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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:01:11 AM

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comparing butter and sugar to smoking is comparing apples to oranges. Natural foods will always be better for you than anything that has names you have to look up. That is just plain old common sense. People made the choice to use those things because they thought they would lose weight and cost, Name one thing natural about smokes, and how its good for you?

(in reply to swtnsparkling)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:10:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

NG, i have probably said this 100 times but i'll say it again. i have no desire to go blow smoke in some non-smoker's face. i am well beyond the point of thinking we will ever be able to smoke in a public place again.

You are wasting your time trying to engage rationally with these people. You take part in an activity of which they disapprove of and they want it banned whether or not it personally effects them. If there were smoking and no smoking bars these people would walk an extra mile to the smoking bar to claim their rights to clean air were being effected.

Asthma keeps coming up as evidence of how bad secondhand smoke is yet asthma has increased dramatically while cigarette smoking has been significantly decreasing. They bring up all sorts of spurious data which could have more to do with background traffic and industrial pollution. That is not to say smoking isn't bad for ones health but their objections are more to do with puritanical disapproval than health.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:16:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

NG, i have probably said this 100 times but i'll say it again. i have no desire to go blow smoke in some non-smoker's face. i am well beyond the point of thinking we will ever be able to smoke in a public place again. But i will defend to death my right to smoke in my own home and in my own car.....and around my kids (if i had small ones and barring they were sickly) because that is what freedom of choice is.

We're in full agreement then. You most certainly do have the right to endanger your kids' health. They're yours. I think it's a reckless approach to take based on the extensive research which can be viewed at the click of a finger. I accept you do not value this opinion and I accept it's your call providing it's in your own home rather than a shared public place.

And i will defend to death my right to be entitled to the allowance of some type of establishment that i can gather with others like me and we can smoke our brains out together if we want to....because again, that is my choice....and the presence of the others there is consensual (as i see has come up in a different post).

Agreed. Your, and other smokers', call to sit in each others' smoke in a home or designated smoking establishment.

So now we have to worry about the Smoke Nazis banging on our doors "Open up...is someone smoking in there?" You may wish to settle for a life like that but i have no desire to....whether i smoked or not.

adaddy'sgirl, you're making an assumption/suggestion that is not in line with anything I've ever posted. If you're not sure where someone stands then ask a question rather than suggest. I value my privacy which includes keeping out the fumes from someone else's habit. I also value other peoples' privacy and you have my word that I will not encroach on your space. If invididuals can not respect that everyone is entitled to their personal space free from the actions of others then society has a problem.

And i will say this again. i can live with the smoking ban in bars/restaurants if they at least gave smokers some type of alternative to enjoy bars and restaurants as well.

Agreed.

'Sure, there should be some places for smokers to gather together'. No, because they want the total control and that is it. Screw that!

Who exactly is they? If I'm included in the "they" I'll say life is complicated enough. I have no wish to manage those with a bad habit. It's your habit, do as you please - just value other peoples' space and privacy and the same will be reciprocated.

DG

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:20:58 AM

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quote:

1) Do you agree you do not have a right to endanger someone else's health with your actions?

That's some sort of Stoner High School question, isn't it?

Rights, as expressed in our Declaration of Independence come from our Creator, among these are Life, Liberty, and Purfuit of Happineff".

People have FREE WILL. The will do what they want to. Everyone need to learn to deal with it. The Price of Freedom is the Risk of Other People being Free.

If you don't work and play well with others, I don't know what to suggest. Couple of hits of acid?

quote:

2) Some will say they do not need to rely on a higher authority for information. However, in my opinion, it would be foolish to dismiss decades of extensive research from a respected body such as the British Medical Association - we're not experts in every field so we need others to support us with studies (from respected bodies with integrity). What is your opinion on this?

The logical fallacy of "Appeal to Authority". I'm not going to debate IF there is a statistical result showing clear evidence of some negative impact of 2nd hand smoke. I'll go along with the numbers. That's not what I'm arguing.

I'm saying that, it'd be nice if people had the self confidence to stand up for themselves without being little whiny bitches running for a cop all the time. We could save the cops for when they're REALLY needed.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:35:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I'm saying that, it'd be nice if people had the self confidence to stand up for themselves without being little whiny bitches running for a cop all the time. We could save the cops for when they're REALLY needed.

