quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

...Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden, Fight Club.  This comment relates to the fact that calling the United States a democracy does not actually make it one.

I agree... and you've admirably demonstrated that you can call something or someone whatever you chose but it doesn't make it true.

The evidence abounds as to the democratic principles which were originally set up in this country in the original Bill of Rights have been systematically dismantled by this Government, almost from it's inception. Jefferson even wrote about the future problems to Adams back in 1789.

Plato wrote about the future problems of the political system of democracy thousands of years ago.

But as you have not bothered to articulately respond to any of the examples I have given where the government of the United States has abridged democratic principles and civil liberties and constitutional guarantees, and continue to apply dictionary definitions (square peg) to the (round hole) US political system, I can only assume that you have taken the blue pill.

I am still puzzled why are we talking about the United States political system on a thread you started about the economic principles of capitalism.  However, I really do not expect an articulate rationale behind this rhetorical oddity, so...

Peace out.

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

...Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden, Fight Club.  This comment relates to the fact that calling the United States a democracy does not actually make it one.

I agree... and you've admirably demonstrated that you can call something or someone whatever you chose but it doesn't make it true.

The evidence abounds as to the democratic principles which were originally set up in this country in the original Bill of Rights have been systematically dismantled by this Government, almost from it's inception. Jefferson even wrote about the future problems to Adams back in 1789.

Plato wrote about the future problems of the political system of democracy thousands of years ago.

But as you have not bothered to articulately respond to any of the examples I have given where the government of the United States has abridged democratic principles and civil liberties and constitutional guarantees, and continue to apply dictionary definitions (square peg) to the (round hole) US political system, I can only assume that you have taken the blue pill.

I am still puzzled why are we talking about the United States political system on a thread you started about the economic principles of capitalism.  However, I really do not expect an articulate rationale behind this rhetorical oddity, so...

Peace out.

Sinergy

You know Sinergy, the rest of us are having a rather nice discussion about very sensitive subjects without rancor or hard feelings.

I see little or no snarky or snide comments in the last few pages, and very little at all, if you take LaM's comments away from the bulk of the thread.

I, losttreasure, NorthernGent, thompsonx, LTRsubNW, seeksfemslave, subfever, marc2b, NeedToUseYou, luckydog, RealOne (even juliaoceana) and all the other posters don't (and probably never will) agree about some of these subjects, but we are calmly exploring each others' viewpoints.

None of us have displayed "know-it-all-itis" in this thread, and I'm actually very proud of everyone here, even if I do disagree, and will rhetorically attack their positions.
Yes I have.
The  bumper sticker on my car says "Those of you who think you know it all are especially distressing to those of us who do"
thompson



But your posts here are of an entirely different kettle of fish.

Your last few posts add nothing to the content, or to the free flow of information.  You use your rhetorical "skills" to attempt to prove how much more you know than everyone else.  You use snide insinuations of stupidity and gullibility of other posters, and attempt to couch it in such a manner that you can claim "innocence".

I don't buy it. 

If you want to discuss - fine.  If you just want to do a "peacock of the walk" - please go elsewhere.

Could be wrong, just me, yada, yada, yada ...

Peace out.

FirmKY

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
This business of the 16th Amendment to the constitution, well Wikipedia says 42 states ratified it....so I dont know. It appears that is was not about the raising of taxes by the Federal government per se, but HOW those taxes were raised.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Ultimately, any failure of capitalism is human just like any failure of communism is human. The problem is that the majority let the ideologues call the shots and that is the failure of democracy.

Why do I think that capitalism in its present form will fail? Because it uses the the planet and its resources as free assets that are replenishable and abundant and as a free dumping ground for its waste without consequences being considered. We are now all to well aware of the consequences but capitalism isn't responding because those people with power and money won't modify their actions until they see their competitors modify their actions. The only solution to this inertia is regulation and forced change which is anti-captialist because it kicks against the markets but not  anti-democratic if backed by the majority. Sooner or later the backing of the majority for a forced change will happen when people realise the consequences of not backing change. Hopefully it won't come too late.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Ponder this:

The earth has been turned into a desolate waste land millions are dying and guess who is there to save the day?  The capitalists!!!  They will charge us to clean up their mess as is being done now right this moment today!  Capitalism is to my most conservative estimation the next best thing to perpetual motion. 

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Ponder this:

The earth has been turned into a desolate waste land millions are dying and guess who is there to save the day?  The capitalists!!!  They will charge us to clean up their mess as is being done now right this moment today!  Capitalism is to my most conservative estimation the next best thing to perpetual motion. 

