come up on them. The idea of throwing up into a gag sends chills up and down my spine. Even throwing up tied spread eagled laying on the back would be pretty nasty.

Though less terrible, even without the gag there can be other problems. A leg cramp can be very painful, and it's not inconcievable that it could occur during 'certain' activities, if ya know whata mean. All it may take is to release the limb and work it a bit, but if left unchecked this is no way to inflict pain in such a situation.

Perhaps these things never happen to some, but one should never say never. Maybe the odds of it can be minimized by eating light and not working out that day, things like that, but you never know. So what does one do even if the two know each other well. Say the bottom is gagged, are we talking a different kind of groan here or what ? A certain winking of the eyes ? Those of you who don't use a safeword, has anything like this ever happened to you and if so, how did you tell ?

We were young and dumb when we started. We drank and smoked playing, except the gagged one. We should've setup something. I'm glad nothing bad happened. We did make as much eye contact as possible, of course that is not all the time, no way it could be.

Speaking of the eyes, one could get something in their eye, perhaps a bit of a frayed end of a flogger flies off. Could happen.

So what I'm asking is, if the sub/bottom is to be gagged, what do you use for an emergency type situation ? Of course I have no idea, but if not gagged the bottom can just say "Oh shit, I got a leg cramp", and of course a good Dom/top would ask "Which leg ?". Unstrap it, work it around and massage it a bit and say "All better now ?", and then of course strap it back down and get back to work :-). (joking) If you don't use a gag this is obviously not an issue, but if you do, some ideas ?

I am almost thinking something physical here, while I did like the idea of humming the ABC song, some have music going during play. I know we did. You just might not hear humming through a gag.

OK, I am not stupid, if I got her in the throes of ecstasy and she just freezes up, I would take that as a sign that something is wrong. At another time all the sudden bucking against the restraints for no apparent reason would warrant concern, for example, you didn't start doing anything different.

Now, the problem is we have done bondages so restrictive that there is no movement possible. Now what ? Finger signals ?

I can see what we did wrong, and we were lucky, but I don't like counting on luck anymore.

I have lost someone under the best of conditions. No, she's not dead but her Aunt is and she inherited property in another state. She wants to live there, old place been in the family a long time, all that. I could go there, but I have property here, she was a renter. Also I would never find a job that pays as well there.

I've gotten over that, but if I were to scare someone out of the scene, or at the worst, someone dies on the four poster, I would have a great deal of difficulty living with that.

Just writing this I kinda figured out something, it would be unwise to use nine point restraint, a strict gag, fist mitts and low lighting along with loud music. All this at the same time is asking for trouble.

So any ideas or helpful hints are welcome.
___________________________________________________________

If possible, keep the responses here, but if you would like to go into detail anonymously you can Cmail me and I can post it. Just keep names out of the body of what you want to say. People who have alot of experience, and health care workers might come up with some really good hints that should probably be read by all.

Safe: that's what this thread is about.
Sane: sorry can't do that, best I can do is the gray area. Not insane.
Consentual: always.

T

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 10/31/2006 12:54:44 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

Now what ? Finger signals ?

Exactly - or a finger snap works too.

But what happens when you use an arm binder or leather mittens?

Termyn8or, look if you consider and want to eliminate all risk you'll eliminate all. How much fun can you have with a submissive wrapped in bubble wrap? Ummmm, come to think of it, rolling a bubble wrapped sub around listening to the pops may be fun, at least until all the bubbles have popped.

Seriously, being aware and attentive is all you can do. Although it's never happened to me, I've seen serious distress as a result of a scene. At that point whether the sub had a safe-word or not it wouldn't matter, a cross broke away from it's floor foundation and a Domme, about 4'9" weighing 98 pounds found herself trying to help her 6'2" slave who was lying face down on the floor still attached to the cross. She shouted and help came.

If someone is getting sick behind a gag, you'll know. Panic is an emotion that exhibits itself very plainly. Granted, a blindfold won't let you see it displayed in the eyes, mittens or an arm binder won't let you see or hear a finger snap; but jerking motions irrelevant to what's going on in the scene occur even with the strictest of bondage. However, none of these visual or audible clues should be relied upon exclusively.

As a Dom or Master you have to take your responsibility VERY seriously. The concern that you document here will be what you can rely on to avoid serious issues. It works best when that concern is combined with intimate personal knowledge of your partner. The longer you build up that foundation, the better you will be able to 'read' them. You'll have confidence and they will feel secure.

Have FUN!

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 10/31/2006 2:04:20 PM

MistressTheaZ

Posts: 155
Joined: 7/17/2005
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One thing frequent play partners have working in their favor is knowing the play style and response level of their partner. For example, there is one playmate I have, (My favorite, actually), whom I am pleased to switch with. Given his fondness of restraints, suspension, hoods and gags, some non-verbal and more subtle 'pause' gestures had to be worked out.

