RE: Submissive Guilt

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crouchingtigress -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/3/2007 6:26:36 PM)
guilt is a selfish act, is it possible that it is your deeper self trying subconsciously hold on to some thing of its very own? i dont know how much this makes sense..first i want to share that in my slaveiest slave times in my life i have not had the feeling you describe for extended periods of time, i see my service, even when it has sucked, as hedonistic...i am serve them because of the pleasure it give me. i have read you for some time now, and often with my mouth dropped open at the Tao of your service. Sometimes i find it heart wrenchingly goose pimply breath takingly beautiful and some times i scratch my head....(please dont flame me i am being honest here) *everything you are is his, every thing you own, every act you do, every song you sing, every thought you have, every breath every heartbeat...his...concisously, resolutely, passionatly his.* i can help but wonder if maybe there is a teeny tiny bit of you, that needs to belong to you, but that idea is so counter to everything you believe, and live that that part has gone in to disguise and is mascaraing as selflessness to preserve itself?

julietsierra -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/3/2007 6:36:16 PM)
I'm Catholic. I've been raised on guilt like it was a major food group. But here's what I have figured out about guilty pleasure so far. If pleasure is what I want to give to my Master, and he derives pleasure from me experiencing pleasure - no, not out of a sense of entitlement but simply for pleasure's sake, then deriving pleasure is something that is a lovely thing. You derive pleasure, you exhibit pleasure, that exhibition is pleasureable to your Master and it becomes a lovely circle. If you have been given to someone else to provide for their pleasure, then your Master derives pleasure from the compliments received regarding your service. Giving pleasure includes deriving pleasure because the person who is doing that to you enjoys knowing that he is just that good. Hence, again, deriving pleasure becomes a service you perform. You derive pleasure, the person you've been given to has his ego (amongst other things) stroked which gives him pleasure. He communicates that to your Master and that provides HIM pleasure. He is pleased with your performance and he gets even more pleasure. But it all starts with you and your willingness to exhibit the pleasure you derive from what you're doing. Being grateful for that pleasure negates the entitlement process and is much more positive than guilt. Afterall, if it's your Master that you were with when you experienced pleasure, then he gave that to you. Feeling guilty over the pleasure he's provided you with is like rebuffing something he's provided for you - as is his right as your Master - to decide when you will receive pleasure. It's not your entitlement that he seems to be searching for. It's your gratitude. You might want to try to exchange guilt for gratitude. It's not an even exchange. Gratitude always provides more than guilt ever could. It's just a different perspective of the same event - and one in which your Master receives so much more than you could ever provide through guilt. juliet

