Amaros
Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
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Where are all the Marxist hiding when news like this comes out?
Mostly where they were to begin with - in your imagination. It's not a particularly popular economic system among the working public - which includes the bulk of liberals - the pay is lousy for one thing.
I would have to also mention that "incomes" is a meaningless term - as measured against what? The cost of living? Presumably, they mean that prosperity is more widespread, which is a good thing, as it tends to slow population growth - at the same time, it's really bad nes fro business, because it means that at some point they will have to address the disparity in compensation between labor and capital - unless they can convince us that we are really slaves by dint of natural order. Otherwise, stock dividends and management compensation are going to take a hit.
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1. If not capitalism, and if not "centralized economies", then what type of economic system do you envision would accomplish what you wish?
Heh, the World Bank - any specific figures on Argentina in there? They are obviously talking about economies in which they had no hand in shaping. Capitalism is inherently decentralized by definition, you are talking about the top down neo-liberal "Capitalism" promulgated by the WB, not competitive, bottom up classical capitalism.
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I just have to say, that I've been reading about "the end of the environment" my entire life. Global warming now, global cooling in the 70s ... and it still all seems like scare tactics to me, done for either political, or philosophical reasons, and not substantially for the advancement of mankind's knowledge.
It is useful to remember that it is we who require a stable environment, not that the environment needs us - no you can't "destroy nature" you can only destroy the stable ecological balance that makes civilization possible.
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In what way do you find the World Bank "partisan"?
Heh, the main difference between neo-liberals and neo-conservatives is that neo-liberals manage to strip entire countries naked without having to put jumper cables on anybodies nuts - they can whip a whole country right out from under your feet and still respect you human rights. You gotta wonder sometimes what exactly the neo-conservative motivation really is.
I mean, I don't mean to condone it or anything, but what is it you guys are really after anyway?
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4. That capitalism hasn't provided any additional free time or leisure to the peoples of the world, but in reality has "appropriated time" in some unspecified nefarious manner,
True, actually - as an example, the definition of "clean"has changed - instead of "visible soil" as a definition of "dirty", it usually means that it has touched human skin. Laundry takes longer now than it did a hundred years ago, and the market for laundry products ought to be an indication.
People didn't comute much either - some Americans spend as much as four hours or more a day simply driving from one place to another.
It's neither here not there in some respects, we get further, faster, but in fact, it does constitute a diminishment of leisure time, a fact observed and specified by anthropologists for many years now.
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6. That capitalism hasn't contributed to the store of mankind's knowledge, its technology nor improvements of any kind in life since the middle ages.
Electric lighting and heating is the main reason life spans increased, with modern medicine (developed and refined by "paganss", witches and executioners) takign care of some of the related complications (http://www.amazon.com/Panatis-Extraordinary-Practically-Everything-Everybody/dp/0060962798). But managed capitalism of the World Bank variety is well on it's way to restoring feudalism in all it's glory - you'll just be miserable for a lot longer, it'll save on training costs.
Oh, and the main obstacle to progress in the middle ages happened to be religion, Christianity specifically, which contributed Illuminated manuscripts, and very little else to Western culture - and that's because they had a lot of time on their hands.
The debate over standard of living and quality of life is a valid one, which I''l re-read when I'll read with interest when I'm not quite so lit up - and I daresay, possibly one of the many possible reasons that civilizations decline - sometimes, I think it just makes more sense - a theory of mine that possibly applies to say the Incan civilization - their ruling classes became so corrupt they decided just not to bother anymore: a principle that can be discerned in say bio-intenssive agriculture, which, far from Ludditeism, is a more refined application of technology than genetic engineering.
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Capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others.
As alluded to previously, it helps to know whether we are talking about capitalism or some rabbit pulled out of a hat being referred to as capitalism.
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Aside from the fact that I don't think there is any possible way for this statement to be validated, I can't help but think of those dreamers who envision how wonderful life must have been in "the good 'ol days" when things were simpler.
Life short, nasty and brutish - unlees you had money, and most times, even then - see Panati's above - still, people, families, entire communities are squashed like bugs, die horrible, suffer inconvievable agony and death because Americans want the latest, hippest cell phone - others get rich off this suffering. The point being, shit happens, but when soemthing is avoidable - when it's a question not of neccessity but casual choice - you are morally culpable in the chain of cause and effect.
In capitalism, your dollar is your vote, you vote on what happens to people, things that irrevocably alter their entire lives, everytime you spend a dime - as a Christian - the least you can do is think about it. True, demand creates incentive to increase supply, and the whole merry-go-round of consumerism starts spinning - but what is it you really need - keeping in mind that as corpses, we are all equal, in this world if not the other.
