"Thats an American holiday Walt....." (Full Version)

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RubberWitch -> "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 1:14:10 AM)

OK, number one point here, this is not a column designed for American Bashing. I may get some in, but that'll be an added bonus, rather than the main point.
I'm English. Notice I did not say British, which is a state that is conferred with just a little red book, but English. I know that the milk goes in after the tea, that even if we do not win a test, we are still the better cricket players, and that we invented the computer, the internet, the engine, concentration camps, Jets, satellites and almost everything else that made the 20th century what it was.
Now, I am fully aware that over Christmas, there will be a lull here, as a majority of the posters go back to their families for a few days, eat a too much, drink far too much, and fart a damn site more tha can be good for the ozone layer. Not just Christians (and demi aetheists and agnostics who don't want to offend their Christian families), who are celebrating the birth of Jesus (Who was English too), but Jews dragging Hanukkah out a few days more, and muslims, Hindus, various other religions who just recognise a good opportunity for parties and presents. Even the Wiccans and mother-earth-worshipping-tree-hugging-druid-hippy-gang will be lighting candles against longnight, drinking mead, and singing folk songs with at least 3 nonny-nos and a foldedo or two

But now, we have 3 days of American Thanksgiving posts. not just here, but across the internet, there are turkeyday messages, pumpkin pie recipes and more smiley emoticons than are healthy. I'm very glad I'm not on Live Journal or Emo-space, because I do not think I could stand the post holiday angst. Is this a dry run for Christmas? 3 days with your family before you spend a week with them next month? like taking Iocane poison to build up your resistance?

A nice healthy dose of cynicism can be found here...
http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyimages/894.gif
And I'll see you back here when the indigestion wears off

J



ScienceBoy -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 6:13:26 AM)

Sorry old bean, but I'm afraid you're technically wrong on the tea - you make the tea in the pot, then add your milk to the cup, pre tea. Lower risk of scalding the milk, resulting in a better liquor and superior tea experience [;)]

This is according to the BSI (pubnlication number 6008) official standard tea preparation method. (You can get a copy for £26.)

Naturally this all falls apart if drinking Earl Grey in any case, as it should never be drunk with milk [8|]

Still makes more sense than thanksgiving.



RubberWitch -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 11:06:03 AM)

Oh dear, we seem to have had a mif in the mess.

MIF only with fine china. otherwise you risk scalding the milk. If you're arguing that the water cools during brewing in the pot, then you are over brewing, and you'll never make it to your second pot old chap. I don't know what passes for good ettiquette out in Bristol, but you'd never find that in the tea room at Fortnums.

J



ScienceBoy -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 1:13:35 PM)

Can't stand tea myself unless I'm on drugs [;)]

But I'd probably just about defer to Fortnum's on the tea issue over the British Standards Institute.



LadyEllen -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 3:38:38 PM)

The reason for milk first apparently, is that this was the original way of making tea with milk, in the earliest days when it was available in England. Its nothing to do with scalding the milk - its to do with preventing what were pretty shoddy in those days English china cups from rupturing with the hot tea.

Personally I dont care. I drink coffee. As for tea, make it anyway you like, whether thats mostly hot milk solution with a tinge of some weak tea waved in its general direction, or good old fashioned stewed so long the spoon will stand up in it tea. Anyone telling you, you're doing it wrong is just a tea fascist after all.

E



RubberWitch -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 3:52:33 PM)

Lady Ellen, it wasn't shoddy workmanship, it was exquisite workmanship. Porcelain so fine you could practically read through it.
Sigh... I miss that century.



Saratov -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 7:59:35 PM)

As to you comments re: christmas, chanuka, yule, kwanza,....

Need I bring up 'Boxing Day'? [:)]



DomKen -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 10:40:22 PM)

Wait a minute, the English invented stuff? Isn't that why they invaded Scotland and stole the Stone of Scone? So they could get the Scots to invent stuff for them that is?



Emperor1956 -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 10:55:07 PM)

Thanksgiving is a day when we in the United States of America celebrate the arrival of some of the earliest persons of European descent on the shores of what became the USA.  In fact, the Spanish had been here long before the Mayflower docked, the French had surely made inroads from Canada down, the Portugese had sent over some emissaries and some believe that the Swedes or other Norse people were here in their amazing longboats before any of those.