slavemaia -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/3/2007 7:03:45 PM)
quote: part of the difficulty is that my Master is not one of those types who has a desire to control my pleasure, or who "gets off" from giving me pleasure. He wishes for me to be able to experience pleasure, but he never wants me to expect or even hope for pleasure at any particular moment. He does indeed want me to ultimately be selfless...don't think of self, don't worry about or focus on self. yet at the same time it's important to him that i experience pleasure from time to time, that i do enjoy some things some times. that may seem confusing to some. basically, pleasure is okay. but wanting or feeling entitled to pleasure, or allowing that pleasure to take focus away (even slightly) from service, not okay. and i just do not know if this is possible. so it's much easier to simply be the slavebot in these situations...remaining in perfect obedience and service, yet experiencing no direct pleasure. Well i would think you should sign up for a lobotomy then if you are not to experience any pleasure. Serving is pleasure - being a slave is pleasure unless you are constantly doing things you abhore. i think the point is that you are not to be concerned with your own needs and desires and need to stay focused on Him and His. i understand that. But you will derive pleasure and satisfaction from serving Him well. i don't think it can be helped. Allowing yourself to feel/experience your own reactions is different than seeking what you want. And in that respect, unless your ultimate goal is non-feeling, then accept that you do and will always experience pleasure because it's your desire to serve and be used. i'm curious. Why is not experiencing any pleasure so important to you? What do you think you're taking away from your Master by having your own experience? i don't seek my benefit or pleasure in being Master's slave, but when He says He is pleased with me, my heart and soul smile and yes, i feel deep pleasure.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/3/2007 8:36:19 PM)
Master owns all of me, even my pleasure. This means he owns my orgasms, my delights, my happiness and joy, my sadness and pain. When he wants to feel his slut having an orgasm, he puts one in her. When he wants to witness his slut feeling pain, he puts pain on her. I am here for his use, not for my enjoyment. I just happen to enjoy that he uses me. When I laugh, he owns it. When I cry, he owns it. I orgasm only for him and only when he commands it of me. When I do, it is for him, not for me. He creates them so large and long last in me that they often cease to be pleasurable for me at all, but he does so because he experiences and enjoys his own power that way. My pleasure derives from his enjoyment of exercising this power. While I have felt guilty for feeling pleasure in my life, I can not feel guilty for giving my Master what he wants, I can only feel good about it. Perhaps you can work toward that front - if he wants you to have an orgasm, he still owns it; you are only giving him what he wants. Edited to add: It is critical that all orgasms belong to him. I am never to ask to cum just for my own pleasure; if I ask to cum it is to offer an orgasm to him. I am never to masturbate to orgasm unless he has instructed it. I am never to cum at all unless he tells me to. So, when he demands me to orgasm, it is because he wants it. This way, I am taking nothing from him. I am not focusing on me at all, but on him, even when I cum. This alleviated any guilt and any feelings of selfishness.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 8:12:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Master owns all of me, even my pleasure. This means he owns my orgasms, my delights, my happiness and joy, my sadness and pain. When he wants to feel his slut having an orgasm, he puts one in her. When he wants to witness his slut feeling pain, he puts pain on her. I am here for his use, not for my enjoyment. I just happen to enjoy that he uses me. When I laugh, he owns it. When I cry, he owns it. I orgasm only for him and only when he commands it of me. When I do, it is for him, not for me. He creates them so large and long last in me that they often cease to be pleasurable for me at all, but he does so because he experiences and enjoys his own power that way. My pleasure derives from his enjoyment of exercising this power. While I have felt guilty for feeling pleasure in my life, I can not feel guilty for giving my Master what he wants, I can only feel good about it. Perhaps you can work toward that front - if he wants you to have an orgasm, he still owns it; you are only giving him what he wants. Edited to add: It is critical that all orgasms belong to him. I am never to ask to cum just for my own pleasure; if I ask to cum it is to offer an orgasm to him. I am never to masturbate to orgasm unless he has instructed it. I am never to cum at all unless he tells me to. So, when he demands me to orgasm, it is because he wants it. This way, I am taking nothing from him. I am not focusing on me at all, but on him, even when I cum. This alleviated any guilt and any feelings of selfishness. owned, first, thanks for stopping by. :) now, i think that perhaps if my Master were like yours in the sense of wanting to control his slave's pleasure, of wanting to own it, then it might be somewhat easier for me to reconcile all of this in my mind and alleviate some of the guilt. but, that is not his way. while he wants me to experience pleasure in a general sense...it's not something he desires or demands at any particular moment. He doesn't care to control sexual pleasure or orgasm...those things just don't hold any interest to him. as far as sexual things go, he would like for me to have/retain the ability to experience some sort of direct pleasure, without guilt, but it's not a requirement/demand or anything he wishes to consciously make happen, nor is it something he'd like to be a regular occurence. so because he is not demanding of it...because there is no particular moment or time when he desires it...and because he has so thoroughly trained me to be utterly selfless in service, when i do experience those pleasureable feelings, it just feels wrong, like i'm being a bad girl and going against the path he has set out for me.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 8:16:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavemaia Well i would think you should sign up for a lobotomy then if you are not to experience any pleasure. Serving is pleasure - being a slave is pleasure unless you are constantly doing things you abhore. i think the point is that you are not to be concerned with your own needs and desires and need to stay focused on Him and His. i understand that. But you will derive pleasure and satisfaction from serving Him well. i don't think it can be helped. Allowing yourself to feel/experience your own reactions is different than seeking what you want. And in that respect, unless your ultimate goal is non-feeling, then accept that you do and will always experience pleasure because it's your desire to serve and be used. i'm curious. Why is not experiencing any pleasure so important to you? What do you think you're taking away from your Master by having your own experience? i don't seek my benefit or pleasure in being Master's slave, but when He says He is pleased with me, my heart and soul smile and yes, i feel deep pleasure. maybe i've been a bit too vague...there is a difference between the fulfillment one gets as a submissive from pleasing and serving, and direct pleasure that one may get from being used or from being catered to/pampered in some way. i have no guilt regarding the former.

