Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope

Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (Full Version)

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fireflyred -> Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/26/2006 11:31:24 PM)
My male Dom insists that if I acted more like a slave he would be able to be a Dom again. his ex was kinda nuts and manipulative. My ex husband was physically abusive. We got into a pretty gnarly physical fight on xmas. Does anyone believe a 24/7 relationship could work if we both work at home together and are so busy it's not even funny. Has anyone ever trained a slave through waiting for her to train herself. I am not confused and victimized and deluded. i provoke some things due to a passive aggressive, fearing failure nature. I don't think physical altercations are ever unavoidable, but how can I help him to see that a) I need his help in not being self-destructive anymore, b) that I can't act like a slave with no return while he finds his Dom-ness again. c) that my assertion is not selfishness and I can't just get over my limits like ! that. d) the limits that I maintain are not out of a persistence in comparing the past to the now. the past is repeating itself, but I don't control the whole fucking world and the negativity from his past repeats itself because of his contribution as well as mine. e) my resistance isn't a power move, it's a fear that I need addressed, and that it's on me if he wants it to change by his schedule, it’s on me on my schedule or it’s on him if he wants to adjust it to his. f) I don't enjoy the past relationships i've had, and he doesn't need to reenact them to keep me. It may be something I in some way provoke, but I wasn't happy, thus, the end of those relationships. I need the negativity I carried over to be addressed and I needed to be guided away from it, not critisized for it and he need not be defeated by it. He's waiting for me to stop perceiving him as being abusive like my ex, and I'm waiting for him to stop actually acting like him. I'm not crazy and it's not all misperception. A percentage of perception may be false, but not all. He's waiting for me to act compliant to him, and I'm waiting for him to tell me why the fuck that would benefit me at all. I'm promiscuous, but i think that's been out of retaliation against my partners in the past, and insecurity, not an actual need to be worthless and humiliated and used. And he feels insult or insecurity and confusion when i’m not sucking his dick more than 3 or 4 times a day, and fucking him at his beck and call. I’m into it. I am. Our sex is incredible, but we’re both working, or atleast trying to, and I can’t interupt him if I have any need other than sex, but he can interupt me when he has any need at all. I don’t see how I’m benifiting from this “discipline.” I know there's problems I don't need those pointed out. I need solutions. I can take responsibility for my withdrawing sexually, being unreasonably defiant (by unreasonable I mean, I don't really have a reason when I say no sometimes, I just do, but I'm not consciously trying to say ha ha you can't make me >P ) I can take responsibility for being stubborn, close minded, or unenthusiastic, unrealistic, and/or selfish. But i know that it's not all on me. And when I make an effort to figure out why I act these ways and change by behavior accordingly he insists I’m acting fake, that somethings up, or that he doesn’t buy it. I’m trying to act as if, in order to get rid of my incorrect attitudes through creating an environment where I’m not acting on them or feeding them until they go away. Then he blows up or gets depressed about how it was in the beginning when i couldn’t get enough of him, and i was all over him sexually, jumping to please him, and I remember him accepting me for the level of submission I’d already achieved and not pressuring me and pointing out often the ways in which i wasn’t a slave. I'm not going to hinder my personal growth towards maturity and loving, and being submissive just because my Master won't match my rate of progress. But I don't think he gives a damn about his contribution to the distance that's growing between us because he feels wronged by my "lack of compliance" and refuses to look inward until I do. When we argue he often interrupts by actually saying "you didn't let me finish," though I did, or "i have to interrupt you" and when I painstakingly let him go on and on again after he interrupts me for the billionth time, and then I comment, he tells me that I never just listen, I always have to challenge him or point out that he's responsible too, and that I'm not focusing at all on my faults and how to change them. Problem is, I am aware and i do see that I contribute to problems, and that relationships require compromise and negotiations. And that doesn’t mean vanilla and that doesn’t mean equality or that he will now be sexually refused indefinately ha ha! I don't change over night and I can see that my character defects do burden Him, and I'm sorry for that and I actively remind myself where my responsibility lies. But I also see where it ends. And to place the stipulation that he will only reward me for my service once it's absolute seems like just, asshole-like. And I doubt he actually means it, because he doesn’t have the time. I’ve never done D/S before, though I am open to it, I’m open to the ideals that have been described to me at places like bestslavetraining.com and that domain with cuffs in the title, I can’t recall right now. I don’t think those site portray the do all and end all every single detail must compare, but it’s a model atleast, I don’t really have any others. I think that my Master veiws the benefit of MS relationships as one person taking the lead to prevent the nagging an unhappiness that results from a lack of enforced compromise and negotiation in vanilla. he sees vanilla as being completely non sexual and women dominated, and I insist that the sexual withdrawel in vanilla relationships is often caused by a lack of give and take and unrealistic expectations. Tell me, does he have the right to feel repressed for getting 3 bj’s and 2 fucks when he wanted 5 bj’s 3 fucks and fucking me in the ass. all in one day. I want the fucking house cleaned. i want his attention, and i want to be able to say, no, I don’t feel like sucking you off, I’m trying to concentrate on work right now, and everytime I get going you get horny and I never get shit done. His response is usually: I know, you don’t ever get shit done, but you could get this bj done, so if you aren’t doing anything anyways, why turn me down. AHHHHHHHHHH The past few days I've pointed it out to him when he says, the dog keeps shitting in the kitchen, we need to try to work on training him. And I said, "you mean me." or the laundry is really piling up, we need to do something about that, and I said, "you mean I do." and he bashfully said, yeah, I guess that is what I meant. And it’s like hahaha there’s not just a problem with you actually correcting the we with you, there’s a problem in it always being all on me, and you just reaping the benefits of blow jobs and smiles all day. Well the house is a mess, he can't find anything, and he won't look for it, or tell me how he wants things organized, for months he's been complaining that he can never find anything, and for months I've been telling him that he makes no effort towards putting things away so I do and if he wants to know where his shit is then he can ask or help in it's putting it away. When he leaves messes I give up too. he see’s it as that when i leave messes he does too and I’m screaming great so we both have a problem with making excuses based on what the other person is doing but why do I have to change, and then wait to see if that encourages you to do the same. What would you say to him, in a mature, constructive non-fuck you dude way. or am I wrong. be specific in who you are addressing since we will both review the responses, since I'm about to show him what I posted.

