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RE: Performance based D/s - 3/1/2005 1:38:56 PM

alpha1

Posts: 2
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline

Grandpa lash

I am talking in general terms and from what I have noticed and been told by subs that have been sent to me for training.

And you are very correct the problem is not always the subs.
Many times what appears to happen is that a sub will find a master and expect that master to be able to provide everything they are looking for.

then after a short period of time it is discovered that the master is not what they wanted to begin with or as in many cases the masters style just does not fit into the needs of the sub.
like i said before. I have seen doms that can handle a sub\slave with skill and ability unmatched by others as long as the sub was taught to obey by someone else.

ever noticed that the best race car drivers in the world dont change there own tires lol.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 21

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/1/2005 3:03:27 PM

Voltare

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

Couple things.

First, I do agree with Taggards list, though only as a start. I wish I had time to expand on it, as I think there are more then just the few he mentioned (including relationships outside of the typical negotiated situations.)

Second, as to Gemeni's supposition about expectations, I would have to disagree. I don't think anyone (as the majority of posters here have shown) would argue that whatever qualifications you require of a submissive, slave, or anyone else you care to spend intimate time with are wrong. Quite the opposite, BDSM activities aren't charity, nor are relationships. I don't have to date anyone 'in spite' of their failures, shortcomings, or qualities. I might be thought of as shallow if I only dated women with big breasts and blonde hair, but if I express a preference for such women - but still expect a personality or intellect, then it is simply that, a preference (in reality, I couldn't care less about hair color or breast size, but her taste in music and movies, and her ability to communicate are absolute requirements for me!)

If a woman's 'usefulness' around are the ONLY requirement for me, then I would think myself shallow, as the romantic and personal connection are quite important in my mind. Obviously, different people have different needs, but I don't relate to anyone on a strictly BDSM or Ds level. Some people do, and that's fine for them. Suggesting that 'soft sites' somehow damage community by their focus on relationships vice bondage technique has nothing to do with hard line or practicality. Quite the contrary, they are (in my mind) invaluable tools to help those who have just begun to learn the ropes how to differentiate between reputable skilled players with experience, and the predators masquerading as all knowing gurus to entice the naive into their grasp.

BDSM isn't about service - neither what I can do for a sub, nor what she can do for me. It is about what people do together, with each other, be it for a lifetime or just for a few hours. As songbird26 related, there are lots of people with compatible desires to enjoy these activities together. Focusing on what I can do to make the sub's experience more enjoyable is my half of the social contract. If she fails to hold up her end, then I have the option of cancelling it and moving on to the next one. I certainly don't need the approval or dissapproval of the BDSM community at large, nor it's most prominent memebers to make this choice.

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to alpha1)

Post #: 22

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/1/2005 4:11:07 PM

harmony3709

Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I tend to shy away from labels such as service submissive or bedroom submissive when describing myself, only due to the various interpretations and so on, and prefer instead to get to know someone and through discussion and asking questions try to determine what he is looking for in a submissive. If pressed though to label myself, I would consider myself both a service and bedroom submissive, as I have had relationships that were one or the other, and each left me feeling equally unfulfilled and frustrated with a strong sense that something was missing.

As a submissive, I can completely agree and relate to what krikket stated in her reply here. I have often met those that give me a complete look of confusion when I bring up the topic of service. I have come to often ask the question: "What could I do to make your life easier?" "How could I be of use to you?" Maybe this is the wrong way to ask or phrase it, but it is what feels right to me, to make their life easier and better.

When I mention that service brings me extreme pleasure and satisfaction, to know that I am of use to my Dom -- outside of or in addition to the bedroom or dungeon -- I have far too often seen either the look of incomprehension or been told that they are "not that 'kind' of Dom." I have been told by several outright that they think that it would take too much work and effort on their part. I've actually heard comments that implied I was somehow not too "bright" and was asking for someone to tell me what to do because I was incapable of doing anything on my own. Some of the other comments are even too rediculous to list here.

So with regard to the OP and the question asked: What is your take on D/s as a performance dynamic?

I find that part of the equation is vital for me and also what I have found to be the hardest part of the dynamic to find in a Dominant. It is also, again as indicated in krikket's post, one component of the D/s relationship for me.

harmony

(in reply to Voltare)

Post #: 23

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/1/2005 4:51:10 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare
I wish I had time to expand on it, as I think there are more then just the few he mentioned (including relationships outside of the typical negotiated situations.)

Stephan, I have always enjoyed your posts and would love to read your further thoughts on this.

The list I posted wasn't my all inclusive list. I left out Big/little (which I think is a kind of 4) and owner/pet|puppy|pony (which is a combination of 4 and 2). And those are ust the D/s relationships. There are also S&M and B&D relationship types...

