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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/25/2006 3:18:38 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow
If a man is a crossdresser, I'd let him dress as a reward, not an everyday occurance.
I want guys who look and act like guys.
LS

This I can definitely agree with, but my impression is that permitting him to crossdress only once or twice/month would be a major let down for someone who needed it. The reason I stay away from crossdressing fetishists is largely because I feel we are completely incompatible in that what makes them hot, makes me cold.

quote:

THAT is how they see women???? And anything feminine is humiliation to them? I think they should approach a Male DOM in this attire if they REALLY want humliation

It's been explained to me that they do it out of respect for women, not because being a woman is humiliating... I suppose the way most of them do it is humiliating in that they look awkward, but I suppose divorcing crossdressing fetish as a form of humiliation would be better.

I would love to know how most doms copewith/accept crossdressing males or sissies.

quote:

I started out as an adult baby and it was absolutely embarrasing, for me to say I needed changed. It was embarrasing and I tried to get him to come out of the room with our other ab friend to talk privatley and he wouldn't get the hint so fnally I was forced to come into the room and say I am wet, I need changed.

Hya Kitty, I would definitely agree that was humiliating, but did you enjoy it?

Thanks LTRsubNW for that perspective... Some days I can wrap my mind around it, but most days, it seems like it would be too much work to maintain over time since it (crossdressing man, and in this case cuckoldry) is disconcerting for me. M

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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/25/2006 5:36:05 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

THAT is how they see women???? And anything feminine is humiliation to them? I think they should approach a Male DOM in this attire if they REALLY want humliation
It's been explained to me that they do it out of respect for women, not because being a woman is humiliating... I suppose the way most of them do it is humiliating in that they look awkward, but I suppose divorcing crossdressing fetish as a form of humiliation would be better.

Yes, I undertstand the concept, but I still find it insulting. :/

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Post #: 62

RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 12:00:25 PM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I have a Dilemma...
I like men... Love men... Prefer my men dressed well or casual, but always as men.
I like it when a man presents himself that way to me, but I get a huge rise out of humiliating a man who's not big on Feminization by making him wear lingerie/panties, etc...
I'm turned off when subs email me and they are in full "ridiculous looking (frilly)" female gear or have a strong feminization fetish, because to me he looks like a woman and that is not sexually exciting to me, plus is it really humiliation if he loves it?

Is this contradictory? Am I strange (yes, I know I am) in wanting things this way? Is it unreasonable that I like it kind of is forced this way... M

This is not contradictory, it is humilation when they do NOT seek it.
This fits right in with the bisexual men asking to be "forced bi".
If you ask for it in advance, am I making you do anything?
LOL

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Post #: 63

RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 12:57:57 PM

MissBabydoll

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Joined: 8/9/2005
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I enjoy sissies and t-gurls as submissives for more reasons than one, I think. To begin with, I've always been attracted to androgynous men, and My first b/f was a crossdresser as well as submissive, which probably imprinted me. I've found that het/bi fem males (not necessarily crossdressed, but it seems to help) more often than not make really good lovers and subs--sensitive, eager to please, emotionally available, sensual. I know other women who share my tastes, and most of them are, like me, bisexual and somewhat androgynous ourselves--even if, like me, they present as fem.

As to the hyperfemininity ("frilliness") that many sissies are so into, yes, they are a sort of caricature of femininity in one way. But it seems to Me that they adore the Feminine so much that they need to assume it. They simultaneously worship Women as powerful *and* want to be as feminine as they can--so the femininity they take on is its most submissive form. Signifiers of Female Erotic Power (as Elise Sutton calls it) such as high heels or corsets are inverted in their meaning when worn by males, becoming instead signifiers of submission to that Power. I can be turned on by hyperfeminine sissy males--I have a couple of really gorgeous ones, actually--without needing them to be totally passable as female. To me, they just look hot as what they are. The older, less passable ones I am not so turned on by as a rule, but I am not repelled by them either, because I'm not judging them as wannabe women but as what they are, fem males.

There's a deeper question here, which is whether humiliation in *any* form is really humiliation if the sub wants it. I think it is, because the emotional pain is part of breaking down the false egoic self and as such has its own difficult pleasure. The path to this fulfillment is through eroticized shame, usually developed as a defense mechanism in preadolescence or adolescence. The trick is to push on this defense until it breaks. If a male is humiliated by dressing but also aroused by it, this simply means he has eroticized shame around being unable to be insufficiently masculine by trying to become feminine instead. Given what masculinity has done to the world over the last three millennia of patriarchy, I'll take a fem male any day, thanks! And I'll help and support him on his path.

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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 2:53:56 PM

pixelslave

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Joined: 8/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

sometimes it's difficult to gauge how much someone is into/not into something; often I'll get emails from people with interest lists which include things I'm not at all interested in, and I'll tell them we aren't compatible based on those things (I'm not interested in having an unhappy servant because he never or very rarely gets what he wants), and often they come back with "I'm open to those things but don't need them." What to think in those instances?? M

I wouldn't look at a profile as something which requires an exact match of interests. I have something of a list of "must haves", a list of "would be nice to haves", followed by a list of "neutrals"; the latter being activities where it doesn't matter either way. To me it would be silly to pass up an opportunity to be with a woman who would otherwise be a terrific match for me just because she isn't into something of only minor importance to me. In my view, its the overall big picture that counts.

