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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 4:11:46 PM

akbarbarian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

My husband has had really high T come back on his blood work at times and he's an "I get nauseous thinking about switching" sub.

Thanks for the feedback. I often wondered what the results of high T are with regards to BDSM circles.

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 4:57:33 PM

blmtrsne

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Yes. My husband is. I grew into liking it because he convinced me to try it, but he is born that way.

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 5:00:08 PM

Rover

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I'm replying to myself, as I was in a bit of a hurry when making my previous post, and wanted to note the following:

1. In another thread that touched on the "nature vs. nurture" issue, I mentioned the now thoroughly discredited sexual/gender orientation studies of the 1950's and 1960's that grew out of the women's rights movement. These studies gave credence to the (now utterly preposterous) theory that gender orientation (much like sexual orientation) was a function of nurture (ie: environment) rather than nature (ie: hardwired).

The following article from Johns Hopkins Magazine details the history of fallacy associated with the "nurture" argument.

http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0900web/babes.html

I defy anyone to read this and still advocate "nurture" to any form of sexual or gender orientation.

2. The "nurture" argument, having been discarded by the left, has experienced a resurgency with the right. It is currently being used in order to:

     A. Try to deny gay couples the right to adopt children.

     B. Try to deny gay parents the right to custody or visitation.

     C. Portray gays as "bad" or "sinners" because of their "choices".

     D. Justify "interventions" and/or therapy in order to "fix" gays.

Whether it be the left or the right, the use of "nurture" in these arguments is inseparable from an unbroken history of sordid, deplorable and intolerable abuses.

John

P.S. - I just noticed the date of publication for this article... September, 2000. I'm sad to say that since the publication date, both the Reimer twins mentioned (Brian and Bruce/Brenda/David) in the article have committed suicide.

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/27/2006 5:09:23 PM >

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 5:02:19 PM

AquaticSub

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~Fast Reply~

Definately born into it.

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 5:04:37 PM

mnottertail

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Never had the desire for sex-reassignment surgery, born a glorious pig of a man, and intend to go to my stones that way.

Ron

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 5:24:41 PM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

***question: So anyway, do you think you were born like this, or just somehow fell into learning about it, and just "adapted" to it, and like doing it and relating this way - but it isn't a "core" part of you that you were born with?

My Dear, I've always enjoyed your posts, from when I first encountered them (when you were first going through your personal angst as to your late husband) to current.

I was born this way (in answer to your question).

I didn't know it until my early 30's, but to make a very long story short, I "discovered" myself probably in my late 30's, only to get divorced (unrelated) in my very early 40's (as in, when I was).

I could go on for at least a week (if not 3 years) as to the specifics, but truly...even I'm bored with the story.

I never understood. I was often confused. Even today I don't truly understand...but...I'm ok with it.

Because it's me.

As deranged as many would presume me to be, as far away from society as my preferences would fit the rest of the world...

I'm okay with it.

Because it's me. And as far off from everyone else's expectation as I might fit...it fits me.

(Exceptionally well).

:)

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 12/27/2006 5:27:25 PM >

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 5:32:16 PM

Lashra

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I am naturally dominant of that there is no question whatsoever. I have never felt submissive or the need to be submissive. I believe a person should be who they truly are and break from the mold they were conditioned to be IF that mold is not who they truly are.
I am aggressive, competitive and logical, though I do have emotions, I don't think Im as emotional as alot of other females that I know. I have always been like that ever since I was a child.
I was always interested in tying boys up and being "mean" to them. Making the boys put on makeup and girls clothes was fun. Tying them up and yanking on their hair was fun (it all still is

). Some of the boys liked it, some didn't but the funny thing was they all let me do it.

Bottom line be true to your OWN nature and not what some book tells you to be.

~Lashra

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:10:11 PM

Zsuzsanna

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I truly believe I was born this way. I have been a submissive for as long as I can remember, always eager to please, always happy when others are.

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:14:52 PM

Lordandmaster

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I'm pretty sure I was born like this. I had vivid dreams about torturing women as early as I can remember, probably when I was around 3. And my childhood was as happy as could be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

***question: So anyway, do you think you were born like this, or just somehow fell into learning about it, and just "adapted" to it, and like doing it and relating this way - but it isn't a "core" part of you that you were born with?