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1. Have an animosity towards free markets,
2. Believe in re-ordering society by force of government edict,
3. Are athestic or agnostic (antagonistic toward religion),
4. Are anti-American,
5. Aren't scientifically minded (are "emotional" rather than "rational"),
6. Have utopian views about how human society should function.
This sounds like a collection of sound bytes to me, selected for their emotional appeal - I'd love to take them apart one by one, but I wanna hit a coule of ther forums. I will want to get back to you on tis utopian thng though, I'd be interested if you care to elaborate on what connotations that particualr word-symbol evoke for you.
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1.Free markets don't exist and never have. Free markets are about the power to exploit the weak.
Gott a pick on meatcleaver for a minute - free markets are just what people do when they aren't subject to feudalism, it all starts with division of labor. Capitalism is about artificially sustaining the natural (initial) state of affairs.Not all that different from ideal, theoretical Marxism, actually (to each according to his abilities, etc.). Throw in profit sharing (stock), and you practially have Marxism in perfect praxis (for you Marx fans out there, it ther actually are any). That markets are prone to distortion is a given, Adam Smith was the first to notice it and comment for the record.
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2. No, because they don't work, generally. But yes, you need govts. to change corporation's behaviour - in conjunction with consumers. (No, industry doesn't sort itself out - it goes and poisons lakes and kills people).
Good, you see the utility of regulation, the rest is the study of market dynamics.
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1. I'm drunk. But I'm pretty sure there's nothing intrinsically wrong with free markets - they don't exist or anything, but like communism, are a really awesome and totally unfeasible idea. Too many people are rubbish to allow it to work without a lot of wastage (and by that I mean 'people getting screwed over').
Hah! Me too! In vino veritas.
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Then why aren't you still living like that?
Haha, booorring.
Yes, it is. You cannot barter what does not belong to you, and the freedom to barter is part of a free market... something supported by capitalism.
Supported, not invented - but every little bit helps.
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I see... you are blaming capitalism where the issues you have really stem from the ethics of people.
Ethics invariably appears to be come a function of regulation, over time.
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Communism: A slave from the old south (US) belongs to a plantation where cotton is grown. The slave is provided with the necessities of life as the plantation owner sees fit. If the slave wished to vary something in his existence... for example wanted ham instead of chicken as a staple to his diet, he is not free to barter the cotton he picks for ham. He is not free to stop growing cotton and start raising pigs. The ownership and control of the production, distribution and consumption of goods belongs to the plantation owner.
Feudalism
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Socialism: In a Hutterite community, the decision of what to farm and produce, what purchases are made, and even what each member consumes daily (meals are taken by the entire colony in a common long room) is made on a collective basis. If a Hutterian family desires a larger house, they are not free to set aside and save any of what they produce to use in trade for bigger accomodations. Everything belongs to the community and they must live with what they are assigned.
That's a neighborhood association. But essentially, a function of capitalism, what is at issue is some abstraction of property value, aesthetic or otherwise on the part of the collective.
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Capitalism: A young man discovers that he has a penchant for fixing automobile engines. He develops his skill, acquires the tools needed, and sets himself up in business. He has the freedom to control his business... he decides when and how much work he will perform, and what he will take in trade for his services based on the value that others place on his services. Whether he prospers or fails is up to him and he is solely responsible for his lot in life.
...and he cans sell it off as a franchise to a corporation, hopefully before he's crushed by that or another corporation. That's what i love about capitalism though - you can make a business of starting up and selling businesses.
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I'd ask how many of the true believers in global warming were "pro-capitalists" even before they were introduced to global warming? Few, I'd think.
A telling statement" capitalism equates with big business here, and cpuple of posts back we were talking bout hunter gathererers. Bottom line is, does business have any responisbility towards the comminity, i.e., is it part of the community, or is it's only function to generate profits for management and stockholders, insulated from the consequences by class and geography?
It's a deliberate attempt to subvert the topic, i.e., propaganda, to create a red herring of "anti-capitalism" when in fact we are talking about the reasonable limits of corporate entities with respect to our survival - adn all that entials on either side of the spectrum. Does being a capitalis, i.e., persuing my self interest, include selling my childrens future for 5.25 an hour so that Dick Cheney can make his 8:30 tee off?
Is it really in your best interests to suck Dick? How are my children less important than his? Or yours.
I'm getting too fucked up to continue, but for the record, I'm a dyed in the wool capitalist, militant even - I don't hate Marxists, I convert them - trouble is, the Randism that passes for capitalism in the neo-con camp is just crypto-fuedalism - that why you guys crashed and burned: you couldn't compete with reality, whichhappens to be the self interest of all th other human beings on the planet, even the ones that don't count.
Let's exercise a little human compassion, and start from there - standard of living vs. quality of life - can we compromise and still maintain the incentive to innovate solutions? Is human compassion enough incentive in itself?
Can't we all just fuck around?
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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 
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