- pixel

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Post #: 65

RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 6:33:54 PM

undergroundsea

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From: Austin, TX
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I think an interest in feminization is driven by subjective combinations of different motivations: humiliation, admiration for the female image and attire, psychological identification with the opposite sex, or a means to escape masculinity and its traditional role. Knowing the motivation may be relevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissBabydoll
There's a deeper question here, which is whether humiliation in *any* form is really humiliation if the sub wants it. I think it is, because the emotional pain is part of breaking down the false egoic self and as such has its own difficult pleasure. The path to this fulfillment is through eroticized shame, usually developed as a defense mechanism in preadolescence or adolescence. The trick is to push on this defense until it breaks. If a male is humiliated by dressing but also aroused by it, this simply means he has eroticized shame around being unable to be insufficiently masculine by trying to become feminine instead. Given what masculinity has done to the world over the last three millennia of patriarchy, I'll take a fem male any day, thanks! And I'll help and support him on his path.

I think there are two types of humiliation: D/s humiliation and SM humiliation. I see the former to be an act that is humiliating in a vanilla context (for example, bowing to kiss feet) but does not create any sense of humiliation--it is an otherwise humiliating act done willingly and without any emotional perturbance as an expression of the D/s dynamic. By emotional perturbance I mean a vulnerability--there may be an emotional response in the form of arousal or invocation of sub space through D/s humiliation.

I see SM humiliation to be one that does create an emotional perturbance.

I think humiliation can be the psychological equivalent of physical pain. One might find discomfort in pain during the moment but enjoy it for the reaction it creates in the body, for masochistically perving on the sadism after the event, or as a service. I think each can be said of humiliation.

I think that a sub enjoys an activity does not necessarily diminish the submissive value of the activity. I enjoy BDSM activities I do not because they benefit me personally, but because over time I have been exposed to various expressions of D/s and SM, and some resonated with me more than others. It was not a voluntary choice but a response of my psychology. In each case, I like the activity because it represents D/s or SM. I think what is relevant is whether the dominant can enjoy this expression of D/s or SM, or is there enough of a connection or intimacy with the submissive partner to engage in the activity for the sake of the partner.

I sometimes see reluctance by dominants towards an activity enjoyed by a sub. I think sometimes this reluctance is for good reason. Sometimes it can be overcome by communication, perspective, and compatibility.

My two cents.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 7:56:36 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

sometimes it's difficult to gauge how much someone is into/not into something; often I'll get emails from people with interest lists which include things I'm not at all interested in, and I'll tell them we aren't compatible based on those things (I'm not interested in having an unhappy servant because he never or very rarely gets what he wants), and often they come back with "I'm open to those things but don't need them." What to think in those instances?? M

I wouldn't look at a profile as something which requires an exact match of interests. I have something of a list of "must haves", a list of "would be nice to haves", followed by a list of "neutrals"; the latter being activities where it doesn't matter either way. To me it would be silly to pass up an opportunity to be with a woman who would otherwise be a terrific match for me just because she isn't into something of only minor importance to me. In my view, its the overall big picture that counts.

- pixel

I agree with each of you. It is for this reason I do not fill out checklists, especially binary ones. I agree with Pixel in that I see a profile to suggest a likelihood more than an absolute. In general, I believe in likelihoods more than absolutes.

And I think with the right partner, one might enjoy an activity that otherwise is of no interest.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 8:17:01 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

THAT is how they see women???? And anything feminine is humiliation to them? I think they should approach a Male DOM in this attire if they REALLY want humliation
It's been explained to me that they do it out of respect for women, not because being a woman is humiliating... I suppose the way most of them do it is humiliating in that they look awkward, but I suppose divorcing crossdressing fetish as a form of humiliation would be better.

I agree that for some the motivation to crossdress is due to an admiration for women and may not be driven by a want for humiliation.

I don't think a want to crossdress for humiliation necessarily carries an offensive intent but have never before put to words why I feel so. For those who crossdress as a form of humiliation, I don't think it reflects so much a negative perspective about women but a reflection of what a man dressing as a woman means in society today.

For instance, dressing a man in a silly clown's outfit (or a rubber chicken outfit) in general public may create a sense of embarrassment. Dressing the man in the same outfit at a circus backstage amongst other clowns is unlikely to create such feelings. Similarly, there is little reason to be embarrassed for being nude at nudist colony. I think it is not the outfit as much as how people see the outfit which is relevant. That is, the feelings of humiliation are externally driven and are not internal.

Similarly, dressing a man in woman's clothes in a world where men might be scoffed upon for doing so can create a sense of humiliation for external reasons (how society is likely to perceive him) versus internal ones. Sure, there might be some men with mysogenistic views who crossdress for humiliation for internal reasons as well. I expect more often it is for external reasons.

So I think the objection against humiliation through crossdressing is pertinent more against society in general than the individual. And I think the discussion about why society might consider it odd for a man to dress as a woman is tied partially to reasons that can be offensive to women, and partially to breaking societal expectations without diminishing one gender or another.

As I look back upon how I found some of my interests, it happened as I encountered a situation in a story and the like. I imagine an interest in humiliation from crossdressing for some men arose from a situation (a story or personal experience) where the crossdressing conveyed a D/s or emotional SM dynamic, which created arousal and a want to experience that dynamic in this manner.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 12/26/2006 9:15:10 PM >

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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/26/2006 10:31:43 PM

iwearpanties

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undergroundsea

you have some great thoguths there about humiliation and the ideas of how and what strgers it in some of us submissives

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RE: Question About Humiliation - 12/27/2006 3:00:49 AM

BlkTallFullfig

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Thanks to Feline for reviving the thread, and to all respondents for your thoughts.

Thank you undergroundsea for expanding on how one can simultaneously enjoy/feel humiliated by something... I hope you will understand sea that I get more turned on by causing some discomfort/reluctance though, so that someone who begs it because he needs it (especially the full fem gear) in order to come alive does not serve me well... So it does become a matter of gauging how much of a desire/need it is in each partner.
P.S. MissBabydoll, please stick around as you will attract a great many number of boys on this side; especially those who seek sissification. M

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