The Pilgrims (as we call them) were fleeing religious oppression, debtors' prison, a horribly corrupt legal system and an archaic land entailment law that kept poor farmers no better than serfs.  And the lovely place that they were fleeing was ENGLAND.  Not, mind you, Scotland, Wales or Ireland, all of whom have their own histories of bloody oppression by...oh, gee....ENGLAND.

Of course, the newly founded  North American colonies were not alone in their love of the motherland.  All over the world, those on the Indian continent, many in Asia, some in Africa and of course all of the continent of Australia were "in love" with their spiritual homeland which exploited their resources, maintained racist regimes and kept millions in oppression.  And the country to which these largely embittered and exploited colonies raised their glasses of whatever nasty local beverage their  oppressive motherland left them to swill was  ENGLAND!

Now just what part of your post was not USA bashing?  Oh, and happy Thanksgiving, miss.

E.



Lordandmaster -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 11:00:36 PM)

You know, they abolished slavery long before we did.

Just sayin'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

All over the world, those on the Indian continent, many in Asia, some in Africa and of course all of the continent of Australia were "in love" with their spiritual homeland which exploited their resources, maintained racist regimes and kept millions in oppression.



Emperor1956 -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 11:06:10 PM)

quote:

You know, they abolished slavery long before we did.

Just sayin'.


Well, yes and no.  They abolished slavery, but I suggest that they kept millions in economic and social subjugation pretty much functionally akin to slavery.  Then again, a lot of those millions escaped to...here.  and Canada.  And around the world.  So they weren't slaves anymore.

I'm not saying the good old US of A doesn't have a history of imperialism and oppression, mind you.  Nor that the English are the only ones who do.  But I did find her "humorous" (Or is that "humourous"  -- they can't SPELL either, you know) post a bit much.   And don't get me started on their lack of innovation/invention.  Or their food *GRIN*

E.



Lordandmaster -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/23/2006 11:14:04 PM)

Well, it's a tough call.  Blame to hand out all around.  But I don't think our country matured until the 14th Amendment.  Before then, it was some other regime, a republic based on some very good ideas and some very bad ones--a nice place to be a planter or a Quaker, not a nice place to be a slave.



LadyEllen -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 2:35:31 AM)

OK - enough England bashing.

Do you know why Scotland had to be taken in by England to form the fledgling UK in the early 18th century? Because, those "poor oppressed Scots" went on an imperial adventure themselves in the late 17th century. The expedition was financed from contributions from all over Scotland, the contributors believing their money to be a wise investment which would bring them much wealth from the exploitation of the lands they took - which of course would have necessitated the oppression of at least a few natives.

They set sail for central America, wanting to seize lands and then find a way through to the Pacific, by which they would become the monopolistic controllers of a new trade route which didnt require a trip around either of the dangerous Capes. Merchants would transship their goods over central America, courtesy of the Scots, to whom would obviously be paid a hefty commission for the privilege.

Except, that the whole damned thing failed. They couldnt find the imaginary location where such a scheme might work, they were hemmed in by jungle, struck down with disease and the imperial ambitions of Scotland foundered - along with such a large amount of the wealth of the country, which had been poured into this trip, that Scotland as a country was bankrupted by it.

What followed then was that the Scots petitioned England for aid, and the whole thing ended up with the Act of Union, by which Scotland was joined to England. We can argue all we like about what I see as the disgraceful manner in which the Scots, Welsh and especially the Irish were treated by the English aristocracy, but this Union was what brought Scotland into the world and gave it access to the science which flourished not long after, which in turn led to the great Scottish innovators and inventors of the following centuries. Had Scotland been able to continue alone, it may have produced these great contributions, but on the other hand as a northern outpost of Europe, cut off from so much of the continent and living still perhaps in a feudal or clan system, it probably would not have.

I would also like to remind the world, that just as not every American has ancestors who participated in exterminating the natives, handing them diseased blankets, taking their land and food, so it is here. If you wish to locate those who have ancestors who did what was done to the Scots, Welsh and Irish, then its the aristos you want - and not just the English ones I'm afraid; plenty enough was handed out by Scots!

