RE: "Everyone has limits."

RE: "Everyone has limits." (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:22:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Healing does not have to come on a shrink's couch, it can come in the form of a loving relationship in which one is valued. I do not know why people do not embrace the healing properties of love and acceptance more readily than we do. What a great post, Julia. I agree with all of it. I went the therapy route, and it only got me so far. I went the rest of the stretch with someone who knows me like no one else could, and who had a vested interest in my positive outcome, and who cares very much for me and my well being. Therapy is wonderful for many, many people. But it is not necessarily the be-all, end-all answer for everyone. Well said, both of you.

Level -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:25:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Morrigel quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline I believe this is known psychological/medical circles as the "Gumby Affect" in male submission - and, if it is a female submissive - it is the "Pokey Affect". And when the dominant is evil, it's the "Mr. Bill and Sluggo" effect? [:D] --M LOL at that.............. and I like your comment on caring for the submissive, the deeper that submission goes...I do believe in individual responsibility as well, but dominants have a lot of responsibility in the matter.

LordODiscipline -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:26:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Morrigel quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline I believe this is known psychological/medical circles as the "Gumby Affect" in male submission - and, if it is a female submissive - it is the "Pokey Affect". And when the dominant is evil, it's the "Mr. Bill and Sluggo" effect? [:D] --M OK - I am rolling here... ~J

mistoferin -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:44:53 AM)
julia, I'd like to answer this as I am one who talks often of therapy. It may be assumed that because of my counseling background that people think I am always referring to a "one on one" situation involving a person with issues sitting down and hashing out those issues with a qualifed, educated and licensed professional....I am not. Although I must say that because of my background, I do indeed believe in the power of such a situation I can also agree with you that it is not a panacea. It does not always work for every individual. The reasons for failure are numerous and complicated and can range from something as simple as a mismatch between therapist and client to something far more complicated as a lack of trust or belief in that method. Therapy does not have to be conducted in an office with another human being. It can be just as, if not sometimes more, beneficial on a walk alone in the woods. In an afternoon skipping stones across a still lake. In a tub full of bubbles. In a multitude of ways. And yes....sometimes in the loving and accepting arms of another. No matter what the thereapeutic environment one chooses the common denominator though in a successful outcome is the "turning inside out of one's self", the examining...and the understanding we come to as a result. Yes, loving relationships can be healing. But the responsibility for that healing should not be placed upon or assumed to be the burden of another. I believe that only by taking that responsibility and owning it for ourselves can we guarantee the most fulfilling possible outcome. This lifestyle does not have the market cornered on unsavory characters who are looking to take full advantage of the frailties of another....but it does have a couple of distinctions. Here, many sub/slaves, especially those who are new...are bombarded with the concept that Dominant/Masters are people who will "mold" you, "fix" you and erase all the misdeeds of the past. They are seen as White Knights because that is the image they try very hard to portray. That scenario makes those who tend to be vulnerable and reaching out ripe for the picking. I don't believe that healing and growth within a relationship is a bad thing, actually I believe that it is something that happens in most healthy relationships. But I do believe that seeking out a partner with the intention of them providing that to you is. Hope I made more sense.