Hoping you get some time to write about this,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Voltare)

Post #: 24

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/3/2005 3:07:10 PM

Voltare

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

Taggard,

I'll try to have something up in a day or so. Briefly though, I truely believe that BDSM/Ds/Ms/S&M/etc relationships have much more in common with vanilla and other 'normal' relationships then they have differences. With an understanding of power exchange dynamics, the world seemed to be a lot less mystifying to me, as it became clear (to me) why some relationships worked, and others didn't. For example, my parents were both clearly submissive, with my mother having the stronger personality of the two. It was a total disaster and ended up in a messy divorce six years later. Since, both have remarried (my mother twice) always preferring dominent partners in the extreme. Neither of them show any sign that they have experiemented or had any interest in alternative lifestyles, much like the classic 'Leave it to Beaver' analogies, but knowing what I do today certainly has shed light on the events of my own life. With this in mind, I think that Ds is everywhere. As 'lifestylers' we simply put a name to it and try to understand it better.

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 25

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/4/2005 7:33:39 PM

outlawrider

Posts: 17
Joined: 3/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

After all,there is no such things as selfless service is there? One must at the least,Dominate to be worthy of it in turn!

on which end? Gemeni?
i see this,..as myself,..on my side of it only...since service was mentioned here...
i am a service slave, and i have never, ever, asked for anything of reward, for my domestics services.
so yes there, is indeed, such a thing from me, in service as selfless.
and the Pro Domme that trained me gave me no rewards either.
i am happy enough in my service in the house and yards i know when a job is well done.
i don't need some good boy reward. but i went through this converstion before with someone somewhere.
you folks have a good weekend.
outlaw

(in reply to Gemeni)

Post #: 26

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/4/2005 8:16:22 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlawrider

quote:

After all,there is no such things as selfless service is there? One must at the least,Dominate to be worthy of it in turn!

on which end? Gemeni?
i see this,..as myself,..on my side of it only...since service was mentioned here...
i am a service slave, and i have never, ever, asked for anything of reward, for my domestics services.
so yes there, is indeed, such a thing from me, in service as selfless.
and the Pro Domme that trained me gave me no rewards either.
i am happy enough in my service in the house and yards i know when a job is well done.
i don't need some good boy reward. but i went through this converstion before with someone somewhere.
you folks have a good weekend.
outlaw

I ask this not to offend but to to understand. Do you find that there needs to be some recognition of the fact that you serve, even if it is only that you know she knows you are serving her? I ask because my girl serves selflessly in the same way that you describe but, when I asked her why seek a dominant rather than a non-profit organization or a vanilla husband, she needs an environment wherein she serves with the knowledge that her service is recognized for what it is. Like yourself she needs no rewards, not even a "well done", but she needs to serve one who accepts her service for the valuable commodity it is and recognizes from whence it springs. Volunteer work in a vanilla setting was never satisfying enough because it wasn't accepted in the same way. I apologize for the difficulty in phrasing my question in a more precise way. Sometimes language fails to capture the nuances. I hope I was clear enough to be understood correctly.
Timothy

(in reply to outlawrider)

Post #: 27

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/4/2005 9:41:33 PM

chainedgirl

Posts: 142
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline

Performance vs romance - does there have to be a separation? i don't classify myself as any sort of submissive, i am a submissive. What i like to do to show my submission is partly what interests me, what i feel a need to do and what is required by the Dominant at the time. For me, cleaning house, cooking, washing clothes/laundry, etc are all vital to my submission. So is being used sexually and told who, when, how i will be used(by). Also, told when to lean over the counter for a spanking.

What i need is someone who acknowledges what i do for them, not because they asked me to, but because i wish to, as an act of devotion or love or whatever. And someone who will say that i have done a good job, even if they didn't ask me to do it in the first place. Just a simple "great job" makes me so happy, way beyond the effort taken to say those two words. It makes me feel valued and appreciated. Sure, Master could have done it, or someone else could have done it, but i did it and its valued. And yes, i do it out of love for my Master. But i have also served other Dominants that i did not love. i still remember the first time i asked Master if i could come over to His house to clean. He arranged for me to turn up on a Wednesday night and i set about doing housework, while He chatted online with another submissive. He made the arrangement for my needs. He didn't need me to clean and wasn't necessarily seeking someone to clean, but He saw how happy it would make me to do so. At the end He 'rewarded' me with a 'good job'. For me the good/great job is not just two words. It means the Dominant has taken notice of what i have done. They have been aware of me working away, of how long i have been working and _can_ see the change to the environment from when i started. Very few vanilla r/ships i have been in, has the other person noticed the change let alone anything else.