If one isn't yet familiar with a new partner, avoiding full hoods which cover the eyes is one way to ensure you can carefully observe the reactions and status of your partner. Discomfort, malaise or even panic shows readily in one's eyes and can be noted and dealt with more quickly, even if it is just to untie and sit the bottom up to check in on them before resuming play.

I found that a head shake when something is amiss worked, as well as tapping with or waving the hand or foot (if there is a limb free enough to do so.) Knowing that one's partner would not be objecting in this manner unless something were wrong, immediate attention (akin to a 'yellow' - stop and check in, reaccess) is given.

Once, I was suspended upside-down and began to feel somewhat lightheaded and entirely too hot. I shook My head back and forth and was immediately taken down so I could rest and regain My equilibrium. Indeed, even when two people know each other quite well, are in fairly good health and fitness, and are not doing anything new or out-of-the-ordinary, sometimes one cannot anticipate another's reactions that particular day.

Kudos for seeking a responsible and thoughtful approach for your play. Play hard - play safe.

Brightest Blessings,

~Thea

< Message edited by MistressTheaZ -- 10/31/2006 2:06:59 PM >

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 10/31/2006 4:05:53 PM

diamonddreamlove

Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
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Some things can not be forseen or avoided. Was in a small dungeon a few months ago having lunch after a play session and before more fun was to occur. A slave that was there started out being sleepy, slurring her language and having a drooping side to her face. Yep it was a stroke. Fortunately present was a nurse, a cpr/first aid instructor and two other capable people. We called for the ambulance and when the first responders arrived at the dungeon it was difficult getting them to pay attention to the vitals we were attempting to pass on. Had to keep snapping fingers and saying the patient is over her to keep them from looking the room over. LOL could tell who was sexually free and who was clueless. One fireman kept asking where the smoke detectors were LOL. Anyway point is we could not have planned for this to happen. Since then the local club has offered CPR/First Aid/ Blood Borne Pathogens classes for us kinkier folks. Was a fun class and ummm well as the instructors sub i was relieved that He brought the dummies instead of me having to be the dummy. Anyway being safe is also being prepared for whatever might happen.

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"Many attempts to communicate are nullified by saying too much." Robert Greenleaf

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 10/31/2006 4:16:54 PM

proudsub

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From: Washington
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quote:

What I wonder is about more serious dangers.

You mentioned many of the reasons i have gags as a limit. You can add joint pain to the list.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 11/1/2006 3:03:59 AM

sadomasokisti

Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
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In my view it is the sub's responsibility to be in as good condition as possible before a session. I love to play rather heavy S&M with my mistress and I don't dare to play unless I think I'm up for it. I try to be well rested and as well nurished and hydraded as I possibly can. If I start to feel lightheaded, or nausea... no matter how little I give emergency signal right away and she removes the gag. Usually it's enaught to get some Gatorade and sugars or enlarge the breathing hole to keep on playing after short rest.

If the sub is not in it's usual form he/she needs to inform the Dom beforehand about that.

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 11/1/2006 5:54:36 AM

MsKatHouston

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From: Houston, TX
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Gags/bondage: Use some type of other signal. A handkerchief that is dropped, a bell, squeaky toy, snaps.

The dominant, when putting the submissive in such a state should be very aware and check in to ensure the sub is ok.

If not gagged and someone gets a cramp, there's nothing wrong with "OMG I have a cramp"

If the sub is not feeling well, they should communicate this to the dominant prior to play.

If something gets in your eye, communicate it to the dom so the dom can allow you to take care of it

Use quick release hooks and have scissors on hand for quick cutting

Have a first aid kit handy

Have a phone handy where you can dial 911

There are a million little "what if's" that can happen when we do what we do. It is not always safe but we do what we can to minimize risk. Both the submissive and the dominant are responsible for this. Even the most responsible, caring and observant dom might not pick up on the fact you have something in your eye or had a bad lunch. Communication should be established either verbally or non verbally within a scene. With a little planning, communication and awareness, many of theses little "what if's" can be avoided pretty easily.

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-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 11/1/2006 11:09:09 AM

Termyn8or

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Thanks for everything so far.

Like I said I have been lucky so far, and I hope if I ever get unlucky I can respond and not have it turn into a tragedy. Also, with the apparent rarity of female switches (at least in my area) I would hate to hurt one, or if I wind up with a newbie to train I wouldn't want her to get scared out of it.

I think a good idea in the beginning is to forget the gag. While it wouldn't do anything for a stroke (that musta sucked, sorry to hear it), it should be safe enough. Plus the gag is only for effect, I can make quite a bit of noise anytime, the house is fairly soundproof.