LadyHugs -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:48:59 AM)
Dear BitaTruble, Ladies and Gentlemen; First off, thank you for a really good thread and another slant to 'no limits-limits' topic. To my own personal experiences, my mother is the one who was my nemesis at my family enviorment, as well as my emotional and physical abuser. It also carries over into childhood, going to school where bullies also created abuse. It is true, children can be so cruel to others. Only when gone from the authority and control of parents over children, which shape much of our perspectives in life--our life's yardstick we measure things by, exploring and learning is really pressing beyond self imposed boundaries and finding new limits. Sometimes, it needs to be said--that there are no limits yet, as we haven't found that 'limit' yet. There are so many types of limits. Physical, to which is more body connected and retards any outlandish limits the mental, emotional and or spiritual limits a person may have. That said, it really is a patch quilt, as far as limits go. It can really never be a blanket to cover all limits in the relationship of an individual and or a group of people. I think the realm of the best chance for no limits, are our individual minds. Its freer than any place, a source of logic, memories, perceptions, judgment, problem solving, questions and answers, storing every scrap of personal information to draw from. I think the spirit is also a very good second for no limits but, at times the spirit can be lifted as well as dumped to the bottom, often termed as a broken spirit, to which at this point some give up, some others stay there on the bottom and then crawl back up to the sky, or lifted and flying space of high spirits and a state of bliss. And, all those up and downs the spirit has each day of life. In my mind's eye, I feel that 'emotions' is what regulates the limits and bondaries. Boundaries I do feel is different from limits. Sticking to the track of 'limits.' Each person's limit(s) will be different but, in saying no limits, in my mind's eye it means that limits haven't been found yet, so the ceiling has not yet been seen or found. Our personal limits or what we tolerate or not (in a general sense), is created by the personal experience and how it effected and or affected our emotional, mental and spiritual realm and physical perhaps. Our 'baggage' if you will, limits us. There is no replacement for theropy, that may be true. However, theropist are not Gods/Goddesses. They work with the responses the client gives and then they try different words to trip and trigger the right words to mentally and emotionally work inside your brain. In summary, to help you talk to yourself and let you get the tools to dig yourself out of a rut, become your own white knight. They don't change things. They just show you how to look at things differently. As far as pain relates to some, it comes to be a comfort and a safe feeling, often because that has been the only thing known. Sometimes love was manifested with pain, abusive in most eyes but, from an individual experience, it may/can be 'the only love ever known.' How many times, as kids--we heard a parent say; its because we love you...then or during a beating? As children, we loose our voice early, especially from my generation. We dare not say 'no' no matter how much our emotions, soul, mind and body is screaming "NO!" We (in general) may forgive but--we don't forget. When we don't forget, we have that as our yard stick, often limiting what we'll never have done to us (in general terms) again. In my mind's eye, a good many have had no abuse in their childhood that they know of. Some good many have. When pain is proffered though, for the majority of M/s, D/s and or S&M administrations, it is not coming from a vindictive mindset. There becomes a splintering effect where pain of past abuse and pain from a dominant, as to just pull the affects of love and pain together, to which satisfies the hunger of that manifestation of love. In this community, it is better understood, due to the communication and the knowledge gained as to how pain registers. It is a catharsis, a healing, a resetting of the mind, spirit and emotions. Knowing it comes from a knowing and caring individual pain can be administered and love be felt. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:57:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble The behavior eventually landed me in a loony bin for for almost a month. I believe you've proven my point, that the only people without limits are those who are not mentally healthy. Just as an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, you are always have that "no limits" mental health issue. But like the alcoholic in recovery and with the aid of a twelve step program and support of their family and friends is able to remain sober (but no less an alcoholic), your Master is able to manage your behavior by imposing limits upon you (while doing nothing to eliminate the underlying mental health problem). I'm sure you're grateful (and we're all grateful for you) that you've found a relationship in which your problem can be managed, and hope not to step on any toes by suggesting that unless your Master is a mental health professional, you could probably benefit from therapy that could actually treat the issues (whether than simply manage the symptoms). John

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:03:38 AM)
quote: mistoferin: Yes, loving relationships can be healing. But the responsibility for that healing should not be placed upon or assumed to be the burden of another. I believe that only by taking that responsibility and owning it for ourselves can we guarantee the most fulfilling possible outcome. I believe that we set up psychodramas in order to heal ourselves, whatever shape they may come. The onus is always on us to heal ourselves and create our own reality. When we truly want peace we will find it. Sometimes peace can come from unexpected places, like a D/s relatiooship, but we must first create the groundwork for this to happen. quote: This lifestyle does not have the market cornered on unsavory characters who are looking to take full advantage of the frailties of another....but it does have a couple of distinctions. Here, many sub/slaves, especially those who are new...are bombarded with the concept that Dominant/Masters are people who will "mold" you, "fix" you and erase all the misdeeds of the past. They are seen as White Knights because that is the image they try very hard to portray. That scenario makes those who tend to be vulnerable and reaching out ripe for the picking. Yes there are predators everywhere, and there is prey everywhere. People are warned all the time here that this is the case, but again I believe we set up our own psychodramas to heal ourselves. Life is risky, and hopefully people do not have their heads in the clouds so far they cannot comprehend that this is the case when they read Celeste's post. I have to give credit to Celeste, she did not glamorize her situation or make it seem like something to aspire to like so many that talk about being a "no limits" slave... her life is what it is. People are ultimately responsible for themselves and their healing, even those looking for a white knight to save them. They would be looking for the quick fix with or without D/s, very few find a quick fix anywhere. Those who read about the healing qualities of loving D/s relationships and try to emmulate that are ultimately responsible for the work it really takes. quote: I don't believe that healing and growth within a relationship is a bad thing, actually I believe that it is something that happens in most healthy relationships. But I do believe that seeking out a partner with the intention of them providing that to you is. Hope I made more sense. Personally speaking I have never had growth without interacting with others. They are not responsible for my growth, I am, but it was the opportunity to learn about myself through others and my interactions with them that spurred the growth on. We are not islands unto ourselves, we are social creatures that need other human beings to feel happy and fulfilled, whether it be friends, our unmentionables, our extended family, or a lover. We learn from each other... but ultimately we are responsible for ourselves. I do not think you are saying anything different from what I have, just a different vantage point is all. I do think therapy can work, my teen unmentionable is in therapy for anxiety to learn strategies to deal with it through cognitive behavioral therapy... I am not anti-therapy, but it often isn't what is needed in the clinical sense. Like I said, my genetic makeup is comprised of anxious people...lol... my entire family. edited for typos

