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The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/26/2006 10:12:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Since we rarely hear the other side of the debate in this country, I thought I would post some points that call into doubt the equitability of the current global economy. The World Trade Organization and the International Monetary Fund have not accomplished their so-called laudable goals in poor developing countries. All too often these organizations have saddled the world's poorest in debt they can never hope to afford to repay. When they have to default on the loans, they have people come in to implement Structual Alignment Programs (more commonly called SAPs) that basically set that country's economy in favor of those with capital to exploit that region's natural resources and human resources. Here are some points that I thought might be food for thought, and a counterpoint to the propaganda we hear about so-called free trade, neo liberalized economies.


http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/

Here is the counterpoint
http://www.odi.org.uk/speeches/autumn2001/autumn2001_3.html

Edited to make sense... geesh I got my links messed up

But both sides are there

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/26/2006 10:34:48 PM >

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/26/2006 10:26:41 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I hit send before I was done posting links, the first one is pro-wto to show some of the criticisms... here are some scholarly links that support those critiques
The Club Model of Multilateral Cooperation and the World Trade Organization: Problems of Democratic Legitimacy
http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/mm0597.11.html
The Emerging Debate on the Need for a World Environment Organization: A Commentaryhttp://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/152638001570624?cookieSet=1&journalCode=glep


Trading in our sovereignty? - opposition to the new World Trade Organization, a successor to GATT
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n11_v46/ai_15470974

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/26/2006 11:22:03 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Since we rarely hear the other side of the debate in this country, I thought I would post some points that call into doubt the equitability of the current global economy. The World Trade Organization and the International Monetary Fund have not accomplished their so-called laudable goals in poor developing countries. All too often these organizations have saddled the world's poorest in debt they can never hope to afford to repay. When they have to default on the loans, they have people come in to implement Structual Alignment Programs (more commonly called SAPs) that basically set that country's economy in favor of those with capital to exploit that region's natural resources and human resources. Here are some points that I thought might be food for thought, and a counterpoint to the propaganda we hear about so-called free trade, neo liberalized economies.


http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/

Here is the counterpoint
http://www.odi.org.uk/speeches/autumn2001/autumn2001_3.html

Edited to make sense... geesh I got my links messed up

But both sides are there


Julia....

Economic Globalization is perhaps one of my favorite subjects { I've posted it on it many many times}, and I've never seen coherent argument that speaks to greater good of it that makes sense for this country. Furthermore there's NEVER been a poster on this board who could articulately embrace such mythical ideals.



JMHO



- R




_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/26/2006 11:29:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have heard all sorts of rational arguments in favor of global economics, but one of the problems is that part of the reason there is so much poverty is because over population, over population is fueled by fossil fuels. Capitalist economies require growth, which means more markets, more consumers.. it is a vicious cycle. More economic development, more people. More people, less resources. Sooner or later local economies will replace the currrent models, the question is, will we be prepared for the day when we must make our own durable goods? At this point the answer to that question kinda scares me. The consumer mentality of wasting and using things up, designing things to be obsolete or to break also part of the problem.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/26/2006 11:31:22 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/26/2006 11:32:33 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline 		Just a side note -  I read a few days ago that upwards of seventy-five percent of Lebanon’s GDP is used to payback IMF loans.

Since reading that.....before I go to bed each night, I say a prayer that Hamas violently overthrows the western puppet government in that country and tells the IMF to fuck off.



- R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/26/2006 11:38:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		These are some of the coolest files I have ever listened to on the net for people who want to understand how fiat currency works, how capital is created, who controls the capital, how it is used. They can be kinda dry in places, but they are definitely worth a listen to, they probably deserve their own thread http://www.robinupton.com/people/WizardsOfMoney/

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 12:52:41 AM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

These are some of the coolest files I have ever listened to on the net for people who want to understand how fiat currency works, how capital is created, who controls the capital, how it is used. They can be kinda dry in places, but they are definitely worth a listen to, they probably deserve their own thread http://www.robinupton.com/people/WizardsOfMoney/



great post!

Oh and in response to the thread would "global rape" be a reasonable descriptor? How about globalization and world "rape"?  Its a tough call imo.