RedSavageSlave -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 3:05:30 AM)
It sounds like the both of you would do well with some couple's counselling on how to talk to each other. It sounds like you would benefit from some counselling on your own for your past abuse issues. It sounds like the two of you should sit down and decide what exactly it is you are each looking for in a D/s relationship. Then you should decide if you each fit the need of the other. From this brief look into your life as well as the advertisement post listed in the General forum, you two have alot to learn about each other and how to communicate. Good luck to you both~

eyesopened -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 3:45:15 AM)
Every construction project begins with a foundation. The foundation must be strong enough to support the structure as well as its contents. You have to back and ask yourself what the foundation of the relationship is. In my experience sex is not a strong enough foundation to support more than a simple structure. i agree with RedSavageSlave that counselling for your past abuse issues would be a huge benefit to you.

Squeakers -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 4:15:27 AM)
I am going to be harsh so if it's going to bother anyone stop here. A submissive or a slave must have a bit of self control. It appears to me through your profile and post, that you want him to control you completely but are not willing to work with him on it. Yes control can be given, but only as much as you are going to allow. For example, if you were to say, "Master my pussy is yours to do what you want with" then never allow sex, what's the point. The way I see control in a healthy D/s relationship is mental not physical. If you have given him control he shouldn't have to use force to obtain that control. I empathize with the fact that you were abused. It's never an easy thing to deal with. Because past abuse can surface in a relationship it is very important to deal with it but that is something you have to deal with. In dealing with my own abuse, I sought professional help and learned ways deal with those issues. Yes, sometimes even after all these years, the sadness, fustration and anger surface and my partner is supportive but if I got to a point where I felt self destructive or I was taking the feelings I have out on him---I sincerely would drag my ass back for professional help. The cleaning the house thing got to me. If the dog is shitting on the floor, clean it or train the dog. What is being accomplished when he says "we need to train the dog" and you retort with, "you mean me." This whole argument 'sounds' so vanilla. It's about control that you stated in my profile that you have given up. What the hell is this "you mean me" crap? If you gave up control, the right answer should be, "yes Sir, the dog needs to be trained and I will begin working on that." If you don't know how a dog should be trained, then state it. "Yes Master, the dog needs to be trained but I am not sure how to go about it, what would you suggest or can you assist me with training him?" If the house needs to be organized, do it. I'm sure if you didn't organize it correctly he'd let you know or ask. "Master is there any way you want things organized or Master where would you like me to put your---golf clubs or sneakers or whatever..." Any relationship vanilla or otherwise is an exchange and from the sounds of it you desire a power exchange and if that is the case why is it a power struggle? Give and take. For me personally, no I wouldn't want to clean up messes he is making--leaving the ketchup out, leaving dirty socks around or whatever---because he's an adult and I work full time. If he did, I'd take care of it, but I might say, "Master, I have something I'd like to discuss. I work all day and although I like serving you, sometimes when I come home and find your dirty clothes all over the place and the mess on the counter where you made a sandwich, I get a little annoyed because I have to clean it up in addition to other things I need to do and it cuts into the time I would rather spend with you. Would you mind taking care of this for me?" I know in my personal relationship---this would not be an issue. He'd clean up after himself and if I did have an issue with something we'd discuss it like adults and come to a compromise. First you need to take responsibility for your own actions. Even though we would love to think a Dom has complete control over our actions, feelings and thoughts that to me is bullshit. Yes he can attempt correct negative behavior, but it all falls upon you. For example, a man goes out and robs a bank and goes to jail as punishment for his action. There he is given an opportunity to correct his negative behavior. If he gets out and goes and robs another bank, who is ultimately responsible for that action? My suggestion sincerely, is get some professional help in dealing with your abuse and if he is struggling with problems with his past relationship, he too should seek some help---it doesn't mean you are crazy to seek this sort of help. Secondly, give and take. Work together not against each other.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 5:14:11 AM)
I'm with the counseling, but more so I think you're both still too hurt to be ready for a solid relationship with anyone right now. His blaming you for not being who he is is pointless and destructive, and your defensiveness and levels of expectations are also destructive as well as unrealistic at this time. You're both sniping and not working together. I think you need ground rules for your ground rules here and you both need to sit down and decide what they will be together. If you can't even work together to do that much- it might be a sign that this just isn't going to work.