USmasslave -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:21:35 AM)
Someone wrote, "I believe you've proven my point, that the only people without limits are those who are not mentally healthy." Gosh that is really jumping out there and being bold in judgments . Basing your debate on a floating foundation I think . I do not know and neather do you !!! and thats the real fact sell the leather couch !! ha

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:34:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: USmasslave Someone wrote, "I believe you've proven my point, that the only people without limits are those who are not mentally healthy." Gosh that is really jumping out there and being bold in judgments . Basing your debate on a floating foundation I think . I do not know and neather do you !!! and thats the real fact sell the leather couch !! ha Actually, you're right... it does not "prove" my point, it supports my contention. It was clearly an overstatement on my part. As for "jumping out there and making bold judgments", I don't value timidity, particularly in an intellectual discussion. Too many people are afraid to speak their mind, for fear of what others may think of them, or fear of being "wrong". Don't count me amongst them. John P.S. - The Bob Timberlake leather couch stays... it looks great and compliments the rest of the Timberlake leather and cherry in the family room.

happypervert -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:36:35 AM)
[fast reply] Thanks for telling your story, Celeste. I found it thought provoking when you discussed having no limits in the other thread because it seemed unusual to me to have that trait inherent in someone's psychological wiring. Now, to an amateur psychologist like me, it looks more likely that it comes from a cruel childhood -- I usually hear stories like that on tv shows about psycho killers. Perhaps we could say they have no limits in their treatment of others while you lack limits in how you are treated. Anyway, not everyone having a childhood like yours ends up without limits or as a deranged psychopath. Although it is clear that the phrase "Everyone has limits" is technically incorrect because you are the exception to the rule, I think it is also clear that you are one of the few exceptions who actually has no limits among all the folks who make that claim; not all have the same experiences that you do or adapted to it as you did. So I think the phrase "everyone has limits" is useful to debunk the claims of the no limits slaves who actually do have them, while acknowledging that it is unfortunate that an unusual case such as yours may get lumped in with them by folks who aren't aware of the context. Even if we get some no limits slaves like you who were born that way and not made, I suspect their numbers will still be dwarfed by those who simply claim no limits because it sounds cool.

spankmepink11 -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:49:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble You know, Moms really do beat their kids with wire hangers. That's not just something from a movie. Moms use metal rods and bats and belts and their fists and sometimes they really do cut all your hair off .. and they scream at you over and over.. "Don't you dare say no to me. Don't you dare say no." You get to a point where you actually can't say no anymore. Not won't, not don't.. can't. Get it? Not everyone who jumps into the leather vats does so from a healthy place. If we're lucky, we can get fairly healthy again, but sometimes there are things you can't ever get back .. like the word no or having someone move their arm suddenly and you not flinch or having a panic attack over a hairbrush or a pair of scissors. (Ever go ape shit in a hair saloon? ::laughs::) Just casualities of war though, you know? Celeste, this paragraph mirrors such a large portion of my childhood, that reading it had an actual physical effect on me. What i find very interesting is how the effects manifests themselves in so many different ways. I too have a very hard time saying no, and while my limits may be few...i do have them. It almost seems like our experiences sent us in directions that were polar opposites. Yours took a turn towards the self destructive (disregarding your physical/mental safety because of your inability to refuse) , while mine sent me into hyper self preservation mode. (never completely trusting anyone) It seems that you have found a level of peace and happiness and i wish with all my heart that you allow it to overshadow the past.