As for castlerealm, that is where i first discovered i was a submissive. i had all these feelings and needs inside me but no understanding of them. i used to hate being in vanilla relationships because i turned into "Miss American housewife, 1950" as i put it. i became the service submissive this thread is about, but the other person never appreciated it, never understood what it was about and i always felt taken for granted. Places like castlerealm do perform a service to those who are first starting out. i think the problem of people only wanting 2-Dimentional D/s relationships come from the ease with which people enter the bdsm scene these days. For many like me, W/we started out with some kind of inner knowing W/we were different and having to do a lot of soul searching. When you do come across the scene, it is after you have done the acceptance/rejection dance a few times. You have explored various avenues and ideas and finally have some kind of understanding. Today, may see a few arousing pics online and then (usually with one hand on their privates) put up a post on sites like this one in the hope of meeting the man/woman who will do what was done in the pic. It is eroticism to the fore and not the relationship side of things. By relationship i mean the actual relating to each other in many ways.

i have tried the service only form of relationship in the past and it has left me cold and feeling exploited (mind you i actually was exploited once). i've had huge trust issues in the past and have found that if the Dominant can care for me, there is much less chance of Them abusing me. Call it a safety measure if you like, i just know that having the Dominant care or have some kind of emotional investment makes me feel safer and able to shine more fully. BUT i have to say, even though i need the emotional/romantic side, it is still Master who is incharge. It is still Master who calls the shots. i have given up the right to make decisions outside of what areas He has handed back to me to control. i fully accept this and find it easy to do, and i think part of finding it easy is knowing that He loves me.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

Post #: 28

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/5/2005 3:03:48 AM

MzBerlin

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

BDSM isn't about service - neither what I can do for a sub, nor what she can do for me. It is about what people do together, with each other, be it for a lifetime or just for a few hours. As songbird26 related, there are lots of people with compatible desires to enjoy these activities together. Focusing on what I can do to make the sub's experience more enjoyable is my half of the social contract. If she fails to hold up her end, then I have the option of cancelling it and moving on to the next one. I certainly don't need the approval or dissapproval of the BDSM community at large, nor it's most prominent memebers to make this choice.

Stephan

**completely agrees**

_____________________________

new pictures!! www.ropexpert.com
also- you can catch me on www.ksexradio.com every tuesday. I co-host Baadmasters' Dungeon!!

(in reply to Voltare)

Post #: 29

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/5/2005 8:58:49 AM

kyakitten

Posts: 145
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I ask this not to offend but to to understand. Do you find that there needs to be some recognition of the fact that you serve, even if it is only that you know she knows you are serving her? I ask because my girl serves selflessly in the same way that you describe but, when I asked her why seek a dominant rather than a non-profit organization or a vanilla husband, she needs an environment wherein she serves with the knowledge that her service is recognized for what it is. Like yourself she needs no rewards, not even a "well done", but she needs to serve one who accepts her service for the valuable commodity it is and recognizes from whence it springs. Volunteer work in a vanilla setting was never satisfying enough because it wasn't accepted in the same way.
Timothy

Dom Timothy,

Heck Yeah! Some of us need recognition and appreciation. I think it's pretty universal that without recognition, one can feel invisible; and with recognition but without appreciation, one can feel exploited. But all subs are different. You might like to see this thread: http://www.collarme.com:80/forum/m_58301/mpage_1/key_motivation/tm.htm#60203

< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 8:41:41 PM >

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

Post #: 30

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/5/2005 12:00:32 PM

DeadofKnight

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26

This is a *fascinating* thread! Thank you very much, Gemeni.......

I'm a big fan of people accepting personal responsibility for their lives, so I believe that it is the submissive's responsibility--as much as the dominant's!--to make sure that the relationship they find and enter into is the right and correct one for themselves. They might give up all or most decision making afterwards, but that's the big one. Every person is different. Every D/s dynamic must therefore also be different. Saying that I'm not interested in finding a dominant who simply and only needs a housekeeper or dishwasher or manicurist--because I know that that would be a destructive and miserable position for me, given my own personality and needs--doesn't make me less of a submissive or more of a "fake" or any other such thing. It simply means that I've worked hard to understand myself, and that therefore I think my odds of finding a successful D/s relationship, where service and romance and vanilla life and the real world can all blend harmoniously, are much, much improved.....

What a wonderfully put and thought out post. Thank you for expressing this in a way I may not have been able to.
I fully agree with you. Not just in the quoted statement, but in your full post. This quoted portion stood out to me.

I feel there must be a blending of many aspects in a relationship in order that I will feel fully content with the one I take on as my 'sub/slave/service/bottom' person. I feel I have found this person. I won't know with more certainty until we are in a one-on-one relationship and I have begun her training in these regards.