E



Elegant -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 6:08:45 AM)

Actually, the celebration of Thanksgiving in America originated from the harvesthome ceremonies originally held in England.



Saratov -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 7:13:07 AM)

Ya know why the Irish wear skir..... kilts?
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sheep can hear zippers a mile away.

Ya know why Scottsmen wear skir..... kilts ([8|] I always have problems w/ those two[;)])
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The Irish can hear zippers too!



[:D] [:D] [:D]



Saratov -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 7:14:35 AM)

See, no English Bashing there! [:)] 



LadyEllen -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 8:47:44 AM)

I never understood why the Scots wore skir....kilts.

Then I realised why, from something a Scot told me about what he and his mates liked to do at weekends - they apparently love the fresh air around the Trossachs, and like to fish around them in a nice quiet spot. Its the ease of access to the Trossachs, as well as the pleasure they get from them, which explains it all.

I put two and two together, naturally.

E

PS - top prize to anyone who knows what the Trossachs are!



Emperor1956 -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 8:50:34 AM)

quote:

OK - enough England bashing.   [snip]


Wait a minute.  Did you ever hear of The Clearances?  Possibly the most infamous political and social program Merrie Olde England perpetrated on its own population?  The wholesale theft of land from small freeholders in favor of English gentry and the depopulation and forced removal of an entire culture?  This began shortly after the end of the Jacobite rebellion, exactly at the same time you claim the Scots were seeking "world domination".  They were ONLY trying to get free from England.

You really have no sense of your own history.

And never enough England bashing!  I really have no dislike of England -- but you pompous, ill-educated jingoists are SO fun to tease.

E.



LadyEllen -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 9:18:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

quote:

OK - enough England bashing.   [snip]


Wait a minute.  Did you ever hear of The Clearances?  Possibly the most infamous political and social program Merrie Olde England perpetrated on its own population?  The wholesale theft of land from small freeholders in favor of English gentry and the depopulation and forced removal of an entire culture?  This began shortly after the end of the Jacobite rebellion, exactly at the same time you claim the Scots were seeking "world domination".  They were ONLY trying to get free from England.

You really have no sense of your own history.

And never enough England bashing!  I really have no dislike of England -- but you pompous, ill-educated jingoists are SO fun to tease.

E.


The clearances? You mean the Highland clearances, where the local Scottish nobles actively and willingly forced their people off their land? Yes, I know about it. It didnt affect English people though - we were stuffed in a similar way by the Enclosures Act as it happens, by the same sort of aristos who did the same in Scotland.

The Jacobite rebellion? Yes, I know about that too. You know, the real start of all that was the removal of a king (well, he ran away to be fair) of Scottish descent from the throne of England and by default at that time from the throne of Scotland too. A king whose father had had to be executed after stirring up a lot of trouble, and who in turn threatened more trouble. He wasnt removed for being Scottish, but for being a trouble maker.

We had Scottish kings for a century, starting with James I (VI of Scotland), and Scotland was by no means a secondary player in British affairs; in fact a great proportion of those who fought the civil war here were Scots (and Irish), and it can be said that without their involvement the whole thing might not have been concluded as it was. Interesting thing though, it was well known for the Scots and Irish to change sides for money, halfway through a campaign. Real noble that.

Since then, at the time that Scotland made its imperial adventure it was a separate kingdom and its only link with England was through a common and Scottish king, how is it that they were needing to be free of England? They were after all, in the ascendant, as power brokers and as those to whom the king of England had kinship - explaining why they were the ones he went to for support in the Jacobite wars, which proved unsuccessful and further ruined Scotland and not only paved the way for the clearances but indeed made them necessary to rescue the economy of the country.

I'm sympathetic to the suffering that went on, but all this "hate the English" stuff is so wrong. Its still a fact of life today that the Scots still hate us, for something which their own aristos took full part and profit in. But, its a little like the slave trade from Africa - its so much more convenient to blame the white merchants than to look at the aristos of west Africa who gleefully sold even their own people for a profit.

And by the way, I have an excellent sense of our history and I'm neither a jingoist nor ill educated nor pompous. Arrogant, but not pompous.

E



RibbonsAndCurls -> RE: "Thats an American holiday Walt....." (11/24/2006 11:11:39 AM)

...well, that's my history lesson for the day.



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