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:49:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: USmasslave Someone wrote, "I believe you've proven my point, that the only people without limits are those who are not mentally healthy." Gosh that is really jumping out there and being bold in judgments . Basing your debate on a floating foundation I think . I do not know and neather do you !!! and thats the real fact sell the leather couch !! ha Actually, you're right... it does not "prove" my point, it supports my contention. It was clearly an overstatement on my part. As for "jumping out there and making bold judgments", I don't value timidity, particularly in an intellectual discussion. Too many people are afraid to speak their mind, for fear of what others may think of them, or fear of being "wrong". Don't count me amongst them. John P.S. - The Bob Timberlake leather couch stays... it looks great and compliments the rest of the Timberlake leather and cherry in the family room. Funny, I have always found Celeste's posts to be among the most humble, well considered, and balanced on this page. I have never seen her flame anyone even when flamed. I would think that by her posts she is like 1000 times less neurotic than others here, myself included[:D] So I do not think it supports your contention at all that Celeste remains hurt from her childhood and has scars from it... most of us have scars, are neurotic, have personality disorders, or some form of depression or psychosis... your contention also somehow makes you seem as though you are more mentally healthy than the person you are analyzing... and none of us are qualified to make that judgment on an internet message board... I find few posters to be as rational and sane as Celeste. This post just makes me think this even moreso, because crazy people do not know they are crazy.

adaddysgirl -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:52:08 AM)
Celeste, i am glad you pointed out this portion of my post to begin this all with....because it actually is the gist of what i was trying to say. i guess i am really just tired of people coming on here and so flippantly stating that they have no limits and they always blindly obey when they really have no conception of the depth of what they are saying. What prop was talking about was really the ultimate in no limits and blind obedience. She had no qualifiers. The fact that she would accept death at her Master's command is what really made me realize there are those that truly have no limits. But to be realistic, this is not what most on here mean when they so proudly come out and announce they have no limits. i need to borrow something from Gem: "however a no-limits slave would obey and follow thru with the order until death occured stopping them, where as somebody with limits would not even attempt the order because they would not cross their limits of no death or possible harm." Exactly! Most people would draw the line to blind obedience when/if it came to the point of bodily injury or death....that is their limit....and that was exactly my point. One limit means you are not 'no limits'....as much as people want to believe it does. There was just a post on someone jumping off a roof because their Master told them to. Now, if that same couple were up in the Grand Canyon and he told her to jump, would she have, with no question whatsoever? i'm going to say, i doubt it. Why? Because for most of us, the first flash that death would be imminent, would stop us dead in our tracks....the hell with what Master commanded! Prop said she had no self-preservation instincts. i believe her. And from what i can tell from what you are saying here, death may not be the worst that you have had to endure in life. Sometimes death even becomes more welcoming than life (look at suicide victims). But you have to admit, that this is not the norm. That most people, if given the choice, would choose life over death....even if that choice meant not blindly obeying Master. i also now understand the concept of 'no limits of my own'. Yes, that can be a very dangerous place to be and again, that is why it should not be taken so lightly by those who profess it. People always talk about others living the fantasy of D/s. But to me, it is the ones that come out here and make such claims when they don't hold water, that are the ones living the fantasy. And people will ridicule me because i question such claims....but i will continue to do so. People think they can just come out and make these bogus claims because they read them in a book or something.....well, they are misrepresenting themselves. And i am going to continue to ask "Would you risk death to blindly obey?" And please don't tell me "my Master would never command that".....or "Yes, because i trust he will be doing it for a good reason". Neither of those are the point. Both in the case of prop and yourself, you....your self....the slave herself....has no limits....even death. It really isn't a matter of he must have had a good reason....it is, just because it is. Do i believe you have no limits Celeste? Yes i do. Do i believe you would jump off the Grand Canyon without hesitation at your Master's command. Yes i do.....just as i believe prop would. Your childhood is a sad one....one that no child should ever have to endure. And that has left its scars. Prop may have no similar background....i don't know....but that really doesn't matter. The end result is still the same. And others may aspire to this level of no limits but quite honestly, the self-preservation instinct is a strong one to overcome....particularly in the face of death.....and unless death is really a consequence one is willing to accept. Anything short of that is a fantasy.....and a mockery. So perhaps people will think twice about making their self proclamations....without really having any idea of the depth that no limits could really involve....and what others...who really do live that way.... mean when they say it. In closing, i do wish you well Celeste. It sounds like you have found a partner who is very understanding of your situation. What more could we hope for? DG

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:09:50 AM)
You obviously have a preconcieved notion that all mental problems manifest themselves in stereotypical ways, leaving the individual unable to function in any portion of their life. You're equating mental health issues with the need for institutionalization, and that's not accurate. The vast majority of people with mental health issues function quite well in most ways, and you might not have a clue that they suffer from such issues. In this case, Celeste has gone into great detail about the damage inflicted upon her, and some of the symptoms (such as having no limits). But she functions exceptionally well in most every aspect of her life. The two on not mutually exclusive. And I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I'm portraying myself as more mentally healthy than anyone else. I'm a raving lunatic. John