This is delusional. This will only happen if you live in a country with a capitalist ideology and the chances are they will charge you, the tax payer, more for it that it would cost you through a government resourced clean up programme  but you believe so much in capitalism you will pay twice as much for a capitalist to do the job than the government. That is why the average American pay twice as much for their health service than the average European and it doesn't even cover the entire American population.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Meandering through a drug induced euphoria it comes to me that capitalism is not in and of itself bad.  When capital begins to believe that it is superior to labor it becomes nothing but a sack full of gold and useful for nothing except perhaps a doorstop.  With labor as a co-equal partner, both acting in a eco-responsible fashion,  we both can use that doorstop to purchase what labor has produced and capital has financed.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I think some people - who have such a strong distaste for capitalism, and the failures of the US - forget (or never understood) this.
FirmKY

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Add to this, the growing political power of the "masses", who then have more political power than mere serfs or slaves, and what you have is power shifting slowly but constantly to more and more people.

FirmKY

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i always thought democracy or some form of it amd capitalism were bed buddies, (at least to the ruling elite who can afford to pay for it),  where democracy imo is considerably more argueably "on topic" as far as capitalism is concerned than 13 pages of global warming, finger pointing and general bickering about slighted egos.  Granted the resources of the planet will effect how the business of capitalism is conducted but it certainly does not define either its failure or success.  That and speaking of failure and success i think its important in any discussion like this to at least understand what the hell failure of a system is in the first place?  i see no defintions as to exactly what is failure which i suppose is yet a whole nuther topic in itself.  Leaving this topic as "open ended" and boundless as it is makes the eco system, democracy and stubbing my toe all fair game to discuss as part of capitalism which in itself since it is an interdependent econo-political system has many avenues to examine to be able to come to any reasonable conclusion in success or failure in the first place imo.

It seems to me that greed for money can and will ruin any political system where if there is a failure to be had in capitalism it would evolve from the foibles and atrocities of greed not the ism in itself and we could take this back to the good ole 10 commandments or ethics if we really wanted to get down to failure mode analysis of a system as i do not see capitalism in its pure sense being capable of failing anyone without greed woven into the fabric.

So the failure mode as i see it is one word.  "greed".

all fair game to discuss as part of capitalism which in itself since it is an interdependent econo-political system has many avenues to examine to be able to come to any reasonable conclusion in success or failure in the first place imo.

It seems to me that greed for money can and will ruin any political system where if there is a failure to be had in capitalism it would evolve from the foibles and atrocities of greed not the ism in itself

So the failure mode as i see it is one word.  "greed".

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I think this is a good stab at defining "failure", but "greed" itself is a relative term.  I wouldn't simply relate it to the overpowering love of money, but widen it to include the overpowering love of .... power.  Money is power.


But it does take into account my concerns with many of the "true believers" of any social system, such as the "global warming" true believers that dominated the early part of this thread.

All the negative things laid at capitalisms doorstep can just as easily become negative things laid at the feet of the radical environmentalist.  It's just, that since they are "doing it for the greater good of all mankind" that they fail to see the beam in their own eye - and that worries me.

FirmKY

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Having a roof over your head is the bare minimum requirement for being on this earth.

There are homeless who might disagree with you. 

True enough and it is shocking that countries in the Western world with all their wealth have serious homelessness problems. The Government needs to step in and do something about the 700,000 to 2 million homeless problem you have in the US. Maybe take a few yachts off these rich types and use the money to fund homes and shelters (simplistic but I think you get the point). This brings me back to my original point that the Governments of Britain and the US need to get a grip on the distribution of wealth in the two countries.

Not to imply that it isn't a worthwhile conversation, but discussing the homeless situation is truly mind-boggling in scope.  There is a great discrepancy in exactly what constitutes homelessness, so it would be an even more arduous task to consider options to address it.

I'll will however concede that your figures are accurate and perhaps highly conservative.  But I'll also point out that based on the last rigorous attempt to estimate the homeless prevalence in the United States that was undertaken by the 1996 National Survey of Homeless Assistance Providers and Clients (NSHAPC), the findings showed that 80% of those who experience homelessness do so for less than 3 weeks, and only 10% remain without housing for extended periods of time on a frequent basis.

While I'm not in the least opposed to providing assistance to those in need, I don't feel that should be the responsibility of or even a major function of government.  We've already a struggle with the government's lack of efficiency in discharging the duties it has.  You don't put the fox in charge of the henhouse.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Well, possibly. I'm sticking to my guns here and saying those living in straw huts a thousand years ago had a roof over their heads so if this is the best we can do for today's society then we're struggling.