eyesopened -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 8:52:20 AM)
i will admit that i should probably not post anything here because i have difficulty understanding the dynamic you are in. However, it somehow sounds like one should eat food only for nutrition and never for taste. What happens if healthy food actually tastes good? The only way to remove all taste and eat for nutrition would be to damage all taste buds or install a feeding tube. i don't know if this analogy is working or not. i guess i don't see why a person should feel guilty about feeling pleasure unless one is trying to stop being a person and become an automaton. Another anology would be the garden. The garden produces crops for the farmer. If the farmer does not add back to the soil, the plant cannot continue to thrive and the farmer loses his crops. Think of your pleasurable moments not as being selfish but as being nurtured and renewed so that you can continue to produce.

alandraofMists -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 10:49:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 maybe i've been a bit too vague...there is a difference between the fulfillment one gets as a submissive from pleasing and serving, and direct pleasure that one may get from being used or from being catered to/pampered in some way. i have no guilt regarding the former. i too deal with guilty while being catered and pampered too. Even when sick i feel guilty and at a loss if i am being token care of. Some times i am able to deal with the feeling by telling myself that it is what He wishes me to do. Some times i just feel more miserable because of the guilt of feeling like i am not deserving of being spoiled or cared for. in some ways when i am given things i feel the need to look back on my behaviours and see what i have done to deserve the gift or time that i am getting. Knight’s alandra

aSlavesLife -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 3:29:14 PM)
daddysprop, My first owner had trained me to be selfless in service like you and my new owner is just reinforcing what had already been done to me. I was raised in a very conservative/orthodox Jewish home and guilt was a mainstream feeling. It is a feeling I have dealt with on a constant basis my whole adult life. My present owner is very controlling when it comes to my pleasure because he navigates my feelings to allow pleasure and not feel the guilt associated in receiving it. He does this by telling me when I'm a good girl in service to him I get a reward and that it's ok to find pleasure in that reward without the guilt. This is at his discretion and has no pattern that I know of but on those rare occasions that I receive pleasure whether it be a gift or an orgasm, I have learned to accept it without the guilt attached to it. This is a decision your owner has to make in regards to you and your feelings. It sounds as though he set up contradictory goals for you and they keep conflicting with each other. So, I think he has to set more rigid guidelines as to what`he expects of you in regards to feeling pleasure. I get the sense from all i have read in your posts that he truly cares deeply for you and your wellbeing, so maybe he just doesn't realize the conflict that is stirring within you. I know that for myself sometimes when in training or service it becomes hard to voice some of the turmoils that can build up emotionally, and I tend to either ignore it or stifle it way down. This is something I recognize in myself and try to overcome. It's not easy but it's something I will always have to be aware of and work on in order to be the best for my owner that I can be.

AquaticSub -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 6:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Prop I'm afraid your master must make a choice then. You can either obey his orders to never think about yourself, or you can obey his orders to learn how to enjoy when he gives you pleasure. You can't do both. In order to learn to process things differently, in order to learn that you deserve the pleasure, you MUST think about yourself, you MUST care about how this feels to you. You're right, it is easier to be a bot in this case, there'd be nothing you'd need to learn or change if you could just deal with it. But he's given you an order that conflicts with another order. He has to choose. I am NOT saying you need to learn to 'expect pleasure' or even 'desire pleasure.' I am saying that in order for you to follow his orders for you to grow and accept pleasure without guilt, it will require you to care for yourself, think about yourself, and accept that you deserve the pleasure. And if HE doesn't allow that to happen, then it's actually only going to increase your guilt and conflict. I would advise you to take this advice to heart and share it with your master.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 9:53:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 owned, first, thanks for stopping by. :) now, i think that perhaps if my Master were like yours in the sense of wanting to control his slave's pleasure, of wanting to own it, then it might be somewhat easier for me to reconcile all of this in my mind and alleviate some of the guilt. but, that is not his way. while he wants me to experience pleasure in a general sense...it's not something he desires or demands at any particular moment. He doesn't care to control sexual pleasure or orgasm...those things just don't hold any interest to him. as far as sexual things go, he would like for me to have/retain the ability to experience some sort of direct pleasure, without guilt, but it's not a requirement/demand or anything he wishes to consciously make happen, nor is it something he'd like to be a regular occurence. so because he is not demanding of it...because there is no particular moment or time when he desires it...and because he has so thoroughly trained me to be utterly selfless in service, when i do experience those pleasureable feelings, it just feels wrong, like i'm being a bad girl and going against the path he has set out for me. Hi prop, thanks for the response. I bolded some things in your post, that will hopefully speak for themselves... He wants you to experience something, yet you feel wrong for doing what it is he wants you to be able to do. Yes, I understand this is why you are asking others how they overcame this, but you also know that nothing he wants you to do should resonate negatively with you. Is there anything in your life that makes you smile? That you derive enjoyment from? And do you feel guilty about those things, also? Do you feel guilty for eating ice cream on a hot summer day? For laughing at a corny joke? For napping when you need rest? These are all healthy activities which contribute to the wholeness of a person, and the wholeness of a person can provide a different level of service. It seems to me he would like you to lump in orgasms with these other things, and experience your wholeness.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/4/2007 10:02:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alandraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 maybe i've been a bit too vague...there is a difference between the fulfillment one gets as a submissive from pleasing and serving, and direct pleasure that one may get from being used or from being catered to/pampered in some way. i have no guilt regarding the former. i too deal with guilty while being catered and pampered too. Even when sick i feel guilty and at a loss if i am being token care of. Some times i am able to deal with the feeling by telling myself that it is what He wishes me to do. Some times i just feel more miserable because of the guilt of feeling like i am not deserving of being spoiled or cared for. in some ways when i am given things i feel the need to look back on my behaviours and see what i have done to deserve the gift or time that i am getting. Knight’s alandra alandra, your post reminded me of something I struggled with once. I was on the phone with my Master while snuggled up in my silky new 600ct sheets. I had never bought myself anything nice like that before, and while he was speaking to me in a way that was rather demeaning, I suddenly felt horrible for being so cozy in my sheets - as though I should slink off the bed and onto the floor. I got quiet and he asked what I was thinking. I told him that - that I had slid onto the floor because I didn't deserve such things like nice sheets. He said "You may have nice things, slut. I may let my dog up on my silk sheeted bed, but it's still a dog, and still behaves like a dog." This helped me realize that no matter my surroundings or enjoyed niceties, we both know I remain his slave, and in my heart I will always be that. My place with him and the service I provide to him do not change one iota just because I slept in nice sheets. I also know at any moment he could take it away from me, and tell me to sleep naked on the hard floor. I think as long as we see what we are allowed as gifts from our owners, and are grateful for them, will will not take them for granted, and therefore should have no guilt.