Voltare -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 5:26:41 AM)
Wow. firefly, I read your post here, on insecurity, and in the General area. It seems like you have a lot of energy, and you're not sure where it's all supposed to go. If this is an example of how you feel normally, coupled with the symptoms you describe yourself (difficulty with self-control, strong mood swings, etc) there's a good chance you have either hyperactive or an obsessive-compulsive type of . Neither are bad, both can controlled, but you need to seriously consider seeing a psychiatrist; if anything for the proper type of medication. Until you can get a good grip on yourself, you're going to find it nearly impossible for anyone else to do so. You'll find that relationships are... well, boring when things are going alright. It can be hard to adjust to a situation where there's stability and calm when you've lived such a turbulant life. It can be even harder to accept someone cares about you, for who you are. But none of that can happen if you're leaping from giddy heights to miserable lows in the span of a minute. It might also be worth your while to start running. It'll help keep you in shape, settle your mind, and give some structure to your day. Timing yourself when you do it will give you a goal to set and break each time, and when you're finished with a run and showered up, you'll feel like a new woman - without a lot of that extra energy that you feel now. Really, any activity that requires your full mental and physical attention for a longer (more than 30 minutes) period of time will do the trick. Good luck, Stephan

julietsierra -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 5:53:26 AM)
Ok.. You asked for constructive suggestions, so here goes: To the both of you: Positive Communication 101: You get an egg timer. The person with the complaint has 5 minutes to get it out in the open. Everything you talk about begins with "I feel..." and you can only talk about how you feel - not what the other person needs to do. This means you'd better be thinking precisely what you want to say with no name calling. 5 minutes goes by fast in the heat of the moment. At the end of the 5 minutes, you stop. Nothing more is said. The person to whom the complaint was addressed must begin with these words (seriously): "What I hear you saying is... " and then summarize what that person heard. The person doing the summarizing ends with "is that what I heard you saying?" Yes or no is the appropriate answer with only a few minutes for clarification for exactly what was misunderstood. Make sure that at least the initial information you're both working from is understood by both parties. Then the timer is reset. The person to whom the complaint was addressed has 5 minutes to state how he or she sees the problem. No name calling by either party is allowed - at all!!. At either the end of the 5 minutes, the original person responds "What I hear you saying is..., '' summarizes, and ends with "Is that what I heard you're saying?" Clarifications are made for misunderstandings of the message and the timer is reset. The process continues until either one of you is angry and starts to not abide by the rules or the timer. At that point, you both take time out and move away from each other and the discussion at hand. NOTHING about what you're complaining about gets discussed until you both can do this calmly again. The process feels awkward and ridiculous, but it's important. Neither of you know how to communicate with each other and interruptions are usually indications that instead of really listening to each other, you are really just using whatever time you have in between speaking to formulate your defense against whatever you initially heard in the argument. Summarizing what the other person said means you have to actually listen to what's being said instead of coming up with your defensive remarks - on both side of the D/s fence. To the submissive: An interesting quandry you've placed this man in your life in! Doesn't it occur to you that you are controlling the relationship? (NOT saying the dominant is weak - quite the opposite.) You make darn sure everyone is aware of your past abuse. You do nothing to remedy the damage that has caused in your life and then you turn all responsibility for taking care of that to your dominant. Except that when he does handle things in ways that attempt to not activate issues of your past abuse, you accuse him of somehow being abusive because he WON'T take control. You accuse him of acting like your ex (at this point, it's almost like you NEED him to act like your ex, so you can say everything you EVER wanted to say to your ex, but couldn't - even if he isn't doing these things.) You call him names, you disrespect him, you treat him as if he were garbage, and unless the physical fight you are talking about occurred between you and your ex, you HIT him!!! (sound familiar by chance to anything you might have experienced in another relationship?) And you are wondering why he doesn't take control? Sometimes, taking control means you have to step back and let the other person go through her experiences until she's dealt with the past stuff. That past stuff is really not his responsibility, even though you are making it his responsibility. He is not a therapist. He is a man. He is a dominant man, but in case you've forgotten, he's the man you want in your life. You are passive aggressive by your own admission. Well, just in case you aren't aware, the way to deal with passive aggressiveness is to not allow it to happen in the first place. If he reacts to that passive aggressiveness, he's allowing it to have an effect. The only way to react is to call you on it each and every single time it happens or to ignore it and not react at all. The latter is the harder of the two to manage. I don't mean ignore it as if it doesn't happen, but to not rise to the bait. If he said the floor needs cleaning and you say "oh, you mean me" then saying something will begin the fight. Saying nothing and having you figure out on your own that yes indeed he meant you, may make you angry, but your PA remarks have lost their power. That's how you disarm a PA person. Eventually, you are either walking around in filth or you're cleaning the floor. Personally, I'd be saying "yes, I mean you" and be done with it, but your over the top reactions have pretty much stopped him from saying much of anything. Either way, it's a long hard road. To your question regarding "has anyone ever trained a slave through waiting for her to train herself." the answer to that is not a yes or no answer, but an awareness on your part that needs to happen regarding training. Training can occur in lots of ways. One way - the way it seems