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:19:35 PM

slavemaia

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i really have no idea. i know since i can remember i've been masochistic but submissive? Not really sure. As i look back on my life i can see that although i exhibited assertive and dominant characteristics, i've submitted to anyone who was stronger - emotionally, psychologically than i. i can't say i am submissive to all as there are many who are so passive and wishy washy that i can only envision us all sitting around waiting for someone to take the lead. In those instances i will step up to the plate.

Master says i'm naturally submissive and so if that's what He believes and thinks, so be it. i don't really care actually whether i'm "naturally" submissive, born this way or have chosen it because i find it fulfilling.

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:26:09 PM

sublizzie

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I was both born this way and nurtured to be submissive. So I fit both sides of that particular argument. I find it interesting that both of my adult children are Dommes. It makes for unique family gatherings.....

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:27:50 PM

Emperor1956

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John (Rover): You are making a huge mistake, confusing gender with sexual orientation. The Reimer studies, and indeed much of the work of Johns Hopkins Gender Identity and Psychosexual Disorders Clinic deals with people who are intersexed, not people who are homosexual/heterosexual/bi. I have no problem with an argument that gender is hard-wired; indeed, the work of Reimer and many others indicates that gender is innate, and attempting to raise a child who suffers from an intersex disorder or accident "cross gender" results in significant psychological disruption. But the discussion I thought was whether sexual orientation/expression was hard wired, not gender. The article you cite is interesting, but off topic.

The truth, as others have said, is there is no consensus on the "nature vs. nurture" argument if you are talking about orientation, including the orientation to B/D/S/M and within B/D/S/M, Dom or sub. Anectodal stories are not valuable in proving one side or another. Neither are childhood memories, by the way. Many people talk about "knowing" they were sub or Dom at a very early age, but studies of childhood memories show they are malleable and adults often "remember" things they think are significant to their adult lives. So a vanilla person may have also had childhood fantasies about being tied up (for instance) but he or she doesn't "remember" it with the intensity of an adult submissive. Instead, perhaps, he or she remembers an erotic experience involving a cigarette, and says "I've been a smoke fetishist since I was five."

What I can absolutely agree on is that any use of this argument to oppress someone because of their orientation is immoral. In exploring "why we are what we are" it is imperative to remember that those who choose to use science to further a personal hatred are acting immorally, and that distortion must be called out every time. Wrong is wrong, whether it is an argument that one race is better suited to physical labor, that gays are "choosing" to be gay and therefore can be converted, or that women are genetically incapable of holding a "man's job" (a common fallacy, "proven" by bad science, of the 19th Century).

E

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:31:56 PM

LadyIce

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I agree, I did not see the connection either between sexual orientation
and this topic, thanks for clearing this up.
I see no connection to the OP's topic and sexual orientation.

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:42:53 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

John (Rover): You are making a huge mistake, confusing gender with sexual orientation. The Reimer studies, and indeed much of the work of Johns Hopkins Gender Identity and Psychosexual Disorders Clinic deals with people who are intersexed, not people who are homosexual/heterosexual/bi. I have no problem with an argument that gender is hard-wired; indeed, the work of Reimer and many others indicates that gender is innate, and attempting to raise a child who suffers from an intersex disorder or accident "cross gender" results in significant psychological disruption. But the discussion I thought was whether sexual orientation/expression was hard wired, not gender. The article you cite is interesting, but off topic.

Actually, I would propose that as it relates to the studies cited, sexual orientation is linked to gender orientation. Admittedly, it was not the purpose of the studies to set out to prove that sexual orientation is hard wired, but it can hardly be dismissed.

A male, raised as a female, remains hardwired as a male... including his sexual orientation. Not only was "nurture" unable to influence gender identity, it was unable to influence sexual identity. That seems, to me, completely relevant to the topic. Of course, you're free to disagree.

John

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 8:56:36 PM

TXssbbwGODDESS

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Not sure about being born this way, but my very first serious relationship (while still in my teens at that) was with a man who was very submissive. It didn't weird me out, in fact, taking the dominant role came very naturally to me and I enjoyed it from the start.

So, I think the tendency was probably there before I met that man.

In my twenties I took on the submissive role in a relationship and to be charitable about the whole affair, it was indeed a learning experience. I learned that for me, submission was at most an occasional switchy bedroom game type thing. Being *a* submissive was something I wasn't capable of doing at all.

So, I have known for over two decades that the whole D/S dynamic felt comfortable and natural to me. And for over a decade that my primary role is overwhelmingly as a dominant.

TXssbbwGODDESS

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 9:29:15 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear SusanofO, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Interesting topic.