It seems the jist of what I'm getting is to pay attention, CLOSE attention, which shouldn't be a problem :-). Also certain combinations seem to ask for trouble, for example if a gag is used, forget the fist mitts, things like that. Try to leave at least one line of communication open. Once we get to know each other, then comes the stricter bondage.

If anyone has something to add, I am still listening, and probably always will be. Now does anyone want to come over and try my nine point restraint ? Wrists, the middle of the upper arms, waist, just below the kness, and the ankles. I've only had the chance to do it once. Needless to say, body language is quite difficult. Emergency release is also a bit problematic, as there are four restraints on the arms rather than two. The waist restraint also has to be removed, the way I see it, the main thing is to get the bottom sitting up, able to speak etc., then the rest of the restraints can be removed.

I will have to figure out a way to release it as quickly as possible, right now it's five restraints to be undone, just to allow sitting up. Just thinking about how dangerous some of my/our activities were, well some changes are in order. When we started neither one of us was on the internet. It all started with a simple pair of handcuffs, but both of us had a touch of carpal tunnel or something close so things had to change.

Not that I want to hijack my own thread, but this is Health and safety.... Something like carpal comes and goes, some days are worse than others. Those nylon/velcro restraints are quite strong if the velcro is clean, in fact just as a test I put all my weight (about 200 lbs.) on them up over a door. They held. But there was a side effect. Not from the suspension, but the cuffs themselves.

Well one day my wrists were really bad, so I slept in the cuffs, fairly tight but not attached to anything. I think it actually helped. Dietary changes have abated the condition over the years, but I thought that was worth mentioning.

Keep it coming folks, I really want to keep it safe, mainly because I don't know about sane. I will not be insane, but I like that gray area. It will of course be consentual.

Speaking of consentual, it is, but..... I believe bondage is only bondage when you stop liking it. This is not sadism at all, in fact I do not enjoy inflicting pain at all. Basically after she comes a bunch of times and is exhausted and ready for it to be over, that is exactly NOT when to release her. This would all be discussed aforehand of course, but that last ten minutes when it's pretty much over, that's bondage.

With me, the aftercare starts during the VERY SLOW release, this of course in the absence of a safeword being used. One time, with four point restraint I first released her legs. "Isn't it nice to be able to put your legs together ?", "Yes thank you". With her wrists still restrained to the corners of a queen size bed I took my time.

Right then, no safeword was needed, with her legs free she could just kick me if necessary :-), but she didn't. She had been sweating and the AC was on so I got a blanket and...... well, like I said the aftercare started before the release. A bit later I released one wrist, then even later the other. The cuffs were not locked, but she waited for ME to release her. She's a quick study and adopted a similar strategy when it was my turn on the four poster.

Damn shame, she decided her property and inheritance were more important than me, and I decided that my home, property and kickass job were more important than her. Sometimes I regret that decision, but I can't leave my family and my chosen family here, we have too much business going on. She now has the same problem 2,000 miles away, she was executrix of the will and inherited quite a bit. A couple of businesses and a house, but the house has a stipulation that if she doesn't live there it must be sold. She told me that she asked for the house, she really wanted it. Hmm, I wonder if they could just move it here ... Not going to happen.

Now I am going off an a tangent. So much for that. If you have anything to add, keep it coming. Any good ideas for ways to communicate open the door for stricter bondage :-).

T

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 11/1/2006 11:33:12 AM

nessalovestats

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My sub and I have been together quite awhile, and in the beginning, yes it was a bit tricky. he has old basketball injuries, so he gets leg cramps, very often. When he is gagged, he shakes his head and makes noises when something is wrong, he also wears a bell around his ankle that he can shake to alert me of something that is wrong if for some reason, he cannot shake his head. While he is blindfolded most of the time, and gagged most of the time, and I do have music playing, he can grunt and shake rather vilently, and I know that something is amiss. This comes with knowing your partner, I know the differences between his normal moans and movements, and when there is something wrong. As far as the 9-point restraint problem, if something is really wrong, I also suggest keeping scissors handy, in a dire emergency, it might be the only thing You might be able to do. In not so dire of an emergency, so work swiftly to get the top ones undone, and you should be set.

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 11/1/2006 1:10:52 PM

sadomasokisti

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From: Iceland
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Totally agree with nessalovestats. Always keep scissors handy. Preferably the EMT type that can cut through anything but steel restraints. Never use restraints that you are not ready to cut in an emergency.

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RE: Re: disrespecting red.......(I didn't want to hijac... - 11/1/2006 1:50:28 PM

windchymes

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I really hope beth posts and lets us know how the bubble wrap was!

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