you want - is for someone to do all the thinking and then demand outcomes of someone else. It requires nothing of the person upon who the demand has been placed except compliance. However, there is another way - one in which, with your background, I'd say from a dominant's perspective, would be better, since you have much that you have to overcome and that what you have to overcome is work that you have to do on your own - either through counselling, as has been advised or through some dedicated work by you on you. Personally, I think it is blatantly apparent that you working on you is NOT working, but at any rate. That other way is to allow you to go along, do what you do, and he can make corrections to your behavior. It is also one in which will not activate your passive aggressiveness because in effect, YOU are choosing to submit instead of being FORCED to submit - which, to many dominant type people, is what they want anyway. Admittedly, for you, this is the harder way to go. It's so much easier to do what someone wants just because they want it and have said so. However, for YOU to decide it's what you want; for YOU to decide that when he says the house needs organized, it means you are organizing the house, and for YOU to stop fighting his every order along the way (because those comments he's making about the dog and the house ARE orders - even if they are said nicely) is much harder work, but more rewarding since in the end, this IS a D/s relationship. You don't get to choose how he dominates. You only get to choose to submit - or not. He is giving you the chance, over and over again, to choose your path, and for some reason, you are pissed because you finally have the choice. Conversely, he is making choices as to how he dominates - even if you don't like them. Oh, and I am having the hardest time with "his ex was kinda nuts and manipulative." You mean to tell me that all these arguments and sideways comments and passive aggressive crap isn't?! You seriously need to rethink how you're treating this man!! Even in a vanilla relationship, he would deserve better!! To the dominant: I'd say either you are dominating her or you aren't. There is no middle ground. Besides, comments like "if you acted more like a slave, I'd be able to Dom again" only serve to a) confirm her suspicions that you are not dominating her, b) that perhaps you can't, and c) that in effect, she is in control. And all that does is stir her up even more. Set some limits and stand by them. And frankly, if she continues to act in this manner, doesn't get some professional help for her past abuse issues, etc, you might need to consider just how much of her badgering you're going to put up with. If you are choosing to not do things because it something in YOUR past relationship needs work, then get yourself some help as well. Past relationships have significant impact on present ones, and just as you're not responsible for her past relationship, neither is she responsible for yours. I can tell you that this would be beyond intolerable here. And I wouldn't receive any sort of punishment for my behavior. He'd simply say "you don't want to submit?" shrug, and he'd be gone. No reason to be angry - it just wouldn't be the right relationship - regardless of how he felt about me. If you are going to dominate her, the first thing you're going to have to do is set some immutable boundaries for yourself. This is what you expect, and if it doesn't happen, then that's it...then communicate that to her and be done with it. You have to be ready to act on what boundaries you set for yourself. Those boundaries should also consist of what behavior from her you're going to accept and not accept. Her past abuse is absolutely no reason for you to accept the behavior she's described here. And if you don't accept that behavior, you're going to have to come to some solid decisions as to what you're going to do if they happen - and then stick to that as well. To the both of you: If spending every waking hour together is too much, you might need to think about creating some space. Have one of you get a job outside of the house or something. Set hours of work vs hours of "home life" and one can't cross the other. Set up time in between where you both are doing individual hobbies or activities so that you can keep a sense of perspective regarding your relationship. Get help if you need to. But you're going to have to do some work to protect that relationship if it's something you both feel is important. juliet

onestandingstill -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 7:20:02 AM)
To me, in a nut shell it seems like you fight the current and swim upstream. It's like you fear that if you let go and let his leadership flow you'll be swallowed by some big whale chasing you. It sounds to me like you have notions of what YOU want your training to be like and what YOU want as the rules of the house and buck his authority constantly. Even a formidable dam that keeps getting sanded down and worn away will eventually burst. Your repeated reactions to his asserting control has him walking around on egg shells not knowing what face of yours you'll present next. Also as a slave you should be available to give him head and fuck him all day if that's what he desires. You gave yourself to him for HIS PLEASURE. You also are supposed to RESPECT him. If you don't respect him and trust his judgement to be his slave will be toxic for you both. In my 24/7 relationship I was working full time, playing with him, and cleaning the house after he fell asleep so as not to ignore him when he wanted my attention, cooking, doing laundery, entertaining his friends, and going out often in the public BDSM community. You just have to set a schedule for yourself to include what needs to be done. Women have been good home makers and sex partners for eons. It can be done. There is a comfortable way to accomplish what he desires of you. If you stop putting so much time and effort into resisting him you'll have more time to please him. Once you stop resisting his control if the house is messy he will see it and it's up to him to decide how your time is best spent. If he starts complaining the house is messy ask him what he would like you to do about it. If he's deciding how your time is spent the responsibility for the condition of the house belongs to him. He should institute a cleaning schedule for you to do things in the time frames he requires. I honestly think if you give up your control, clean the slate of the war for control, ask him what he suggests to be able to accomplish what's important to him, and allow him to decide what is important for you to do or not that you'll have a better chance of both of you being happy and more fulfilled. suzanne

