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BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/5/2005 4:18:54 AM

ProtagonistLily

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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Hi All,

I thought I would start this thread separate from the 'possible predator' thread, because lots of times we talk about saftey protocols, like Safe Calls, but I think we take it for granted that some of our newer folk know what we are talking about.

Here are a few links that discuss general safety protocols, including a primer for safe calls.

Uncommon Ground Saftey Guide
BDSM Safety
House of DeSade Saftey Information

I hope this is helpful,

Lily

< Message edited by ProtagonistLily -- 2/5/2005 4:23:27 AM >

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/5/2005 7:12:56 AM

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Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
I hope this is helpful

I found it to be helpful. I especially liked the Safe Call Form. It is a helpful reminder to get all the information down, including the 'help' and the 'alright' words so that no confusion occurs.

Thanks for taking the time to provide this information!

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/5/2005 8:14:18 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I found it to be helpful. I especially liked the Safe Call Form. It is a helpful reminder to get all the information down, including the 'help' and the 'alright' words so that no confusion occurs.

Thanks for taking the time to provide this information!

You bet. I think so many times we talk about Safe Calls/Practices and forget that some folks may not even know what we are talking about. Too, it was good for me to go back and read over, as I've clearly been a little relaxed in my information gathering for safe calls (which yes, I still set up).

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/6/2005 1:32:54 AM

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Joined: 6/29/2004
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Thank you- i'm getting ready to meet someone next weekend, i found that very much helpful. i find it wonderful that you take the time to look out for us newer to things. i knew a lot of that, but learned some too. Always better to be on the safe side. Thank you again.

~tabbycat

Edited to say--- Although helpful its making this new sub a little scared to venture out there. i can see myself doing the safe calls and some of the things--- but somethings seem so out of line for me to ask. i'll do my best.

< Message edited by tabbycat -- 2/6/2005 1:44:51 AM >

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/6/2005 6:49:12 AM

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Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
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quote:

Thank you- i'm getting ready to meet someone next weekend,

Hope it goes well for you. You may also want to read this thread before you meet:

first meeting guidelines

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to tabbycat)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/6/2005 6:56:32 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Thank you- i'm getting ready to meet someone next weekend, i found that very much helpful. i find it wonderful that you take the time to look out for us newer to things. i knew a lot of that, but learned some too. Always better to be on the safe side. Thank you again.

~tabbycat

Edited to say--- Although helpful its making this new sub a little scared to venture out there. i can see myself doing the safe calls and some of the things--- but somethings seem so out of line for me to ask. i'll do my best.

tabbycat,

There was one particular safe call sheet that I thought was a little accessive. However, lemme tell you a little story about what happened to me when I didn't make a safe call.

Early on in my BDSM career, I'd made a couple of friends from the internet as well as many in the local scene. One woman in particular I'd met on the internet had been very nice to me. She and I had been internet friends and had met real life (she lived in my town) and people I knew in the scene knew her. She wasn't part of the scene, but I felt that I had vetted her and that she was alright.

I hadn't been in the scene long when my birthday rolled around. This woman called me late that afternoon and told me she had arranged a 'birthday spanking' for me. In the realm of scene, that's certainly not all the far fetched, but I didn't know the friend she'd arranged this with. I was to meet scene friends that evening at a restaurant for my birthday, and she assured me that this would be quick and that it wouldn't interfere with my evening plans. I hesitated, and really wasn't comfortable not knowing this friend of hers, but being new and still a little coltish, I let her talk me into it.

I didn't think I needed to make a safe call because this woman was my friend, or so I thought.

She talked me into picking me up and said we would meet her friend at a local bar before heading to his office for this spanking. When we got there he was at the bar, and we sat for a while and talked. My gut told me this was a bad idea, but I didn't want to disappoint my friend, so after a drink, we all got in her car and proceeded to his office downtown.

Needless to say, this was the worst 2 hours I've ever spent. I didn't feel 'right' as we drove to the office, and I'm pretty convinced they slipped something into my drink because my head felt very fuzzy. Suffice it to say, these 2 had more planned than a simple birthday spanking, and for any number of reasons I didn't safe word until it was suggested, after a number of things were done to me in which I would never have consented to, I thank this man by giving him a blow job. That act I was able to resist and I think they could see forcing me to do that would be more trouble than it would be worth.