I understand your position, but I just don't agree.  Owning a home is far better than being homeless, and of course it's the best because as far as housing options go, what would be better?  Besides, it's not the only thing "we do" for society.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To an extent I agree. I'm a reasonably simple man with simple tastes and my simple tastes are satisfied. What about the homeless though? I imagine they're not too impressed that they're sleeping in a box while the rich go swanning about in the lap of obscene luxury. It comes back to my wealth gap point - it is obscene that a country like the US has so many homeless. Genuinely, from where I'm standing it's pretty shocking. Same with Britain. Too busy spending tax money on tridents instead of hospitals, affordable housing etc. Too many people with their priorities completely out of order.

There is a fundamental difference in viewpoints here that we are simply going to have to agree to disagree upon.  While I agree that it is pitiable that there are homeless at all, I do not see where the existence of the few who have so much is relevant.  The rich did not cause these people to become homeless.

I do not believe in finite wealth.  If society needs to solve the homeless problem, it needs to address the causes of homelessness and not worry about redistributing wealth.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Ok, point taken here. We don't have much call for air conditioning. Hey, I like it, it's comfortable and rain gives the place character! 95F on average?! that's hot in anyone's language (unless you're a gecko on the plains of the Sahara). How do you cope in that heat? It must be torture!

Air conditioning.    It would be very uncomfortable if we didn't have it. 

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

My real point is there is a huge wealth gap in the US which in my opinion is unhealthy and not impressive.

There will always be inequities in life.  If we address them is one issue, how we go about addressing them is another.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

True, but then aren't we the nations who think we're a cut above the rest? Be honest, you do and we do. You can see it on these boards day in, day out. If you and us are that good then we should be able to prove it by running a society where everyone gets a fair crack at life.

We can always improve, but my point has been that in the overall scheme of things, what we've been doing so far has achieved far better results.  You take what works and make it better... you don't trash it to try something altogether different.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
 
I take this point, people have differing priorities. Still, the provision of cheap housing and cheap consumer goods don't satisfy my mind that the very rich are justified in living in obscene luxury. I was in Southern Ireland last year and British buyers have snapped up many of the holiday homes and they're standing empty apart from the 3 weeks or so that they visit. Too much money in the wrong hands as far as I'm concerned.

As I've said, there will always be inequities in life.  We learn to accept and live with what we have, and not lament that others might be more fortunate.  If we're smart, we learn to take what we have and make the most of it.

On the other hand... youth is wasted on the young. 

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Hey! Trying to put me off the scent with frivolity! Very crafty!

What is life if you can't enjoy it? 

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

One of the "dreams" that I have is that as a species, we can indeed achieve the sort of society that meatcleaver proposes (and confuses with how humanity lived in the middle ages).  And I think the only way to get to this type of society is through capitalism - even with all its faults, it holds out the best possibility of freeing the majority of mankind from the drudgery of life and opening up freedom for the individual.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Ultimately, any failure of capitalism is human just like any failure of communism is human. The problem is that the majority let the ideologues call the shots and that is the failure of democracy.

MC, no, the problem is the majority of people do not care. Apathy is the problem. You ask 100 people in Britain if they think Tony Blair is an ideologue and they will say "eh?" Also, you are being far too complimentary to our politicians - they are exactly the opposite of ideologues i.e. they pander to interest groups - they are completely devoid of principles.

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None of us have displayed "know-it-all-itis" in this thread, and I'm actually very proud of everyone here, even if I do disagree, and will rhetorically attack their positions.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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None of us have displayed "know-it-all-itis" in this thread, and I'm actually very proud of everyone here, even if I do disagree, and will rhetorically attack their positions.

You know you never addressed my position, so I have decided you must agree with it.

edited from my original comment to state that I do not want you to state "pride" in my postings while attacking my Daddy's, I find that behavior very distasteful. And I find my Daddy's comments quite appropriate.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

One of the "dreams" that I have is that as a species, we can indeed achieve the sort of society that meatcleaver proposes (and confuses with how humanity lived in the middle ages).  And I think the only way to get to this type of society is through capitalism - even with all its faults, it holds out the best possibility of freeing the majority of mankind from the drudgery of life and opening up freedom for the individual.

You are putting words in my mouth. I have never proposed a uptopia based on feudalism, I'm not an idiot, I was pointing out there is alternatives to capitalism, that life can be lived with renewable sources and without capitalism's apropriation of time, which is a human being's most valuable resource.

If I remember right capitalism was going to free people's time, firstly in the industrial age and secondly in the information age and it never succeeded in either because of its need to squeeze out the last available cent of profit. In fact western countries are richer now than they were in the sixties and in many countries people work longer hours now than they did then. Capitalism will never free the vast majority of people, it might placate them with toys that distract them from the reality of their lives, which it does now.