HollyS -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:20:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: mistoferin: Yes, loving relationships can be healing. But the responsibility for that healing should not be placed upon or assumed to be the burden of another. I believe that only by taking that responsibility and owning it for ourselves can we guarantee the most fulfilling possible outcome. I believe that we set up psychodramas in order to heal ourselves, whatever shape they may come. This is one way to look at things. Personally I believe that life continues to present us with the same lesson over and over again until we learn it. The process may or may not be a healing one, but it often is painful and occasionally brings more chaos and distress to our lives while we're trying to figure things out (like going through a series of toxic relationships before realizing the pattern and finally connecting with someone positive). Perhaps we're saying the same thing, but I understand Erin's point regarding the tendency of some "without limits" looking for others -- in the form of a Dominant/Master -- to take ultimate responsibility for the safety of the sub/slave. It's an unfair burden to place on the Top because anything that goes wrong, causes injury, or has a bad outcome becomes the complete responsibility of the Top. "I couldn't say no, it's his job to look out for me." This is why I would question anyone who says in complete honesty "I have no limits" and "This has no negative impact on my life." It's a serious question worth asking. I believe in the capacity for all human beings to change. It takes motivation, strength and the support of loved ones, but if one can recognize the unhealthiness of a particular issue, one can work on getting better. You said "When we truly want peace we will find it." Would you say that a person who cannot set personal boundries is at peace with themselves? I asked before, "What would happen if you (a sub/slave who claims no limits) were to say no to a command?" and haven't seen a response from anyone. Maybe the question is too hard, maybe it's too upsetting to even think about. If those things are true, that should say something. ~Holly

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:21:17 AM)
Only Celeste can answer this, but from her post I tended to get the idea that she is relatively happy in her life. I am a fan of her posts, so I tend to pay rather close attention to them because she has taught me a lot by reading her. I have scars from childhood that make me cry too, and I was diagnosed with PTSD and have phobias due to childhood trauma that is not abuse related. I am relatively happy and stable and my anxiety is under control. The first thing they want to know in therapy is if your problems interfere with your happiness, contentment, and ability to function... if you are happy, content, and functional they usually send you on your way... and we are all raving lunatics BTW

LadyHugs -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:26:35 AM)
Dear adaddysgirl, Ladies and Gentlemen; Although a bit off track, I wanted to make an example of managed limits. Although people do have limits, not all are enslaved by them. I look at our soldiers, police officers, fire fighters or first responders and those who rush in to save people. Some say fire fighters are crazy to rush into a burning building, ready to collapse. At their own peril, at the risk of death or serious injuries, like seen in California's five dead firefighters battling fire way beyond human control. I say, they do have their limits but, they manage their fight/flight and to go into what normal people flea. The same with police officers. Robberies with guns, domestic fights where they're called and might be turned on by the both fighting individuals and their 'managed' control of limits and self preservation. The same with soldiers. Sure, they want to live. They know the risks, the possibilities, they'll do all they can to live. Yet, in a second, may manage their limits on self preservation, jump onto a landmine, a bomb--putting themselves into a real death knowingly. Not everybody can know if they can be 'no limits' unless they are at 'the moment' faced. It is all individual and its all at 'the moment'. We look at 9-11, where others demonstrated management/control, putting people with limits into a no limit scenerio. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:27:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Only Celeste can answer this, but from her post I tended to get the idea that she is relatively happy in her life. I am a fan of her posts, so I tend to pay rather close attention to them because she has taught me a lot by reading her. I have scars from childhood that make me cry too, and I was diagnosed with PTSD and have phobias due to childhood trauma that is not abuse related. I am relatively happy and stable and my anxiety is under control. The first thing they want to know in therapy is if your problems interfere with your happiness, contentment, and ability to function... if you are happy, content, and functional they usually send you on your way... and we are all raving lunatics BTW I made no comment on Celeste's happiness. And I'm comforted in the fact that my lunacy has plenty of company. :) John

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:30:25 AM)
I made the comment about her happiness, and about what therapist usually do when deciding whether or not someone needs therapy... perhaps I was not clear enough.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:31:49 AM)
quote: I believe you've proven my point, that the only people without limits are those who are not mentally healthy. Wrong, because your focus is wrong. You are contrasting apples with the consequence of oranges. "No limits" doesn't exist in the realm of physical sensations and you don't need the 'acid text' of using a chain saw as a play toy. The 'no limits' that exists in our 'no limits' relationship is that there is 'no limit' of our trust in each other. That includes the trust that beth has given me over what she will experience physically. If you seek no limits in the physical you'll never achieve it. Seeking it in trust however is the cornerstone of good and mentally HEALTHY relationship.

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