kinkiminx -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 5:52:26 AM)
Wow. All I can say is I'm amazed and awed by the amount of genine dedication and submission you've all shown. I'm afraid I can't help here -I'm not submissive enough to feel that way, my submission is a lot more about surrendering myself to someone than service. I don't suppose I'm a natural, but then its interesting to have variety. I can understand a little - I couldn't take pleasure from a Dom who owned me without desiring to give plenty too, but this is trivial compared to what you've explained. I do hope for pleasure and don't feel bad about that, not to mention mid-scene I'd be likely to be bound and doubt I'd have much choice in the matter! But then I'm not all 100% subbie, think I'm a bit more like something wild to keep on a leash... lol I agree with luckyalbatross -you need to be aware of your pleasure to experience it, that doesn't mean you need to expect or demand it, and as you mentioned, from what you have said it doesn't appear it would be in your nature to do either of those things anyway. But you do need to accept and understand it. You should explain your feelings to your Daddy, maybe show him this thread if it helps. There are loads of interesting suggestions there too, and talking this through might really help. You need to be shown a direction, rather than two confusingly opposite ones, but I would personally think being able to accept your own pleasure is a basic human need for being healthy, even if it is often denied and you are happy just to serve, and when he chooses to give you pleasure you should be able to accept it as easily as his choice to give you pain, as it is his desicion and not yours! Plenty of more useful responses than this, but I just wanted to say best of luck with working this out, and please don't doubt your submission just because of this as you sound incredibly devoted.

kinkiminx -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 5:57:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MmakeMme You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees or the stars - you have a right to be here. Lol that brings back memories - I was a backing singer on that track when I was still cute and innocent... [:D] lol

heartfeltsub -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 6:44:39 AM)
Prop, you and i have "spoken" before about both of us being 'survivors' of childhood abuse. i too dealt with guilt for a long time when getting good things done for me, etc. and i had to figure out what part of that guilt came from the feelings of worthless that childhood abuse leaves and what part of it came from my submissive nature. i especially felt guilty and bad for experiencing an orgasm because the sexual abuse of my childhood made me feel that getting pleasure from sex was very wrong, like it made the sexual abuse my fault. However doing that takes introspection and focusing on oneself, something that it seems like your Daddy doesn't want you to do, as he seems to prefer you to be selfless and not focus on yourself. Maybe you will find a solution to the guilt that you feel without that introspection and internal work, i however could not.