afeathr -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 7:21:08 AM)
As always, in these types of posts, we are only getting one side of the story. I agree with a lot of the advice given here - there are some really excellent suggestions - however I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone that we have no idea what is really going on here, and though I suspect that the problem is the OP and not the Dom, some of the comments about things that the Dom has said should be taken with a grain of salt (no offense to the OP). I only say this to prevent further attempts to read more into this than it really is - if that's possible. To the OP: Seek counseling - include your Dom in the counseling - and do exactly what the counselor recommends.

fireflyred -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 7:24:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Ok.. You asked for constructive suggestions, so here goes: To the both of you: Positive Communication 101: ... I completely agree however, conversations of that structure are threatening or stupid to him, structuring by a very similar system has been shut down. why do we both get five minutes if he's the Dom why are we even talking about it. I don't know when I'm going on and on or when I'm not given a chance to state my side of things. But when suggesting that we clarify and limit our excessiveness, that is something too vanilla and "this is why BDSM is necessary" while I'm left thinking "What about consent?" which i'll further explain momentarily quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra To the submissive: An interesting quandry you've placed this man in your life in! Doesn't it occur to you that you are controlling the relationship? (NOT saying the dominant is weak - quite the opposite.) You make darn sure everyone is aware of your past abuse. You do nothing to remedy the damage that has caused in your life and then you turn all responsibility for taking care of that to your dominant. Except that when he does handle things in ways that attempt to not activate issues of your past abuse, you accuse him of somehow being abusive because he WON'T take control. You accuse him of acting like your ex (at this point, it's almost like you NEED him to act like your ex, so you can say everything you EVER wanted to say to your ex, but couldn't - even if he isn't doing these things.) You call him names, you disrespect him, you treat him as if he were garbage, and unless the physical fight you are talking about occurred between you and your ex, you HIT him!!! (sound familiar by chance to anything you might have experienced in another relationship?) wh-wh-wh-what?!!! when he does attempt to handle things in a way that is sensitive to any issues i brought on from my past, they are usually quite affective, and we fall back in sync for a few days. I don't tell him he's abusive, and I said everything I ever wanted to say to my ex and I have nothing more to say to him because i'm not gonna play nee-ner nee-ner yr in jail so imma talk shit like it's productive somehow. I HAVE NEVER CALLED HIM NAMES, I realize and take resposibility for any disrespect I show him and it's never out of an "i'll show him/teach him" I don't disrespect him out of retailiation or attempting to humiliate him EVER. I wish he had more confidence in himself and his worth actually. I'm not perfect, I get frustrated, or don't realize, but I can say with a striaght face and all the integrity I possess that I don't disrespect my Master on any concious vengful or power-move goal oriented attitude or mind set EVER. And I listen to him when he feels there's been disrespect and I try to keep myself in check. It's important to me to not use that sort of thing as a weapon or enable it to distance us. How do I treat him like garbage again. I wait and wait and wait and when he wants a blow job I'm on my knees and other than that, I just wait. And as for the physical fight, um no, I did not strike out at him like some pyscho bitch with misplaced anger. He struck me first, and over and over again, and yes, I ripped his shirt off, in an attempt to hold him closer to me to lessen the opportunity for momentum, and I scratched his stomach and his neck and later on as he pinned me to the bed screaming that i needed to be spanked, while I sobbed safeword and he said he'd safeword me, I scratched him across his back and pushed my thumb into his closed eye, kicking in defense as this went on for five minutes or so, defeated as I lay across the bed and covered my face and sobbed, he caned me, across the stomach, and I didn't even breathe I thought I would die it hurt so bad and he said "See, you bitch, you can't even feel anything." as I thought to myself I wish, and then shreiked in agony, while he taunted me and lashed out even more because now the cops were coming. I think the mark will scar, ah the luck of the irish. And what were we argueing about. Ask him. I was acting weird. He kept hearing my collar jingle everytime he turned back to face the computer and he thought my friend and I were whispering behind his back. when in fact, I was just being a spaz and bobbing my head up and down to music, and as he exploded, again, in paranoid anger in front of her, I yelled at him to shut up, hoping that he would save face in front of her by either shutting up or telling her to leave. quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra That past stuff is really not his responsibility, even though you are making it his responsibility. He is not a therapist. He is a man. He is a dominant man, but in case you've forgotten, he's the man you want in your life. quote: not at all I completely distinguish between the two and have overcome limit after limit after limit that I thought I'd have, just through feeling owned and accepted, that's gone, I'm constantly critisized, I don't know what I did, I've asked him what he thought changed and all he says is I don't know but you changed. and each time we agree to a fresh start I find myself