In my mind's eyes I see, working with pedigrees of horses and breeding, the qualities of the Sire (Male/Stallion) and the Dam (Female/Mare) were taken into account, as well as qualities the match was to produce. In my mind's eyes I see genetics play a great deal into what creates the recipe to create the 'baby/us.'

In looking at ancestry in my own family; I find that it is how interesting diary entries and reputation; follows into that tracking of the qualities the matching of 'father' and 'mother' and producing "Hugs" -- It was a pleasant surprise to come across an authentic photograph of a relative with an English disciplinary cane. This relative was born in the late 1800's. [Note: Photograph is in the Leather Archives/Library under Vi Johnson's care]

In my own case, I take much after my father. He was a 'Hugger' and loved people. He would bend backwards to help others, even at great risk to himself. A family friend witnessed this in 1945; he was driving my future mother and her friend back. Anybody with a car was lucky, WWII just started to end and segregation was entrenched.
A Black lady was being harassed at the bus stop by some white drunken 'yahoos.' My father armed with a pistol came to her aid, stayed with her until she was safe on her bus. Other random acts of kindness I have learned from other's words and stories--but, not from my father. He didn't brag or put on false aires, the attention or the fame. He just did what was right.

In my mind's eyes I see, we are given 'traits.' Perhaps using such traits as to mold our personalities, as well as parental guidence also known as domination, puts such traits into leave alone and to other work out until they're in submission. In addition, I am of the belief that all individuals have leanings into opposite genders. As for my personal 'likes' I am very attracted to Gay Leather men. Perhaps the answer comes from my attraction to military, uniforms, examples of their code of conduct, protocols and no nonsense attitude. In the pansexual and heterosexual realms I don't see the degrees of protocols and that leaning towards military and or uniform. It certainly isn't sexual. I am attracted to all men, regardless of sexual preferences--as long as they behave in a more masculine manner. I get sexually aroused by watching military ceremonial drilling (go figure) LOL --Have a naked man or more, I don't have an urge to hop into the Bunny Bed with them. So, I am teased in a fun way, that I'm a Gay man trapped in a lady's body. [Chuckles]

But, it can be interesting to reflect back on my childhood. Instead of collecting Barbie dolls, I was piecing together the AMT Car models. I was my Daddy's little helper, handing him tools. I know a lot about cars--sometimes I surprise the lads I dated. And, yet--I am just as comfortable being in formal dinners, mink, 42 button gloves (the long gloves that are up to the armpits on sleeveless gowns) and appear most proper and be a gracious hostess or guest. Then trade it for a rifle and handguns and ammo and be sighting in scopes and do sniper exercises. Hop on an old Indian Motorcycle and jar my insides to scrambled eggs and then get into a limousine, pill box hat, gloves and high heels the next hour (after taking a good bath, wash hair, paint nails, dressing). In summary--I'm a unique recipe! (That is why I am so hard to find a match in a slave...I wear ruffles as well as go rough and tumble in my younger days).

Therefore, I am not an expert on the philosophy of genetics, human behavior and the like. But, I am of the thought that we all are a product of love rather than breeding for the perfect Master, Mistress and or slave. We inherit each parent's ancestery charts with flaws and all. By being flawed--we're perfect, as our flaws like chips on a glass or pitcher, tea cup or plate--it has a history. I also believe we can identify with either Dominant, submissive and or both traits and in addition, identify with Arch-types that best identifies a more broadly given identity/label/description. But, it all comes to the fact, that we're just us. (In general terms)

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 9:58:17 PM

MstrssScarlet

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My husband and I were both definitely born this way. At a very young age, he was setting traps in the back yard, hoping some little girl might become snared in one of them. Thank God he never succeeded! They would surely have thrown him into juvenile detention and tried to "cure" him.
I was a little unsure of my role at first, but had very vivid daydreams about things BDSM in nature. At the last family gathering, I saw a cousin of mine that I hadn't talked to in years. It wasn't long before he started treasing me (loudly in front of everyone) about how I used to tie him and his sister up all the time. I had totally forgotten the whole thing. He even went on to say that if they managed to escape, I would always run back and tie them up again. My sister swore she only did it because I made her. LOL My husband tried his best not to laugh too much, but he certainly had that 'aha!' look on his face. They could have saved me some time and soul searching if they'd told me those stories sooner!!!
Mistress Scarlet

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/27/2006 11:16:42 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

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quote:

***question: So anyway, do you think you were born like this, or just somehow fell into learning about it, and just "adapted" to it, and like doing it and relating this way - but it isn't a "core" part of you that you were born with?