Hissltviolet -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 8:32:40 AM)
...greetings to A/all... ...thanks to A/all that have taken time to comment on this topic...this girl has found it very insightful to read... ...she sometimes wonders how 'innate' the feelings of guilt are to the submissive/slave nature...knowing that it is something she has had to try to deal with all her life...in retrospect...she realizes that she has had this nature all the accumalitive years of her life...always taking 'responsibility' for the happiness and pleasure of everybody around her...and should anyone 'express' displeasure or unhappiness she would assume the 'guilt'...(talk about 'topping from the bottom(not a flame...simply a 'self' observation))... ...add to this her personal concept that she is 'unworthy' of any pleasure of her own only set her up in a vicious cycle of denial...to herself AND to her Master... ...she is fortunate today...she is the property of a Master that takes pleasure in her pleasure in serving Him...that she is ecstatically happy to 'be' His slave...seems to be the greatest service she brings to Him...and...when ever she tries to 'deny' herself the joy she feels in her service to Him...He will remind her how 'silly' she is being and warns her to NOT deny Him... ...she has no real 'advice' to offer here...except the same many O/others have suggested...communication is the most important element to 'any' relationship... sometimes...something that seems insurmountable when trying to deal with it on our own becomes very simple when shared with the 'One' our heart values the most...

daddysprop247 -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 10:12:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 owned, first, thanks for stopping by. :) now, i think that perhaps if my Master were like yours in the sense of wanting to control his slave's pleasure, of wanting to own it, then it might be somewhat easier for me to reconcile all of this in my mind and alleviate some of the guilt. but, that is not his way. while he wants me to experience pleasure in a general sense...it's not something he desires or demands at any particular moment. He doesn't care to control sexual pleasure or orgasm...those things just don't hold any interest to him. as far as sexual things go, he would like for me to have/retain the ability to experience some sort of direct pleasure, without guilt, but it's not a requirement/demand or anything he wishes to consciously make happen, nor is it something he'd like to be a regular occurence. so because he is not demanding of it...because there is no particular moment or time when he desires it...and because he has so thoroughly trained me to be utterly selfless in service, when i do experience those pleasureable feelings, it just feels wrong, like i'm being a bad girl and going against the path he has set out for me. Hi prop, thanks for the response. I bolded some things in your post, that will hopefully speak for themselves... He wants you to experience something, yet you feel wrong for doing what it is he wants you to be able to do. Yes, I understand this is why you are asking others how they overcame this, but you also know that nothing he wants you to do should resonate negatively with you. Is there anything in your life that makes you smile? That you derive enjoyment from? And do you feel guilty about those things, also? Do you feel guilty for eating ice cream on a hot summer day? For laughing at a corny joke? For napping when you need rest? These are all healthy activities which contribute to the wholeness of a person, and the wholeness of a person can provide a different level of service. It seems to me he would like you to lump in orgasms with these other things, and experience your wholeness. well, maybe not going quite as far as orgasms...but yes he does want me to be a generally whole and mostly happy person, and he feels that pleasure is a part of achieving that, so he wants the potential to experience pleasure to remain within me. i know that i should feel fortunate that he feels this way, rather than view it as a burden. but perhaps the very challenge that it presents can help balance things out for me.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 10:15:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hissltviolet ...she has no real 'advice' to offer here...except the same many O/others have suggested...communication is the most important element to 'any' relationship... sometimes...something that seems insurmountable when trying to deal with it on our own becomes very simple when shared with the 'One' our heart values the most... you're right, communication is key. i would never present any problem or issue here on the boards that had not already been discussed with my Master...he is quite familiar with all my internal struggles.

KnightofMists -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 10:19:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Hi Daddysprop, I have a question for you before I actually try to answer your OP. When did your Daddy give you permission to own guilt? Guilt isn't something which is given to you, it's something you take. Pleasure is a gift which can be accepted with grace and gratitude. Guilt, on the other hand, is one of the most selfish emotions you can own. It does nothing for anyone but you. So, tell me.. how do you dare to be so selfish and take ownership of guilt and profess to be a slave at the same time? Where did the expectation come from that it was OK for you to own anything, much less guilt? Just something to think about, Celeste Glad someone caught this...... Disappointed that I haven't seen a response to this.

KnightofMists -> RE: Submissive Guilt (1/5/2007 10:23:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alandraofMists in some ways when i am given things i feel the need to look back on my behaviours and see what i have done to deserve the gift or time that i am getting. and so if you look back and question and decide that you didn't deserve it or can't see that you deserve it... Does it matter. Should your opinion of what you get from me take precedence? You do yourself more harm than good by looking backwards.... Accept what is... and move forward and Actualize what is wanted!

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