fucking up in some unrecallable way. I know that I am in control of the relationship, yes, and I hate the feeling, but I am given, ZERO instruction ZERO other that, suck my dick and quit saying you are bored. I am bored. I could entertain/amuse myself but when i do try to productively work I later find out how irrelevent he thought what i accomplished was or he is put upon by the fact that I didn't sit under his desk and suck him off all day. I don't think any one could possibly spend their efforts completely and totally dictating permission and/or instruction for every minute thing that I am to do with myself, maddening, what's the point? you wouldn't have time for yourself. THe last thing I'm interested in doing is burdening him, but when he tells me he wants a slave, leaves that loosely defined, and then exasperatedly tells me how he misses how I used to be, I'm lost. He used to offer advice, direction, set goals for me to accomplish for myself, and now I only hear about how unenthusiastic I am. It's funny because only days ago I sat with hiim while he watched video clips that he'd captured onto our computer of me talking about what I was dying to explore and how much fun I had when he spanked me/tied me up/ etc... I was monologuing my fantasies, admitting to my weaknesses, telling how excited I was about the plan he'd devised to direct me towards seeing the purpose of discontinuing some negative behaviors, how patience, and neediness are an issue and how much I looked forward to excersises such as holding a coin up agianst the wall for whatever period of time he deemed necessary. I've repeatedly expressed an interest in getting spanked more, doing more bondage, and more seemingly "pointless" or "trivial" tasks of servetude to help me to relax and find serenity in patience and not being in control. And he got all turned on and was saying oh yeah, I totally forgot about all that, damn, you want it so bad, alright, lets do this, and I'm stoked, and then, the fed ex guy at the door, the new blu ray computer came, oh well, so much for that. I have sought counseling, not extensively, that's true, I read a lot and I took a lot of the articles I've read to heart about how seeing yourself as a victim allows the cycle to continue etc...and I've taken several steps towards owning up to my end of things. I'm not perfect, by no means, and I would love to counsel more, I would. quote: If he said the floor needs cleaning and you say "oh, you mean me" then saying something will begin the fight. Saying nothing and having you figure out on your own that yes indeed he meant you, may make you angry, but your PA remarks have lost their power. That's how you disarm a PA person. Eventually, you are either walking around in filth or you're cleaning the floor. Personally, I'd be saying "yes, I mean you" and be done with it, but your over the top reactions have pretty much stopped him from saying much of anything. Either way, it's a long hard road. the point i was making their was about how he muses about "we" and "us" working on the (fill in the blank) when really he means that I will, because it isn't blowjobs for him and he won't be bothered. if that's how things are gonna be, neato. then tell me I'm gonna do it instead of talking all sorts of bullshit about how We are gonna get through the gruntwork when it's me who will do the work and him who will feel better now that WE've fixed the problem. quote: To your question regarding "has anyone ever trained a slave through waiting for her to train herself." the answer to that is not a yes or no answer, but an awareness on your part that needs to happen regarding training. Training can occur in lots of ways. One way - the way it seems you want - is for someone to do all the thinking and then demand outcomes of someone else. It requires nothing of the person upon who the demand has been placed except compliance. actually, I participate very much so, I just see it as topping from the bottom to tell him I'm going to hold a coin agianst the wall with my nose to practice patience. kind of silly. he never ever needs or directs me into anything but oral sex. What you said would all work great if one fucking thing was put before me that was for the purpose of corecting my attitude and not just enabling his laziness. I'm already good at enabling people so that they can go on about their misery convieniently and with someone to place any blame or complaint agianst, but see, that's what i'm trying to move away from quote: Oh, and I am having the hardest time with "his ex was kinda nuts and manipulative." You mean to tell me that all these arguments and sideways comments and passive aggressive crap isn't?! You seriously need to rethink how you're treating this man!! Even in a vanilla relationship, he would deserve better!! He'd be the first one to tell you about how much she fucked his head up. He reveils in calling me by her name in a caustic cutting tone everytime I raise a complaint or question or beg him to just clarify. I'm comply, I just want to comply because I like serving you and in the future I will come to the same conclusion as you and spare you the work if you explain why, I'm not questioning, only curious, and I'm sorry. quote: To the both of you: If spending every waking hour together is too much, you might need to think about creating some space. Have one of you get a job outside of the house or something. Set hours of work vs hours of "home life" and one can't cross the other. Set up time in between where you both are doing individual hobbies or activities so that you can keep a sense of perspective regarding your relationship. Get help if you need to. But you're going to have to do some work to protect that relationship if it's something you both feel is important. Thank you Juliet. I may have countered you often but I took to heart what applied and will do everything I can with it. As well as what all the other posters have said. I can be wrong. I know I'm confused so I'm certainly not going to insist that I'm right.