These people dropped me off at my birthday dinner and left me there. Thank God some of my friends were already there, and I was able to tell a couple what happened.

Were these people likely to kill me? Probably not. Were they likely to abduct me and stuff me in a dungeon under their house? Unlikely. But it's not only the stuff that CNN gets a hardon for that we make safe calls. Had I insisted on a safe call, and the address of the place where this 'scene' took place, someone would have been able to know that things had gone very wrong. But not having one got me much more than the scheduled birthday spanking.

Anyone who is new in the scene needs to understand that most of us aren't pyschos looking to hurt other people, or manipulate them into situations for our express benefit. But how do you know? How could I have forseen that this woman who I called my friend's big kink was finding victims?

I couldn't, and that's what safe calls are all about. 99% of the time, you won't need to use it because things have gone badly. You will use the safe call to assure someone who you trust that things are going right, though if they aren't, you have that all important safety net. Things will go as planned, the person or people you are playing with will understand that you are setting up a safe call and be more than happy to comply with the process and give their information over.

Please err on the side of safety. Please.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to tabbycat)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/6/2005 7:11:36 AM

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

My gut told me this was a bad idea

Once again I would like to say to all of the new people (and also the experienced), we get these kinds of feelings for a reason. They are the most precious tool we have in our "toolbox". Red flags are red flags.....don't try to figure out why you have them, don't try to talk yourself out of having them, don't discount or disqualify them in any way. LISTEN TO THEM! I know that there have been times I have not and I have ALWAYS regretted doing so later.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/6/2005 7:21:39 AM

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Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

quote:

She talked me into picking me up

Another red flag--always take your own car so you have a way out.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 9:00:28 AM

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/1/2004
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There was a guy here in Southern California. Hung out in our chatroom and chatted everybody up. He never came to any socials, so no one knew him face to face.

Met the first sub, she agreed to go to his apartment. He raped her, beat her and fisted her with a ring on (no gloves). She ended up in the hospital getting 52 sticthes. She was too embarassed to press charges. She told a few people (myself included) and when we started annoucing that he was questionable, we were derided. He promptly changed his screename and made a point of making friendly with everyone she had told.

The next 5 subs were luckier. They met him in public place. He told them that he had a puppy in the car that he had to check on, did they want to come see? He then pushed them into the car and raped them. They escaped the beating and fistings because they were in a car.

Turns out he was on parole for previous rapes, this was his third strike. Almost everyone in that chat room would have sworn that he was a nice guy. The reality was that he found submissive women to be easy pickings, since a large amount of them will show up ready to play, and they'll wear and do whatever he said.

After much convincing, the initial sub did testify against him, along with 3 others. He's away for life. But, I remind new subs, wear what you're comfortable in, meet on your turf, do not get in his car, do not play or have sex. Ask people in your local scene if they know him, personally. You're putting your life into the hands of a stranger.

Bobbi

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 10:35:27 AM

Posts: 164
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Georgia
Status: offline

When talking about red flags it's always best to trust your gut. If the gut says trouble than it's always safer to listen to it than ignore it. I agree with proudsub in that when you're first meeting someone both people should arrive separately. You may or may not leave separately but it's always better to have your own way out. As well I'm usually against the idea that if you're the one traveling having the person you're meeting make your hotel reservations. It's better in my opinion to make those yourself and keep that location to yourself and arrange to meet somewhere else as it gives you a safe place.

One of the early red flags to me would be if the person you were meeting was reluctant to give you the info you were going to give for a safe call. Personally myself I've never had a problem with someone asking me for whatever info they felt they needed to have first. I've usually not done the same for someone I'm meeting but always offered it to them if they wanted. Whether they ask it of me or not tends to weigh a bit with me as to their experience and how they approach things. When my "kitty" goes and meets someone she and I always check in regularly as well as me already having all the details before she leaves.