Susan

I was just debating this with someone earlier today in regards to whether this is something one is born to or if it is something that goes wrong in the brain. (Note: that "somthing that goes wrong in the brain" is their opinion not mine.) They're still at odds with their submissive preferences and can't seem to figure out why they're submissive in private when they are so dominant in their public vanilla day to day world.

Personally I believe one is born the way they are. Even in the most vanilla of relationships it seems that one or the other always wears the pants and makes the decisions when it comes down to it. I was born dominant. Even before I knew anything about the lifestyle itself I was dominant.

I was the kid in the neighborhood that instigated playing doctor or cowboys and indians/cops and robbers just so I could tie some one to a tree and torture them. I was thrilled at 6 or 7 to get this little police set with handcuffs and a badge! I can't tell you how many times my parents got phone calls about catching me playing doctor or "you show me yours I'll show you mine" or luring some unsuspecting boy to a fort in the woods to tease them and torture them. I suppose they simply thought I was incorrigable and would grow out of it. I remember getting many many lectures about how it wasn't appropriate to do these things.

Even as I grew older and had vanilla boyfriends in hs I always ran the show if you will. I made it clear that I would date others and that I expected them to be very loyal and faithful.If they protested I would dump them and find another boyfriend that would stumble all over themself to please me and make me happy. I was often called selfish or deemed a bitch.

In corporate life I was considered a ball breaker and for several years I was nicknamed "The Executioner" behind my back because I would go into branches and reorganize them; shaking things up and firing people that needed firing. Branch managers and their employees would visible shake and turn pale when I walked in and announced I would be doing evaluations for the next few weeks to reorganize their set ups. They knew that if I was there people would be getting fired. I could go on and on but I think I've babbled on more than enough.

Suffice to say, I do think its something we are born to do. Just my opinion of course. LOL

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/28/2006 12:58:44 AM

SusanofO

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Thanks for all of the replies so far, people!

Rover: As far as gender orientation, (and maybe bdsm orientation as well) I have to agree w/you. I am not discounting nurture completely, I think it has a much more minor influence there, maybe.

As far as sexual orientation, when I did my sociology project as an undergrad, I handed out questionnaires to almost 300 gay men, and it only had 3 questions on it, plus room for them to write comments. I went to a gay bar (one of my best friends at the time was a gay man), and handed them out over a period of about 5 weeks. The questions were:

1) Were you (in your opinion) born gay, or was it a concious choice of yours?

2) Are you happy being gay, or would you become straight if you could?

3) Do you think being gay has any moral component to it at all (no offense intended whatsoever).

Overhwhelmingly, the men thought they were born that way (98% of them). They also (about 72%) said they were happy, But - they qualified it as far as the attitude they felt society held toward them. "I am relatively happy - but sad I'll probably never have my own kids or family, get married" etc. Or, "I am happy, but my family isn't speaking to me because of my orientation", etc.

Strangely enough, some (I forget the percentage, but it was in the lower twentieth percentile somewhere) felt being gay did have a moral compenent (of course I hail from Nebraska, which isn't exactly L.A. or NYC, in terms of liberal attitudes prevailing). And it was 1982 (before even the AIDs crisis had hit full force - which of course, if anyone recalls, brought on another round of "moralizing" toward gay people - at least at the beginning. "They're getting AIDs because they've made God extremely angry"...).

Anyway - the entire project really made me stop and think. How unfair it is to saddle people with some morality burden for something they most likely had no say in creating. Nor that I am the kind of person who gives two hoots what anyone else wants to do in their own bedroom to begin with. I am not. I couldn't care less. As far as I am concerned it is nuetral. So is being bdsm oriented.

LTRsubNW: Thanks for your reply - and the complement!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/28/2006 1:41:40 AM >

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RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? - 12/28/2006 6:11:11 AM

cjenny

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I am the youngest of four girls, my father is most assuredly Dominant and my mother most assuredly submissive. One sister is gay, and I know that I was born submissive just as she was born gay. It was so very hard not understanding my need to please others, my need to make their path smooth. Any hint of displeasure shown towards me sent me into a 'pleasing others' sort of tailspin until the displeasure was turned into emotional reward of knowing i had pleased someone.
While I have been a follower all of my life, it took until adulthood to gain the inner acceptance of this. I had to learn to channel my need so that I wasn't trying to please the entire world (a futile way to live) but instead trying to please those closest to me.
I just wish I could go back in time and know from the beginning that I am not abnormal...