No, it would be nice if people acted responsibly. Then there would be no need for confrontation and no need for law. Sort the problem at its root and save on the confrontation and administration. Where is the sense in brawling in a pub over a cigarette? I've got far better things to do with my time than have to get up out of my seat to ask you politely not to smoke in a non-smoking establishment and then have to go through the potential "bollocks, sit back down"...."put your cig out or I'll put it out for you" etc.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/20/2007 5:38:37 AM >

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:41:28 AM

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Lot's of comments to make on a topic I am coming into very late.
Let's start with the one that someone made about it being against their Constitutional Rights.
Abraham Lincoln stated that any form of prohibition on our personal freedoms was unconstitutional, however he also added that the locations as to using of those personal freedoms could be restricted to protect the lives of others. He knew that some items could be dangerous in a public setting such as alcohol on the highway.
You have a right to drink Alcohol, you do not have a right to be publically intoxicated where you may cause physical harm to yourself or others, and definitely you do not have the right to drink and drive, and excessive alcholism in a household with children is grounds to have the children taken by Child Protective Services. You still have the right to drink, but you could lose your children if you do it excessively in your own home.
When it comes to cigarettes the scientific studies mean very little to me, it is my personal experiences that matter most. My parents come from broken homes, all my grandparents remarries, so I was in some ways fortunate in that I had eight grandparents, and yet I was unfortunate in that I watched six of those eight die from cigarette related illnesses, the other two also died from cigarette related illnesses but my family was estranged from them and I had no contact with them and was spared watching them die. However, I have also watched three uncles and two aunts die from cigarette related illnesses, and I have one uncle right now that stopped smoking ten years ago but it was too late, the damage he had done from a four pack a day habit for forty years was too much. He is on a respirator and will die without it, they do not know how long he has with it. I smoked for two years, I gave up after my second grandparent died. I have not smoked since.
However, for three years I worked for a company that allowed smoking in the work place, and when I came home and opened my briefcase I would go into massive coughing fits from the smell of smoke that my briefcase had picked up at work. I would have to shower immediately and wash my clothes immediately, the smell was that horrendous. Even my pets would not come near me, they would hide, the smoke smell was that bad.
So, though you may have the right to smoke, and I support your right. I also support the right of the government to restrict the locations so that those who are not smokers are not subjected to the dangers of the second-hand smoke.
BTW want to speak of dangers... My father was exposed to second hand smoke as an infant, he suffers from sleep apnea, his doctor while trying to determine the cause, due to the fact he has NO OTHER reasons to be a candidate, narrowed it down to that one fact.
I too was exposed as an infant, and I too have it. SID syndrome is not the only thing you may give your child, you could give him sleep apnea which left untreated could kill your child at an early age in his adult life. Even if he never smokes or is never around second hand smoke again in his entire life. Just that exposure as a child can do that damage to him/her. Sleep apnea has been on the rise significantly in children born since the 40's when the cigarette companies began adding the chemicals to their products, before that when it was pure tobacco, the problem was almost unheard of.

Now, seatbelts... lol... Seatbelts in three accidents I have been in I have been told by the doctors and the police that they did little to save my life, what actually saved my life was my body size, and the truth was that the seatbelts actually did me more harm than good.
Accident number one, the seatbelt locking mechanism broke and I slid up through the seatbelt my head slamming into the roof of the car. I have had a single constant headache every day since for over 20 years, not multiple headaches, but one headache that varies in intensity based on stress or other factors but it never goes away. Had I not been wearing a seatbelt my size I would have been thrown forward but the air bag would have prevented any damage at all.
Accident number two, the seatbelt cut across my shoulder as we were t-boned when a lady ran a red light, the seat belt was actually responsible for the separation of my shoulder and also part of the reason I had to be cut out of the car for the locking mechanism jammed. Had the car caught on fire I would have died. Had I not been wearing the seatbelt I had had time when seeing the car coming to move and would have not been damaged as severely, again the airbags would have saved me from most of the damage.
Accident number three, a rearend, the seatbelt locking mechanism again failed and I slid into the driver's well, both my legs suffered compression damage. Had I not been wearing the seat belt I would have just been thrown forward into the airbag.
So yes, I am very hesitant to put on my seatbelt except when I go onto highway driving. I do most of the time, and I have lost 125 pounds since my heaviest, and 50 pounds since the last auto accident, but still after three serious accidents and the only serious accidents I have been in, and in all three the seatbelts failed, I am truly hesitant to trust them.