Again, thank you, songbird26, for putting it so succinctly.

On a different note, not hi-jacking this thread, but...
I am a bit of a 'word Nazi'. I love finding the meanings of new words, but detest when the people using them do not spell them correctly. It makes it harder to find the meanings of them. As in, pablumatic (no definition or similar word found) or prejorative, as has been used by some.
It is, pejorative. There is no "pre"-'jorative'.
According to Dictionary.com.... (which is my 'home page')
pe-jor'a-tive
adj.
1. Tending to make or become worse.
2. Disparaging; belittling.
n.
A disparaging or belittling word or expression.

Just a note to those using specific terms, trying to relate concepts.
I know I am going to get, umm, 'feedback' on this. So, try to be civil about it.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

_____________________________

Knight

These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.
Mutually collared with hesterprynne

(in reply to songbird26)

Post #: 31

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/6/2005 8:37:50 PM

outlawrider

Posts: 17
Joined: 3/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

BDSM isn't about service - neither what I can do for a sub, nor what she can do for me. It is about what people do together, with each other, be it for a lifetime or just for a few hours.

-------
well now, we have a whole new topic.
together? no no. i have never had any together. the dommes i have been around, the only together is groceries, and i am only the cart pusher anyway. there's no together there.
or uh, maybe the casino? She sits and plays for 10 hrs while all i do is get coffee and sodas?
no together there either.
i'm sorry people. you are talking greek to me. where and what is this together thing?

i have never done this. even with my wives. she had her friendes, i had mine. there has not been any together. this is a NEW concept "i" am unaware of.

interesting.
outlaw

(in reply to alpha1)

Post #: 32

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/6/2005 11:27:44 PM

MzBerlin

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlawrider

quote:

BDSM isn't about service - neither what I can do for a sub, nor what she can do for me. It is about what people do together, with each other, be it for a lifetime or just for a few hours.

-------
well now, we have a whole new topic.
together? no no. i have never had any together. the dommes i have been around, the only together is groceries, and i am only the cart pusher anyway. there's no together there.
or uh, maybe the casino? She sits and plays for 10 hrs while all i do is get coffee and sodas?
no together there either.
i'm sorry people. you are talking greek to me. where and what is this together thing?

i have never done this. even with my wives. she had her friendes, i had mine. there has not been any together. this is a NEW concept "i" am unaware of.

interesting.
outlaw

who would you be getting coffee for if she wasn't there? who would you be pushing the cart for? there is a 'together'. Without someone to provide service for, there is no service.
B

< Message edited by MzBerlin -- 3/6/2005 11:28:33 PM >

_____________________________

new pictures!! www.ropexpert.com
also- you can catch me on www.ksexradio.com every tuesday. I co-host Baadmasters' Dungeon!!

(in reply to outlawrider)

Post #: 33

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/7/2005 6:43:13 AM

nella

Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline

Here is my two cents. i am a submissive but that is more of how my personality is, i work best in a situation where somone else is in charge. In aditon i do like the kinky sex. But neiter kinky sex nor submission is the most inportant things in my life, far from it. i am a didicated occultist, and becouse of me having a disability pension becouse of depression that i often have, i am free to study as much as i can. And i do, often many houers every day. So i can not be a service sub, as taking care of the house and fecthing slippers just dont fit in my time skeduel. But i do like to pleese and often i will do chores when i have the time.

Why i am telling this is becouse i want to show that there are different sorts of submissives. Somone like being an unpaid maid, somone like being a torture victim, some just like to submitt on anothers will. It matters not realy what pepole want, as long as they find a Dominant want the same as them.

Just like in vanilla relationships. If an enutiastic nature person, that love long walks in nature and camping out more than anything, meet a pudgy littel person that perfers to sit whit his or her computer all day, that is set up for trubbel to. Werry often the Dominants scream that such and such are not a true submissive, she would not work an 10 hour shift as a house servant, when the submissive in question is more of a sexual submissive, but that dont make them less submissive, tey are just not suited to that dominant.

i could never live whit a Dominant that had the it is all aboute ME atitude. That did not cosider how i felt, and what i needed inportant at all. i dont think a Dominant like that do wrong, they just dont fit together whit me.

It is all aboute fitting the right Dom to the right sub.

(in reply to MzBerlin)

Post #: 34

RE: Performance based D/s - 3/7/2005 9:28:48 AM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

I agree with you, nella. It comes down to finding the right match of values and beliefs, goals and methodologies. Whether service-based or romance based, we have to focus on making sure we hook up with someone who shares our vision of what makes a successful relationship.
Timothy

(in reply to nella)

Post #: 35

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