(in reply to SinTwister)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 4:19:17 PM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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Personally, I think we should get OSHA on board with this.... the Code of Federal Regulations has not had an overt update in about ten years for safety, and I think we could really contribute to the conversations involved in the Congressional sub-comittees on the subject.

~J

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 4:21:57 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinTwister
There was a guy here in Southern California....<snip> After much convincing, the initial sub did testify against him, along with 3 others. He's away for life....<snip>
Bobbi

Can we get this guy's name?

Thank you

~J

(in reply to SinTwister)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 6:03:44 PM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
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OKay I'm gonna say soemthing that most folks hate to hear.

Safe calls aren't 100% way to make yourself safe.

Granted most of us know this basic truth.

But there IS a danger in feeling that you are a LOT safer than you are because you are relying on that safe call.

Never only make a safe call be a SINGLE call. Because as soon as you hang up that person thinks you are okay and a LOT of shit can change as soon as you change up that phone.

So have multiple calls, spaced out.

And remember - a LOT can happen in between safe calls.

If the person has lied to you - they could easily hurt ya or kill ya and be out of there in between safe calls and you have no real info to get the person with ... outside of say - their decription, or if you are lucky, maybe prints, or a license plate - if they haven't thought to cover their butt on that first anyway.

As soon as you make a safe call there is a period of time that quite a bit can happen in.

The ONLY time a safe call MAKES you safe at all, is while you are ON the phone. And even then you aren't *really* safe, just someone would know quickly to be worried and get the police moving if something happened while you are on the phone. And have a little code. Something you HAVE to say in order for the person you are calling to know you feel at least that you are okay. Something you would omit if say the person is forcing you to say you are okay when you aren't. Maybe like a fake pet ... "So how is Rover doing? He okay after seeing the vet?" ... that you would NOT say if you were calling under diress.

Just don't put all your faith into that safe call. It's a good tool to have, but do NOT wholly depend on it to make you safe. It only takes minutes or seconds to kill, rape, or beat the living fuck out of you. And I know a few assholes that waited to time their attack AFTER a safe call was made.

One lady only had a single safe call. One had several.

Some dangerous folks have been online and in the real life scene for YEARS. Remember the slavemaster dude? Stuffed a bunch of women into barrels? Well Ray and I knew him on prodigy years back. He fully knew what safe calls were. He had been active in his local scene as I recall t some extent at least back then. And I am positive he allowed some of his victims to make their safe calls before he killed them. Probably why he felt so safe in allowing a safe call for the one that got away - he was most likely very confident about allowing that due to getting away with his crap for years, and it prolly excited him to allow them to think they were safe after placing their call, I'd imagine.

So not meaning to scare unneccesarily here - just remember - safe calls do not equate automatically that you are safe - they are just another tool to help. And that is ALL they are. Depend on your gut and yourself far more than that safe call.

Just my 2 cents.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 7:32:56 PM

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I honestly don't remember the guy's name. This 5 years ago (this month) now. Initially, he was trying to convince everyone that he was an LA Dodger. The story was in the LA Times, I'm sure it's still in their archive. We had the cops coming to our socials and everything.

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 7:38:28 PM

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From: Sacramento, California
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If you are talking about the slavemaster guy - I don't recall his real name offhand, and I have his old prodigy name on the tip of my tongue. He hung mostly on the pseudo side. Ray can't think of his screenname from prod either.

Watch it will come to me at 4 am. LOL.

But yeah he made up a LOT of various pasts, histories, etc.

As I recall he was one of the older crowd on prod, sort of the middle-timers as I think of them, and fairly vocal too.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to SinTwister)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 7:52:04 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

The ONLY time a safe call MAKES you safe at all, is while you are ON the phone. And even then you aren't *really* safe, just someone would know quickly to be worried and get the police moving if something happened while you are on the phone. And have a little code. Something you HAVE to say in order for the person you are calling to know you feel at least that you are okay. Something you would omit if say the person is forcing you to say you are okay when you aren't. Maybe like a fake pet ... "So how is Rover doing? He okay after seeing the vet?" ... that you would NOT say if you were calling under diress.