< Message edited by RobertCloud -- 1/20/2007 5:47:27 AM >

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:55:21 AM

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A quote from the Collabrative on Health and the Environment:

While some types of outdoor air pollution are decreasing, ozone and fine particle pollution from diesel engine exhaust are ongoing or increasing problems, both in the US and in other countries and regions where asthma is on the rise. Kids who engage frequently sports activity in areas of high ozone have an increased risk of asthma. Several lines of evidence suggest that diesel exhaust may cause asthma. Diesel exhaust, for example, appears to change some immune cells to a type that is linked to the development of asthma. And kids growing up along streets with heavy truck traffic are more likely to have asthma-related respiratory symptoms.
Exposure to second-hand smoke before and after birth is linked to asthma risk. But if this were a large factor, asthma rates should be declining because fewer people smoke.

http://www.healthandenvironment.org/asthma_sci

Maybe the "ban cars and trucks" arguement has some validity. i love to watch the perfect mom with baby in the stroller nose-level to the exhaust of an SUV but make a ewwww face at me for smoking.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 5:59:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

NG, i have probably said this 100 times but i'll say it again. i have no desire to go blow smoke in some non-smoker's face. i am well beyond the point of thinking we will ever be able to smoke in a public place again.

You are wasting your time trying to engage rationally with these people. You take part in an activity of which they disapprove of and they want it banned whether or not it personally effects them. If there were smoking and no smoking bars these people would walk an extra mile to the smoking bar to claim their rights to clean air were being effected.

Asthma keeps coming up as evidence of how bad secondhand smoke is yet asthma has increased dramatically while cigarette smoking has been significantly decreasing. They bring up all sorts of spurious data which could have more to do with background traffic and industrial pollution. That is not to say smoking isn't bad for ones health but their objections are more to do with puritanical disapproval than health.

adaddysgirl, I have to agree with meatcleaver here... you're banging your head on a block wall. The best you are going to get is ignorant arguements based on personal predjudices. One person has a kid with asthma and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with environment or genetics... it's all about the smokers. And take notice that so far that's the best they can do.... Not one of them has even come close to the intent of the OP... In some places they have banned carbonated drinks in schools, they have also banned certain "junk foods", in NY they have banned a certain ingrediant in foods, they have banned same-sex marriage in many states and now they are banning smoking... (and for those non-US residents that haven't been keeping up... we are talking entire STATES going non-smoking in ALL public buildings, whether they own them or not). At what point these people will ever stand up and say "HEY, I'M AN ADULT HERE!!!" I couldn't tell you... sheeple is still the best description I have.

Every person posting on this thread are assumed to be of the legal age of consent, are presumed to be able to make life decisions that affect themselves and those around them... The decide daily to get out of bed and go to work, feed the kids, dogs, birds... whatever the hell it is that they do and are.... apparently.... quite happy with letting the government shave away one little freedom after another... so long as it doesn't interfer with them feeding the freaking birds or whatever and watching their filtered television shows.... MY GOD!!! I'm living in a giant asylum!!!

The good news is adaddysgirl... when Demolition Man happens... I'll meet you in the sewers... cool???

Jewel

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:02:14 AM

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If one is to rely on personal experience then I could give a completely different perspective of smoking. Both my grandfathers smoked from their early teens to their deaths, one at 97 and the other at 99. Neither had any significant illnesses in their lives nor did their spouses who were inhaling secondhand smoke for all their married lives. Again both died of old age, 96 and 99. My father has smoked all his life without ever having a day off work ill, he is now 81, walks five miles a day to buy his newspaper and a couple of other miles if he goes to the local pub. My mother has never had a sick day in her life despite her passive smoking all her married life.

I readily accept smoking is bad for ones health and I readily accept one has to be sensitive to none smokers but what we are talking about is anti-smoker's rabid puritanism of wanting to ban people from smoking in areas where it doesn't effect anyone who doesn't consent to being exposed to smoke. As the owner of the bar I frequent says to the odd tourist who complains about the amount of smoke in his bar. When visiting Amsterdam drinking in his bar is not compulsory, there are bars enough that are smoke free, it is not his fault that the company in those bars, if there is any, is less than stimulating.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:07:57 AM

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quote:

No, it would be nice if people acted responsibly.

Well, that ain't gonna happen. So we need to deal with Reality based Reality.

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:26:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

No, it would be nice if people acted responsibly.

Well, that ain't gonna happen. So we need to deal with Reality based Reality.

I agree some people will not act responsibly. So, where a person smokes in a non-smoking establishment I have to get up out of my seat and ask him/her to put out the cigarette - akin to asking a child to act responsibly. Any one of the following may happen:

1) He/she submits to my request and implicity accepts the need for me to control/correct his/her behaviour due to their inability to do so.

2) The person refuses and we start brawling in the pub or

3) The person refuses and the barman throws him/her out of the pub or

4) They act adult enough to control their own actions rather than expect to be, and accept being, corrected by someone else (by not smoking in a non-smoking establishment).