RedSavageSlave -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 7:28:31 AM)
OK..its time to ask yourself two things: ...Why are you still with him? ...What are you getting out of this relationship? Perhaps its time for you to move on to something else?

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 7:41:36 AM)
A M/s relationship is a mutual one. Both have to be willing to make it work to make it work. You both have alot of prior issues that haven't been dealt with and are projecting on each other. This is a very unhealthy relationship. Counseling is good if you both are willing to make it work.

BeautifulRacket -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 9:40:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fireflyred I don't think physical altercations are ever unavoidable, What do you mean by this? Just what it says - that you can never avoid a physical fight in a relationship? If so, I'd suggest working on that false belief. Whoever is getting physical (you, him, both) needs to learn some anger management/coping/fighting fair techniques because getting physical certainly IS avoidable. It's as easy and as hard as you just don't touch the other person. When my husband gets really angry, he counts from 10 to 1 over and over until he's calm enough to proceed. We've both walked away (though we agree that works best when we say, "I need some time to calm down, and I'll come back when that's happened,") so we don't say/do things we regret. I stop talking and focus on breathing. Some sit on their hands. My point is, there are tons of techniques, and you need to practice until you find things that work for you, share them with your partner, then do them. I've been furious enough to get physical, but I've never touched another in anger, and no one has done it to me, and that's not uncommon, so it's definitely unavoidable. There are lots of great sites, books and professionals who deal with anger management, conflict and fighting fair. John Gottman's research and books spoke to my husband and I (we like research/science-based stuff, and he's been able to predict the success/failure of LTRs with 90+ percent accuracy), and I believe just about everyone can take something valuable away from them (plus, many libraries carry them, so there's no investment in seeing what they have to offer), but there are a ton of other resources out there. I don't have much else to contribute right now other than my observation that it'd be really difficult, if not impossible, for me to be disciplined if my partner (Dom, sub, or whatever) showed a complete lack of discipline. In a D/s or M/s relationship, I think it's especially important for the Top to lead by example. I'm not sure if I could submit and be disciplined with someone who didn't respect my time and effort - that extends to professional, domestic work, and just about everything else. We're all human, and lord knows I'm hardly the most disciplined person, which might lower my "Dommely quotient" in some eyes, but I do try very hard and never take another's time/efforts for granted. Messing with another's livelihood, or even something that's of great value to me like domestic duties, because I'm horny many times a day isn't an option for me personally - I'm a strong, independent person, and, gee, I can even take care of my own needs most of the time (when I'm really sick or hurting, all bets are off)! I guess I'd have a very hard time viewing someone who seemingly couldn't fend for themselves as undesireable to submit to; I'd want to submit to someone who was generally very strong, self-sufficient, and able to take care of the entire household very well, should the need arise. I'd need someone I could look up to and share an immense amount of respect with (it has to go both ways in any loving relationship of mine). A Dom who doesn't help himself by allowing me to work well, give some instructions for organizing his stuff so he can find it (though I might just do it and then show him where everything is, perhaps even labelling as a reminder for both of us), or recognize there are limits to what one person can do in a day/week and pitch in when necessary so things run smoothly? No thanks.

julietsierra -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 2:30:19 PM)
fireflyred: Your subsequent post has tons more information in it than your first one. I stand by what I said in response to that first one, however, I'd like to add one more thing. The other side of the coin that I put out there is that statistically, people who've been abused are likely to find other people who will abuse them some more. I think that while you're considering everything, you might want to give that some thought as well. I'm not saying your current master is abusive and I'm not saying he isn't, but based on the two posts you've made in this thread, I think it might be worth thinking through. Lucky Albatross said it best when she said that at this point, neither of you is ready for a relationship. That's not because you're not capable. Well, it is, but that's only because you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others (and the same is true for your master.) Just getting what needed to be said to your ex said is only a part of the battle - and it's the small part. The larger part is in healing and starting to be able to see yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses clearly - WITHOUT relying on someone else to keep you on the right path. It's SUCH hard work fireflyred. And it takes time - lots of time. You really do need to give yourself some time here. Oh yes, and one important thing - it should become your mantra until you believe it yourself. Physical altercations are ALWAYS avoidable. And fireflyred, I'm saying this from the point of view of being someone who's walked a mile in your shoes, ok? juliet

Kinkypupper -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 4:34:10 PM)
According to your account your only 19 You need to both grow up a tad and perhaps step back and reflect on what you EACH want. No you as a submissive/slave cannot teach him to be a dom/Master. He eather is or is not. Sounds like he is just seeing the world threw rose colored glasses but then I do not know either of you. I and my slave are in a 24/7 M/s relationship, we both work from home and my business of 17 yrs is in the process of disappearing and I have been job searching for nearly a year. Is it all roses... NO.. would I change anything. yes I would wish that I made enough so that she did not have to work for a faceless corporation and concentrate on her dutys here at home.