I agree with Shade on this. However, what I fear is new people reading this and thinking, "Well, if I'm not really safe with a safe call, then why bother?"

Bother. Just do it. Listen to your Aunt Lily and get the information. Most people aren't going to stuff you in an oil drum, or do other bad things to you. Safe Calls are common practice and have been for years.

The other thing setting up a safe call does, is gives you an idea BEFORE the meet whether the person is on the up and up. If someone you've met in a BDSM related chat or site balks at a safe call, that should serve as a serious warning. If you ask someone who wants to meet you for their information and they say something like "I'm a Dom, I decide what information you deserve or not," (or something equally rediculous) this is the time to walk away. This is not a person who's interested in SSC practices that are safety mainstays of this lifestyle.

I'm meeting someone tomorrow, in a public place of my choosing, driving my own car, and I have someone who's expecting me to check in with them. I have a time deadline in which I have to meet in order for my largely pain in the ass but adoring friend not to call the cops. I'm not a newbie, and I'm willing to set up a safe call.

Bother.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/8/2005 8:16:29 PM

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From: Sacramento, California
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Just to clarify (not to Lily cuz methinks she knows, just clarifying in general) - I'm NOT saying *don't* set up a safe call - what I *am* saying is don't allow the safe call to make you feel *so* safe that you drop your guard or let common sense ride out the window.

In other words, set the safe calls up.

But also follow that up with being alert, and being aware, and following your gut.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/9/2005 6:28:29 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva

If you are talking about the slavemaster guy - I don't recall his real name offhand, and I have his old prodigy name on the tip of my tongue. He hung mostly on the pseudo side. Ray can't think of his screenname from prod either.

Watch it will come to me at 4 am. LOL.

But yeah he made up a LOT of various pasts, histories, etc.

As I recall he was one of the older crowd on prod, sort of the middle-timers as I think of them, and fairly vocal too.

~ShadeDiva

No - that "gentleman" was in Missouri and the surrounding states.

~J

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/9/2005 6:51:48 PM

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One thing I would like to add, especially with so many people using the internet(s) to find play partners, is to ensure that your safety net includes people who know you, the real you...NOT just the internet you.

I recall an online submissive talking about a future meeting with some other online dominant. Her safecall was an online friend, who knew only her first name and lived out of state. I lost it...a bit...and of course, was chastized for being judgemental...ah well.

One thing I do when meeting a submissive for the first time is to provide her with a copy of my drivers licence, or at least the pertinent information to include my phone number. I inform her, before we meet, to give that information to a close friend and to have her safecalls in place.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: BDSM Safety Proceedures - 2/10/2005 5:52:59 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

One thing I do desire to comment on is the fact that about 99% of the rapes, murders, incests, and other assorted and sundry offenses that are reported over the internet by individuals in chat rooms and on boards such as this are the imagination of the bored and the 'drama queen' mentalities.

Yes - it is true - there are people out there that do such things - some of them who would be on line - and some of them who would portend to an association with BDSM.

That being stated - I believe that the regular tidal surge of panic that permeates on line interactions from time to time is promulgated by people who do not have a life, desire to be seen as 'knowledgeable', desire to panic people into believing they are "safe and sane" AND the only hope the person being spoken to has an opportunity to have protect them.

I have recently had the opportunity to see a few months worth of e-mails (from this site) to a young lady who joined some time before this - she kept them as a log of the interactions with people interested in her and to amuse herself.

The quantity of people utilizing that vague fear of the unknown "predator", of "potential bodily harm" and (then) offering themselves or their dominants as that "ultimate and absolute bastion of safety" is absolutely stunning.

Some went so far (after being rebuffed) to state that the girl would certainly be murdered (hurt, damaged, place herself in serious danger) for refusing the proffered assistance and continuing hre persuit of a dominant without being "protected".

I have to say - I think these people utilizing this technique are as irresponsible and responsible for spreading the thought that we are all "dangerous" as any reporter or politician who decided to stump the vote by using us as a "platform" to wipe his feet upon.

~J

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 2/10/2005 5:58:58 PM >

(in reply to MrThorns)

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