Now, I've no wish to manage/correct the habits of people who can't abide by rules in a non-smoking establishment. I don't own you or anyone else at this moment in time so do me the courtesy of choosing number 4. I'm not about to waste my time so the alternative is the law deals with this problem - if you consider this to be "whining like bitches to the cops" then that's your call. I call it not owning and not being responsible for you.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/20/2007 6:28:00 AM >

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:41:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

.....but what we are talking about is anti-smoker's rabid puritanism of wanting to ban people from smoking in areas where it doesn't effect anyone who doesn't consent to being exposed to smoke.

And yes MC, that is truely the entire jest of the topic isn't it. If someone feels that me smoking in my home affects them, tough titties, welcome to the real world, everything someone else does, MAY have some effect on them. All the statistic spouting doesn't mean a thing, the google fanatics should take note that for every statistic supposedly proving their point, there is another supposedly proving the opposite. It hasn't got a damned thing with statistics, or causes, or proof...it has to do with personal preference and what one wants to do. There is a group who doesn't like smoking, there is a group who does...fairly simple actually. The problem seems to be that the ones who don't, think they are more important than the ones who do. Every day I witness or am affected by something someone else does, that I don't either approve of, dislike or inconveniences me, but I don't go around trying to drum up support to ban it. I think the antismokers simply need to not smoke and let the ones who want to, do just that. If the particular environment they are in bothers them, then move along, don't try to impose their wants on others. It's no different than the poster who couldn't deal with the smell of popcorn, I can't stand it either, but I don't try to ban popcorn, I just avoid it....fairly simple concept actually.

< Message edited by ScooterTrash -- 1/20/2007 6:43:46 AM >

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:43:57 AM

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quote:

I agree some people will not act responsibly. So, where a person smokes in a non-smoking establishment I have to get up out of my seat and ask him/her to put out the cigarette - akin to asking a child to act responsibly. Any one of the following may happen:

1) He/she submits to my request and implicity accepts the need for me to control/correct his/her behaviour due to their inability to do so.

I'm sorry, I didn't see a non-smoking sign, and WTF is this ashtray doing here in that case???

If you feel it's something that needs "Correction", then that's your take on it. Sounds like maybe someone could use some decaf though...

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:51:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

I agree some people will not act responsibly. So, where a person smokes in a non-smoking establishment I have to get up out of my seat and ask him/her to put out the cigarette - akin to asking a child to act responsibly. Any one of the following may happen:

1) He/she submits to my request and implicity accepts the need for me to control/correct his/her behaviour due to their inability to do so.

I'm sorry, I didn't see a non-smoking sign, and WTF is this ashtray doing here in that case???

If you feel it's something that needs "Correction", then that's your take on it. Sounds like maybe someone could use some decaf though...

You didn't see the no-smoking sign in a non-smoking establishment - the ones plastered all over the show with a cigarette and a line through? Why would there be an ash tray in a non-smoking establishment - have you brought your own or what?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 6:58:26 AM

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i'd happily sit in the asbestos-blowing section of the restaurant if they would only have a non-screaming-baby section. i'd be happier still if there were a non-blaring-rap-music lane at the gas pumps. However, i firmly believe that babies can scream and rap music blare in people's homes even if the sound wafts my direction from time to time.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 7:12:53 AM

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With all due respect, if the things you mention bother you then start a campaign or a movement to do something about it.

Do not expect me to put up with your bad habits in a non-smoking establishment on the basis that you have to put up with someone elses' bad habits. If you have a problem with someone then take it up with him/her - I am not responsible for the third party who is pissing you off. I'll respect your personal space, you respect mine. The third party does not enter into this.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 7:18:35 AM

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what gave you the impression i would ever smoke in a non-smoking establishment???? Where i live i have never seen anyone light-up in a non-smoking establishment. Maybe Southerners are more polite?

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 7:23:25 AM

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The discussion I was having with FB concerned a non-smoking establishment. You passed comment so it was reasonable to assume you had read the discussion and appreciated the content.

You have no wish to light up in a non-smoking establishment - great. I have no wish to pass judgement on whatever you do in your home or a smoking establishment.

I'd say we have a deal.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 7:40:21 AM

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to NO ONE in particular

Sheesh... not my fault the 'reply' just follows the former post. Maybe a cigarette would calm some people down a bit...

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Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/20/2007 7:42:30 AM

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quote:

You didn't see the no-smoking sign in a non-smoking establishment - the ones plastered all over the show with a cigarette and a line through? Why would there be an ash tray in a non-smoking establishment - have you brought your own or what?

I didn't offhand, see the precondition that it *WAS* in fact a non-smoking establishment.

I've been discussing the general case throughout the thread. I regret any confusion I may have caused.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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