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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 1:34:56 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Globalization is being seen as an evil in the west because the west's chickens are coming home to roost. Globalization has been happening since European countries set off around the world, first in exploration and then in search of profits. A ship load of cinnamon could make a Tudor merchant rich beyond his wildest dreams so it was worth a gamble to send three ships across the world to exploit the spices found in the east and hope one ship made it back. For centuries the west has been causing poverty around the world in its pursuit of profit and never once did we as a society care for the poverty we caused and cultures we destroyed. Now it is adversely affecting us so it has become an issue. I will believe in our concern about the affects of globalisation when we cease to exploit other countries and cultures for their assets rather than being overly concerned about how it only affects us in the west.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/27/2006 1:37:14 AM >

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 1:58:41 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I found the link pointing to " how money is created " interesting tho' at the risk of being immodest I did have an appreciation of the points being made.
BUT....
Relating currency to Gold, or any other "hard" token, is not without its drawbacks in that , since the quantity of the token is limited it follows that the quantity of money will be limited unless the value of the token is raised. Circular I know, but when the official price of Gold rose over the years to finance World Trade who were one of the main beneficiaries ? Why the jolly old USA.

As a point of fact I believe it was the French who rocked the system, so ultimately allowing Gold and currency to float.
Not sure what they did tho'

Just to add that Meatcleaver has made a valid point. The balance of real economic power is shifting and its painful. Methinks time for a War ?!!?  Sort the rascals out.

Though Meatcleaver never sees any failings in the third world countries. I mean say in the last 50 years or so. Good luck to the Tudor merchant I say. If only the UK had a few more go getters like them instead of impotent experts like me !!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/27/2006 2:07:15 AM >

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 6:41:38 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Globalization is being seen as an evil in the west because the west's chickens are coming home to roost. Globalization has been happening since European countries set off around the world, first in exploration and then in search of profits. A ship load of cinnamon could make a Tudor merchant rich beyond his wildest dreams so it was worth a gamble to send three ships across the world to exploit the spices found in the east and hope one ship made it back. For centuries the west has been causing poverty around the world in its pursuit of profit and never once did we as a society care for the poverty we caused and cultures we destroyed. Now it is adversely affecting us so it has become an issue. I will believe in our concern about the affects of globalisation when we cease to exploit other countries and cultures for their assets rather than being overly concerned about how it only affects us in the west.


My academic discipline makes me care much more than you would think, unless of course you are using the "royal" we.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:21:10 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

there is so much poverty is because over population, over population is fueled by fossil fuels.

Julia,
Great post and wanted to let you know I got a kick over the above part of your post. Over population sparked by fossil fuels? There just aren't that many drive-ins anymore.

quote:

 ship load of cinnamon could make a Tudor merchant rich beyond his wildest dreams so it was worth a gamble to send three ships across the world to exploit the spices found in the east and hope one ship made it back. For centuries the west has been causing poverty around the world in its pursuit of profit and never once did we as a society care for the poverty we caused and cultures we destroyed.

MC,
Is it now "exploitation" to buy goods? During the Xmas shopping season, was I exploiting Target because I found the same product cheaper at Sears and bought it there? Where do you buy anything? I believe it's impossible to apply your standard of non-exploitation and purchase any goods. Gas in your car exploits the people of the middle east. The manufacturers of your clothing used either exploited US union workers, or maybe illegal aliens, or cheap third world labor. Going to the food market is the worst example of exploitation. Gone are most of the family farms, so the exploitation is at the grower, picker or harvester, truck driver. 

Maybe it would help if you define "exploitation". Is accepting a price exploitation? Was there some barrier or physical impediment preventing that source of cinnamon from building boats and taking their product to Europe? Why was the decision made to sell to the ship captain exploitation?

Why is the decision made by a country by it's leaders currently called exploitation? Would you remove all decision making from these people because you, or some world wide authority determine it's "for their own good"? Where does that process stop? 

You've got to help me out here. Are you for one world government where one person or group of people establish the price of goods and the pay-scale for all the workers? Who would you trust with that power?

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:37:07 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Julia,
Great post and wanted to let you know I got a kick over the above part of your post. Over population sparked by fossil fuels? There just aren't that many drive-ins anymore.


I did not see why this statement was humorous to you. I thought I would include  more detailed links that show how global trade and advances in medicine have increased populations all over the world, these are directly related to the use of fossils.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html

http://dieoff.org/

The planet cannot sustain the  United States lifestyle globally. If India and China demand the same standards of living that we have (which their demand for oil is growing exponentially) then when fossils become ever harder to come by many people will starve globally.

The growing of agricultural products, the powering of cities, medicines, are all related to fossils

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/27/2006 7:39:32 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:44:11 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Relating currency to Gold, or any other "hard" token, is not without its drawbacks in that , since the quantity of the token is limited it follows that the quantity of money will be limited unless the value of the token is raised. Circular I know, but when the official price of Gold rose over the years to finance World Trade who were one of the main beneficiaries ? Why the jolly old USA.


My point is not just about the US economy and what is good for my people in the United States. Many countries all over the world have backed their currency with the US dollar, pegging it to our dollar because of speculators that have crashed the values of national currencies. They have to stablize their currency by pegging it to our dollar because our dollar is seen as "strong".