LadyHugs -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 5:32:17 PM)
Dear fireflyred, Ladies and Gentlemen; Lass, listen to yourself in the original post. Your answers are before you. This is not a healthy situation by your side of the story. You have placed a series of justifications as to leave and the match is not a good one. Anybody who controls with negativities, threats, anger, physical violence, profanity, force, mental negativities, triggers emotional wounds in a gruff manner--is not the person for you as a Dominant. They may be the most wonderful person in the world. They may have wonderful intentions of 'fixing' your past and your present. However, what I see is that you are making excuses and making other people in charge of fixing you, like making others responsible for past and present abuse issues, feelings and dealing mechanics. Clearly, the Dominant may want to heal you but--clearly, he is not a professional. Furthermore, you cannot expect others to fix your past, present and or future -- even professional mental health experts. But, mental health professionals give you the very tools you need to be your own hero--your own white knight and also a pretty darn good one. I am rather concerned about caning on the stomach as well. Lass, you need to close the doors to past abuse and you aren't going to get closed doors at the rate you are going; as they seemingly are growing wider. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

MadRabbit -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 7:20:37 PM)
Dont have much to add except to pile on with the general of consesus that neither of you are ready, mature enough, or stable enough for a M/S relationship. Both of you need to seek counseling. Just some general observations as to why... 1. He is not confident enough, possessess enough self control or secure enough in his dominance to dominante another person. I am going to go out on a limb and say he is relatively new to this and because of that he is going to need support from the submissive to achieve security in his dominance. Being new myself, I have had quite a few doubts in my own idominance and made several mistakes. Fortantely, I am lucky to have an understanding and supportive girl who is able to make me feal good about it when I need it just as I reassure her with when she is having doubts in her submission. 2. You are not past your abuse issues and lack the self control and capacity for trust required to give up control and because of this, its a power struggle, not a power exchange as several have noted. 3. Given your comments about the egg timer, it seems both of you lack the maturity for the communication REQUIRED to make a M/S relationship work. This might be taken as destructive critiscism, but sorry. Just calling it like I see it. While I dont think D/S is by far hard, I do think it takes a lot of work, effort, and energy from both people during the first few years. The first few years (Often referred to as the "Hell Years" by some) are quite difficult even for stable middle aged adults. If you arent able to look at this maturely, dunk your heads, egos and pride in a bucket of ice water, and start facing and dealing with your own personal issues, then its going to blow up in your faces worse than it already has. Hey it sucks and I know I sound cold, but we've all been there at one point. When I first made the decision that I wanted to be a dominant and have a D/S relationship, my mentors and friends stomped my pride into the ground, pryed open my eyes, and helped me take a good look at the person I currently was. And boy, did I not like that person. I have had to face my own demons, deal with substance abuse issues, confront my own lack of discipline and emotional control, and pick up the peices of a life I had done one hell of a good job smashing. I still dont have all the peices together, but I am solid enough as a person to enjoy the pleasures of a part time submissive. But if I hadnt done this, I would have been laughed at most likely by every submissive I tryed to dominante

TheSheepy -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/27/2006 8:57:20 PM)
There is exactly one person out of the billions in the world who can fix you. That was never his job. It seems to me that you have come here to air your laundry and ask for help cleaning it. If you are so hellbent on getting answers, why do you shoot them all down. While it certainly takes two to rock a boat, you seem to be setting your own little record. Being a doormat to an abusive man does not mean that you should swing the opposite way and become an angry, abusive person yourself. If you treat him the way you act on these boards, it is time to set him free and get help... it seems that the abusive one here could be you. I will not be retaliating if you blast me for that like the others, so feel free.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/28/2006 12:01:15 PM)
i havent got a clue on this one. whew - this is even over my head and i commend everyone else who has given advice. I'd still like to figure out how to help because i love puzzles. What i think may benefit you both (to start) would be time away from each other. You leave or he leaves. Step away from the problem, give it some space, let it air out. Defuse the situation. Take time so both of you can figure out whats important to yourselves and your priorities. Take time to evaluate your own behavior. Once you've taken time to comtemplate life and all it means to you - set up a date to have just some "good" time together. Coffee or a date. Set a postive stage. Postive interaction. Once you have some positive ground work together - try and talk again. Think about starting a contract. Negotiate terms. Set some guidlines or rules. Dicuss what you both need out of the relatinship, what you're willing to compromise and what you arent. Start from there to rebuild the relationship. So you can either tear down the present relationship, drop the train wreck, sort yourselves out and then rebuild it or say screw it and go vanilla and see if you can work it out that way (though i doubt it) or drop it all together If one of you, or both of you is not willing to work on the relationship then its time to let the train crash and salvage yourselves from the wreckage. You both need to stop fighting and work together to create a successful relationship.

Celeste43 -> RE: Really long, really need constructive advice. please i know there's hope (12/29/2006 8:45:23 PM)
You would both benefit by living on your own. That way he would be responsible for his mess and you would be responsible for yours. You would both be able to say that the evening was unpleasant and you are going home. In other words, you would find it easier to set sensible limits and expectations.

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