There were talks between Saddam and other countries to peg his oil against other currencies.. an example of what I am talking about that has actually led to wars... link provided

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:45:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

MC,
Is it now "exploitation" to buy goods?



In the process of western expansion, western governments have and still do, force countries to trade with the west on the west's terms. The west has even manufactured governments and countries in order to exploit assets from a particular region. The middle east is a prime example, where countries and governments were created in the interests of the west rather than the indigenous peoples.

Globalisation is now becoming an issue in the west because the geo-political tables are being turned. With the rise of China and India the west can envisage a future where it is no longer the boss and can no longer call the tune. Concern is mounting because China is not only willing to out bid the west for oil but is happy not to involve itself in the internal politics of other countries and so is a more attractive customer than the west. Many countries can manufacture products cheaper than the west and even in hi-tech, the west can envisage a day when it won't have the monopoly.

The problem of globalisation, is that the world doesn't have enough resources for everyone but this has never been the concern of the west or has never been until now, when the west is finding itself in a position where it is struggling compete.

To answer Juliaocean's point

My academic discipline makes me care much more than you would think, unless of course you are using the "royal" we.
 
Since universal suffrage in the west, western electorates have consistently voted for short term self interest. That doesn't mean that there aren't individuals that are concerned but it shows in general as a culture, we have not been concerned.


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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:46:52 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

These are some of the coolest files I have ever listened to on the net for people who want to understand how fiat currency works, how capital is created, who controls the capital, how it is used. They can be kinda dry in places, but they are definitely worth a listen to, they probably deserve their own thread http://www.robinupton.com/people/WizardsOfMoney/



great post!

Oh and in response to the thread would "global rape" be a reasonable descriptor? How about globalization and world "rape"?  Its a tough call imo.



Tough call indeed. We are all connected after all, especially since colonial times (as meatcleaver pointed out). Our fate rests in each other's hands... action/reaction...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:48:52 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just had a look at the GATT link. I wonder how many Americans know that the US administration is not overly fastidious in maintaining GATT agreements. eg within the last year massive, and "illegal" tariffs were applied to the import of steel !!

Didn't seem to upset Tony Blair much, at least not in public.

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:53:45 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

To answer Juliaocean's point

My academic discipline makes me care much more than you would think, unless of course you are using the "royal" we.
 
Since universal suffrage in the west, western electorates have consistently voted for short term self interest. That doesn't mean that there aren't individuals that are concerned but it shows in general as a culture, we have not been concerned.


I would definitely agree with that. The United States on the one hand imports more than it exports from all over the world, we have our soldiers all over the world, and we expect people all over the world to move out of our way. But culturally we are still very isolationist, have little understanding of what is happening in other places unless we invade them, and even then it is a slanted knowledge because most of us are not multi-lingual and capable of talking to other people in other parts of the world.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 7:57:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Just had a look at the GATT link. I wonder how many Americans know that the US administration is not overly fastidious in maintaining GATT agreements. eg within the last year massive, and "illegal" tariffs were applied to the import of steel !!

Didn't seem to upset Tony Blair much, at least not in public.


We also tried to tariff canadian lumber against the WTO rules and I believe against NAFTA too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-Canada_softwood_lumber_dispute

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 8:00:12 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Why is the decision made by a country by it's leaders currently called exploitation? Would you remove all decision making from these people because you, or some world wide authority determine it's "for their own good"? Where does that process stop? 

You've got to help me out here. Are you for one world government where one person or group of people establish the price of goods and the pay-scale for all the workers? Who would you trust with that power?


Up until now the US has been one of the most vocal governments for free trade but is unwilling to allow free trade when it adversely affects the US. This shows something of an inconsistency that infects all western governments. The west is very good at talking the talk but not walking the walk. The west dumps produce on the third world but doesn't allow the third world to dump products on the west. Today, the west is usually a little more subtle than sending gunboats to make a point but pressure there is from the west and it's a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'. GATT is a western invention but now we complain about it because at times it points to the west to being the villain.

_____________________________

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RE: The Problems With Globalization and World Trade - 12/27/2006 8:19:01 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		With regard to the "strong" dollar, I believe that is a thing of the past. In international terms the dollar is "weak" In fact Japan , definately,  and I think China have so many dollar denominated assets in the reserves that they have a powerful economic grip on the USA.

Its not in their interest to "crash" the dollar but they could engineer reductions by selling those assets, and as the dollar declines buy even more US "hard" assets. Property etc.

Pegging their currency to the dollar maintains their trade competitiveness but interest rates rising in the US to offset the dollar decline should only make any recession worse.

Thats my understanding anyway, Could be wrong to quote I think Synergy.

There is NO substitute for runnig economies on REAL wealth production. ie "hard" trade

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